All Will Be Made Alive

Motar

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I like 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

I like that exhortation, too, Dex. Paul’s whole admonition to the church in Thessalonica concerning Christian living is compelling:

“Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.” (1Thessalonians 5:16-22, NIV)
 

Dexter Sinister

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I still prefer the rolling phrases of the KJV, even though the rather archaic language (English has changed a lot since 1611) makes some things a little harder to understand. It's what I grew up with and is still the version most familiar to me.
 

Motar

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I still prefer the rolling phrases of the KJV, even though the rather archaic language (English has changed a lot since 1611) makes some things a little harder to understand. It's what I grew up with and is still the version most familiar to me.

I completely understand, Dex. I prefer the NIV because it is the Bible version placed in my hand by the One who called me out of darkness into His wonderful light!
 

Dexter Sinister

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I have no concept of what that statement means, I have no belief in anything that could be called "the One." I got my KJV version from my mother in my early teens, because I asked her for one as a birthday gift. She was a believer and happy to oblige. I am not a believer, in fact I think one of the surer routes to atheism is to read and try to understand that book in its entirety, but if you want to make sense of much of the contemporary world it's a book you have to know, and I'd figured that out by age 14.
 

Motar

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I have no concept of what that statement means, I have no belief in anything that could be called "the One." I got my KJV version from my mother in my early teens, because I asked her for one as a birthday gift. She was a believer and happy to oblige. I am not a believer, in fact I think one of the surer routes to atheism is to read and try to understand that book in its entirety, but if you want to make sense of much of the contemporary world it's a book you have to know, and I'd figured that out by age 14.

Your testimony blesses my heart, Dex.

My prior statement is based on 1 Peter 2:9.

The historical context of this verse involves the Roman desecration and demolition of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The apostle Peter writes to the dispersed believers a word of encouragement concerning the holy, living, indestructible dwelling God assembled to replace it:

"If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 3:8, KJV)

Christ is the chief corner stone of the church (believers), the current dwelling place of God by His Spirit.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Well, I agree that the Romans seriously messed up the temple, that's a historical fact attested to by non-biblical sources, but I think the rest of that's just made up and has nothing to do with reality. I became convinced long ago that religious belief is a delusion. It's a delusion approved of and supported by every civilization I've ever heard of, but that has nothing to do with its truth content. The core claim, that there's at least one supernatural being that has some interest in us, I think is almost certainly false, there are no such beings. From gods to tooth fairies, they're all human inventions and have no reality outside the realm of ideas. That seems on the evidence the conclusion most likely to be correct, to me. A lifetime in the sciences has borne in on me the knowledge that I must never lose sight of the fact that I might be wrong, so I will not dogmatically state there is no deity, I think that's logically indefensible, but I will state that I don't believe there is. But the difference between "I believe there isn't" and "I don't believe there is" is a philosophical subtlety that's lost on many people.
 

Mowich

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Well, I agree that the Romans seriously messed up the temple, that's a historical fact attested to by non-biblical sources, but I think the rest of that's just made up and has nothing to do with reality. I became convinced long ago that religious belief is a delusion. It's a delusion approved of and supported by every civilization I've ever heard of, but that has nothing to do with its truth content. The core claim, that there's at least one supernatural being that has some interest in us, I think is almost certainly false, there are no such beings. From gods to tooth fairies, they're all human inventions and have no reality outside the realm of ideas. That seems on the evidence the conclusion most likely to be correct, to me. A lifetime in the sciences has borne in on me the knowledge that I must never lose sight of the fact that I might be wrong, so I will not dogmatically state there is no deity, I think that's logically indefensible, but I will state that I don't believe there is. But the difference between "I believe there isn't" and "I don't believe there is" is a philosophical subtlety that's lost on many people.


Well put, Dex. Good to see you posting again.
 

Mowich

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To my understanding, there is 100% recovery in Christ.


What understanding would that be? It most certainly is not backed up by FACTS as there are hundreds of Christ embracing Christians dropping dead all over the world. I guess they just aren't the ones that your christ is interested in saving?
 

Dexter Sinister

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Well put, Dex. Good to see you posting again.
Thanks, been pretty busy with other things until recently (three new grandchildren, for instance), and this place seemed infested with people I found intolerable, I wasn't having any fun being pursued from post to post by lunatics, so I went away for a while. But the worst offenders have been timed out (long past due, in my not very humble opinion), so I decided to dip my toe into the water again.
 

Cliffy

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Thanks, been pretty busy with other things until recently (three new grandchildren, for instance), and this place seemed infested with people I found intolerable, I wasn't having any fun being pursued from post to post by lunatics, so I went away for a while. But the worst offenders have been timed out (long past due, in my not very humble opinion), so I decided to dip my toe into the water again.
There are plenty of offensive people on these forums still. I gave up years ago trying to reason with them. Most are beyond reason.


BTW: You forgot to mention that most of the old testament is plagiarized from The Sumerian text, The Epoch of Gilgamesh, which was probably plagiarized from much earlier texts.
 

Dexter Sinister

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I dunno that *most* of the OT is plagiarized from the Epic of Gilgamesh, but certainly some of it is. Gilgamesh might have been stolen too, I suppose, never read anything about that, but at some point somebody must have invented an original story.
 

Cliffy

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I dunno that *most* of the OT is plagiarized from the Epic of Gilgamesh, but certainly some of it is. Gilgamesh might have been stolen too, I suppose, never read anything about that, but at some point somebody must have invented an original story.


It is my belief the origin of all the flood stories from around the world, originated with the melting of the ice caps after the ice age. Today, the vast majority of people live in proximity to the oceans as they are the most abundant and easy sources of food. During the last ice age, the sea level was 400 feet lower than today and most cultures and civilizations would have been in the flood plain. Quite a few civilization remains have been found under the sea levels of today.
 
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Motar

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What understanding would that be? It most certainly is not backed up by FACTS as there are hundreds of Christ embracing Christians dropping dead all over the world. I guess they just aren't the ones that your christ is interested in saving?

Hello Mowich. How good of you to share your thoughts with us! The 100% recovery rate in Christ which I referenced in my earlier post was from sin. Christians are not immune to the physical ills of this world. Our physical nature is prone to deterioration and death like all humankind. In our spiritual nature however, we experience the ongoing renewal of the Spirit. This ongoing renewal is a process known in the Bible as sanctification and it is effected through exposure to truth (John 17:17).
 

Motar

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Well, I agree that the Romans seriously messed up the temple, that's a historical fact attested to by non-biblical sources ... A lifetime in the sciences has borne in on me the knowledge that I must never lose sight of the fact that I might be wrong, so I will not dogmatically state there is no deity, I think that's logically indefensible, but I will state that I don't believe there is. But the difference between "I believe there isn't" and "I don't believe there is" is a philosophical subtlety that's lost on many people.

I like your apologetic approach to the historicity of the Bible, Dex. It is wisdom to speak in terms of probability rather than certainty in matters of historical and scientific inquiry. I appreciate your philosophical thinking. It was an area of interest and study for me a few years ago.
 

Motar

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It is my belief the origin of all the flood stories from around the world, originated with the melting of the ice caps after the ice age. Today, the vast majority of people live in proximity to the oceans as they are the most abundant and easy sources of food. During the last ice age, the sea level was 400 feet lower than today and most cultures and civilizations would have been in the flood plain. Quite a few civilization remains have been found under the sea levels of today.

I am glad to hear about your beliefs and the evidence you present in their defense, Cliffy.
 

Dexter Sinister

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It is my belief the origin of all the flood stories from around the world, originated with the melting of the ice caps after the ice age.
That's interesting, I've often pondered that idea. Almost all cultures have a flood tale of some sort, but when your geographic horizons are limited by how far you can travel on foot, a fairly local flood in contemporary terms will look to you like the whole world is flooded, and in a sense at least it is, *your* whole world is flooded. I can think of four places where the biblical flood myth might have originated, and the important clue is the biblical claim that the fountains of the great deep opened up. That suggests an overland flood, and looking at a map and knowing some geology offers some tantalizing ideas. The Strait of Gibraltar hasn't always been open, much of what is now the Mediterranean would have been a plain, and when Africa and Europe rotated away from each other and the strait opened, there'd have been a spectacular waterfall and flood. If memory serves, geology places that event back well beyond human origins, but rising sea levels after the Ice Age would certainly would have poured more water into the Mediterranean and flooded all its coastal regions.

Another possibility is the Red Sea and/or the Persian Gulf. They're fairly significant bodies of water now, but the entrances to them, the Bab el-Mandab and the Strait of Hormuz, are relatively narrow and shallow and would have been dry land at the height of the Ice Age. Rising sea levels would have produced spectacular waterfalls and flooding from there too.

The third is the Black Sea/Sea of Marmara area. Again there are fairly narrow, shallow channels entering them from the Mediterranean, which would have been dry at the height of the Ice Age.

They're all in the right general area to produce huge regional floods that could have been known to the ancient peoples of the area. It may also have been much more localized too, and the most obvious fourth candidate there I think is one of those once in ten thousand years floods we've been hearing about from other places lately, around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. That also places it near the origins of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

That there was a significant flood of some sort in ancient times is almost a certainty, but unless it was really gigantic, normal weathering processes would have erased most of the signs of it by now.
 

Cliffy

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Motar

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There are plenty of offensive people on these forums still. I gave up years ago trying to reason with them. Most are beyond reason.

This is a sincere question, Cliffy. What in these forums offends you?
 

Dexter Sinister

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I think the question is who, not what, and I'm sure that's a long list. A lot of people use the anonymity of places like this to be far more rude and offensive than they'd be in real life, though there's at least one poster I've seem claim to be exactly as rude and offensive in real life as here, and seems proud of it. That eludes my understanding, but some people aren't nice, some people can't deal with being challenged, some people don't believe they could be wrong, and some people don't know how to have a civilized argument. It's "I'm right and you're stupid."
 
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