Abortion is harmful to the economy

[Praxius]

Of course not..... murderers always have a justification for their actions.

Yeah, and the Moral Nazis always have some emotional appeal excuse to try and make themselves out to be the good guys in order to force their ways on everybody else..... all for the greater good they say.

Pssh... many of us seen that greater good for the majority of the last number of centuries. It didn't work then, it's not working now, it'll never work in the future, unless you decide to execute everyone who differs from you to weed out the competition in the moral high road.

 

[Praxius]

Suppose we abort you, would you like that?

Meh, it wouldn't matter to me, I'd arrive on the planet eventually in one fashion or another, and since I wasn't aborted, it doesn't matter.

Suppose I am to "be" aborted, would I like that?

If it was true that you would never have a chance to exist on this planet, that might cause a problem for you, but if that was the case, you would have died before you could even comprehend your own existence, so that too wouldn't matter.

And I guess "aborting" you is a good thing for you and people around you?

Once again, it wouldn't have made a difference, as their own lives would have continued on without my involvement as it currently stands. I pretty sure the entire world won't collapse on itself if I wasn't born, just as it wouldn't if you wern't born.

That's Life..... that's death.... those are the chances we all face in our lives and our existence. Life isn't fair and neither are some of the decisions made in life.

Who do you blame for the kids who die so young from cancer or other major illnesses?

Oh you don't, probably because in those areas, apparently that was God's plan..... so wouldn't it also be God's plan if someone was aborted?

No?

How do you know?

You don't?

Funny thing is that I never seen anything in the bible talking about abortions in great detail.

Oh but don't forget, not everybody believes or follows the Bible or the Christian religion, and they don't have to, nor should, follow your faith or your morals, nor should I or anybody else unless we so choose to.

There's that silly thing again, "Choice"

You think, "babies should come when wanted" but guess what, do we go homeless because we want to?

Yup, you're homeless because you have no family that loves you and will help you when you're down. If it's not that, then you slacked off in your life, blew all your money on drugs or prostitution, couldn't hold a job, never listened to your parents, which is why you got thrown out on the street in the first place..... so who's fault again?

I know about baby's suffering and our neglegence do fulfill that very duty we so need in this world but that just tells me that you and I are scums because our society [ex. Euro, America, industrialized nation] is incapable of delivering love and care for all* children at need even with all these "extra" wealth we have.

You got extra wealth? Throw it this way and maybe you can buy my opinion.

So yeah, I guess aborted babies are, "medical waste" like the wasted food on your plate you don't like to finish off.

Pretty much.

But then again, who are YOU to decide babies shouldn't come to this world?

Funny how hypocritical some people can be..... Who are You do decide otherwise? Nobody, that's who..... just as I have no place to tell you how to run your life and to make the decisions you make in your life, you have no place to do the same to others..... I am who I am, and I will make the decisions that affect my life and those around me, just as I will leave others to decide how to live their own lives, just as I am not telling you how to live your life.

I'm not forcing you to go have abortions, I sure as hell don't need you telling me I can't if/when the time comes.

Why do you interfere with the nature of things?

Yet the old man who was left brain dead on life support (Preventing his "Natural" death) due to his family's wishes wasn't interfering with the Natur of things? They claimed taking him off of life support would have quickened his death and wouldn't have been natural, even though long before Life support systems were invented, he would have died naturally in the first place, but now we have a society in which will leave you in a bed as a vegitable because someone thinks you're still alive.

How is that brain dead man being kept alive by a breathing tube anymore alive then a fetus being fed and fueled by its mother's own body?

Cut the old man from the life support and he dies.... cut the fetus from the mother and it too will die. If you can not survive on your own means and body, then you're not really all that alive now are you?

It works both ways meh deer.

We have interfered and corrupted our nature to the very end of its limit which is causing all sort of problem on Africans

Maybe if those Christian groups who are trying to help the poor people in Africa actually educated them on safe sex rather then abstenece, and taught them how to grow their own food, get their own jobs, etc.... rather then mooching off the donations of people in other countries (Which never solves anything but the creation of more un-educated moochers) then there wouldn't be as big of a problem over there in the first place.

and so many inhabitants on earth but now people who have opinions like yours want to corrupt humanity and make it worse like we did to earth.

Yes, people like us who want to corrupt people into thinking for themselves and making the decisions that best suit their own lives..... how evil of us to do something like that.

We've already seen what religions can do to the planet and the people.... they have failed, they are still failing..... and when something doesn't work for 2000 years or so, you'd think it'd be time to start thinking differently.

And thus I do, and I will remain doing so, regardless of what you think.

And you speak of "circumstances which women might face." I'm sorry but we all face circumstances. But you know what? I believe that if you go through a challenge, it is another job well done and in the end of the day or your life, you know what you could have done instead of just "eliminating the problem for the sake of your comfort."

Yeah well we all go through our own trials in life and we all approach those challenges in our own ways in order to make it through..... your way might not be my way or anybody else's way, and vice versa.

One method may not work in many other situations and nobody should be restricted to one choice based on a couple of people's moral hang ups.

 

[Praxius]

No friend, that doesn't matter. It is not my happiness but of life that could and should be secured. I am not here to assume each individuals and their reason for abortion, I am here share moral need for everyone because I don't believe possible-life should be crushed due to wrong choices each person have made. And yes, I oppose even rape cases for abortion. Do you think that aborting life is simply a way to fix a problem? I obvious don't think you do but you know what, abortion is an excuse which the society uses to escape what is inevitable: negligence and avoiding problems.

Tell you what.... go get yourself raped in a park or an alley in the middle of the night, have your vagina torned to crap from the violent attack, get beaten, bruised, lose all your sense of security and esteme, become sick and pregnant with this rape spawn, have your head filled with continual thoughts of the attack and the fetus growing inside you.... think about what it'll be like raising that child that looks just like the bastard who raped you.... and if you give it up for adoption, think about what it'll be like living everyday knowing that rapist and his kid is out there and eventually one day, that kid will come knocking back on your door to know more about you and why you gave him or her up..... all the while they look just like the person who raped you and screwed your whole life up in the first place.......

..... and then tell me about it simply just solving a "problem"

I am a male, have not been raped, but I have had countless friends and ex's who were raped in the past, and I know very damn well what they does to them and how it changes their life, and I sure as hell don't want to see those people have to be forced to deal with much more then what they already went through, just to meet your Moral Meter on the world.

Depending on what occured during the rape and at what age, there is a high risk of suicide in women.... throw this forced decision on them about not being able to get rid of this rape spawn growing inside them, and you will see an increase in suicides..... and then you have "two deaths" instead of one, by your mentality.

But then again, when I wake up tomorrow, I won't be helping neglected children or babies for that matter. Nor will outstanding number of Canadians. So let's just have simple and clean abortion for sake of the mother and the babies. let's just abort and solve. Let the society be free to do what to life and to death, let us kill and be happy anyways because tomorrow, the life will be the same anyways.
Good night.

Makes sense, I'm glad you finally came to that conclusion.

Tell you what.... how about you put an effort into saving the lives of those on this planet which already have started life, so that life in general will be better for those coming in the future. There's so much BS going on in this world, and many can't even be bothered to try and figure it out, so they'll go and put all their effort into those not even born yet.... that makes so much sense.

 

[Praxius]

I was referring to a heartbeat. The earliest you can detect one is about 6 weeks and 6 days past ovulation. Nevertheless, if you want to abort for conception purposes I suppose you pick whatever early date you want. At that early stage that is the only reason. But the real heartaches of the issue is at the 18+ weeks stage, where women aren't aborting for reasons of contraception but the pro-lifers continue to frame the issue as if that's what is happening.

Instead of focusing on a heartbeat, which doesn't prove a life... how about focusing on brain patterns and development.

At what stage would the brain be developed and have enough cells to be able to make a brain fart or create a thought? Then one has to prove or show if the fetus at that stage actually is using thought and conciousness.

If there is no thought or conciousness, then there is no ability to feel pain, let alone death.

 

[Ariadne]

Instead of focusing on a heartbeat, which doesn't prove a life... how about focusing on brain patterns and development.

At what stage would the brain be developed and have enough cells to be able to make a brain fart or create a thought? Then one has to prove or show if the fetus at that stage actually is using thought and conciousness.

If there is no thought or conciousness, then there is no ability to feel pain, let alone death.

It's possible to define life as a heartbeat, or possibly a thought. A computer can simulate having a thought ... but that's not life in a human sense because it is not an independent thought; merely a programmed response. Would a programmed response be sufficient to constitute consciousness?

 

[Praxius]

It's possible to define life as a heartbeat, or possibly a thought. A computer can simulate having a thought ... but that's not life in a human sense because it is not an independent thought; merely a programmed response. Would a programmed response be sufficient to constitute consciousness?

Nope, but scientists have cloned and reproduced hearts that beat in a lab.... is that life?

Researchers create beating heart in lab
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/researchers-create-beating-heart-lab-15218.html

There doesn't need to be a brain involved to make a heart beat.... take people on life support who are brain dead, where the life support system is the only thing keeping them alive.

 

[Ariadne]

Nope, but scientists have cloned and reproduced hearts that beat in a lab.... is that life?

Researchers create beating heart in lab
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/researchers-create-beating-heart-lab-15218.html

There doesn't need to be a brain involved to make a heart beat.... take people on life support who are brain dead, where the life support system is the only thing keeping them alive.

Okay, so we have authentic hearts, artificial hearts, and hearts that beat artificially. We have authentic thought, and artificial thought. Maybe the criteria for defining life needs to be authentic human thought and/or heart beat.

 

[ShintoMale]

a beating heart does not give fetuses rights. rights do not depend on having a beating heart

 

[Socrates the Greek]

All logically driven people are profilers, it is know that the Abortion topic is split almost 50 – 50 across the whole country.
The question is who is right and who is wrong.
We all are entitled to our own opinion on this subject, but limited in how far we can try to persuade others from their core belief.
We look at all the posts on this forum and we see that the prochoice speaks as if they hold the upper chamber of moral authority. NOT THE CASE AT ALL!!!!!!
A woman who got pregnant by mistake for what ever reason she and only she has the indisputable right to choose if she is able to continue with here pregnancy or aborted it.
Children that are born from drug addicted mothers or alcoholic mothers who are poor and have absolutely no means or resources to raise these children should not be forced by a bible thumper to deal with a child that will suffer immensely after birth. Most bad criminals are orphans and the byproduct of a start that was not right for them.
So, you pro-lifers hold your bibles up high and tell the world that you are so perfect you would rather see a man suffer then relief him or she from their misery.
That is the true definition a coward.

 

[Risus]

. Most bad criminals are orphans and the byproduct of a start that was not right for them.

Kindly show some proof of this rather than just making a broad inaccurate statement...

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Kindly show some proof of this rather than just making a broad inaccurate statement...

Hey Risus I knew I would find you here. I can tell you one thing look at the stats bellow and the amount of at one time unwanted life is hugely documented.



Every 15 SECONDS, another child becomes an AIDS orphan in Africa1
Every DAY 5,760 more children become orphans
Every YEAR 2,102,400 more children become orphans (in Africa alone)
143,000,0002 Orphans in the world today spend an average of 10 years3 in an orphanage or foster home
Approximately 250,000 children are adopted annually, but…
Every YEAR 14,050,000 children still grow up as orphans and AGE OUT4 of the system
Every DAY 38,493 children AGE OUT
Every 2.2 SECONDS, another orphan child AGES OUT with no family to belong to and no place to call home
In Ukraine and Russia 10% -15% of children who age out of an orphanage commit suicide before age 18.
60% of the girls are lured into prostitution. 70% of the boys become hardened criminals.5
Many of these children accept job offers that ultimately result in their being sold as slaves. Millions of girls
are sex slaves today, simply because they were unfortunate enough to grow up as orphans.
Reliable statistics are difficult to find, even the sources often list only estimates, and street children are
rarely included. But even if these figures are exaggerated by double, it is still an unacceptable tragedy that
over a Million children would still become orphans every year, and every year 7 Million children would still
grow to adulthood as orphans with no one to belong to and no place to call home. They are totally
vulnerable and easily fall prey to predators and slave recruiters.
The disastrous outcomes of most children who age out of institutional care is evidence that these
children don’t know the meaning of love, and are unable to comprehend God’s love. Receiving Jesus Christ
makes no sense and too many of them will never have a chance to become adopted children of God.

The Christian Response
“The Christian solution for this tragedy is to give orphan children the good news they really long to hear”:




WHAT A LOAD OF SH!TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT ON THAT STATEMENT ABOVE.

The F churches are filthy reach; they have BILLIONS OF DOLLARS STASHED AND MANY OF THESE MINISTERS CALLED (PREACHERS) they drive in F ING ROLLS ROYCE’S AND THEY DON’T GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT ABUNDANT CHILDREN. THEY ARE F UCKING HYPOCRITES. :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:

 

[Risus]

Hey Risus I knew I would find you here. I can tell you one thing look at the stats bellow and the amount of at one time unwanted life is hugely documented.



Every 15 SECONDS, another child becomes an AIDS orphan in Africa1
Every DAY 5,760 more children become orphans
Every YEAR 2,102,400 more children become orphans (in Africa alone)
143,000,0002 Orphans in the world today spend an average of 10 years3 in an orphanage or foster home
Approximately 250,000 children are adopted annually, but…
Every YEAR 14,050,000 children still grow up as orphans and AGE OUT4 of the system
Every DAY 38,493 children AGE OUT
Every 2.2 SECONDS, another orphan child AGES OUT with no family to belong to and no place to call home
In Ukraine and Russia 10% -15% of children who age out of an orphanage commit suicide before age 18.
60% of the girls are lured into prostitution. 70% of the boys become hardened criminals.5
Many of these children accept job offers that ultimately result in their being sold as slaves. Millions of girls
are sex slaves today, simply because they were unfortunate enough to grow up as orphans.
Reliable statistics are difficult to find, even the sources often list only estimates, and street children are
rarely included. But even if these figures are exaggerated by double, it is still an unacceptable tragedy that
over a Million children would still become orphans every year, and every year 7 Million children would still
grow to adulthood as orphans with no one to belong to and no place to call home. They are totally
vulnerable and easily fall prey to predators and slave recruiters.
The disastrous outcomes of most children who age out of institutional care is evidence that these
children don’t know the meaning of love, and are unable to comprehend God’s love. Receiving Jesus Christ
makes no sense and too many of them will never have a chance to become adopted children of God.

The Christian Response
“The Christian solution for this tragedy is to give orphan children the good news they really long to hear”:




WHAT A LOAD OF SH!TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT ON THAT STATEMENT ABOVE.

The F churches are filthy reach; they have BILLIONS OF DOLLARS STASHED AND MANY OF THESE MINISTERS CALLED (PREACHERS) they drive in F ING ROLLS ROYCE’S AND THEY DON’T GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT ABUNDANT CHILDREN. THEY ARE F UCKING HYPOCRITES. :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:

In all that verbage you just posted I don't see any reference to your original comment that most bad criminals are orphans. If you make a statement, prove it...

 

[Socrates the Greek]

In all that verbage you just posted I don't see any reference to your original comment that most bad criminals are orphans. If you make a statement, prove it...

Risus, my pal I will get you a link, but keep in mind that criminals have become criminals because they were abandoned in a very young age. In many cases some of these children have committed suicide because life had nothing to offer them. They would have been better off DEAD DURING THEIR FIRST THREE MONTHS OF INCUBATION THAN COMING INTO A LIFE THAT HAS VERY LITTLE FOR THEM AND IN MANY CASES NOTHING FOR THEM.

 

[Risus]

Risus, my pal I will get you a link, but keep in mind that criminals have become criminals because they were abandoned in a very young age. In many cases some of these children have committed suicide because life had nothing to offer them. They would have been better off DEAD DURING THEIR FIRST THREE MONTHS OF INCUBATION THAN COMING INTO A LIFE THAT HAS VERY LITTLE FOR THEM AND IN MANY CASES NOTHING FOR THEM.

That is a load of crap.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

That is a load of crap.

My good pal in the world these unfortunate human being CAME FROM AND LIVE IN, THAT IS NOT CRAP RISUS, THAT IS HARSH REALITY MY GOOD FRIEND. :-x

 

[Risus]

My good pal in the world these unfortunate human being CAME FROM AND LIVE IN, THAT IS NOT CRAP RISUS, THAT IS HARSH REALITY MY GOOD FRIEND. :-x

I'm waiting for that link... by the way, Paul Bernardo was not an orphan. Also, many orphans have made a great life for themselves. Are you saying their life is not worth anything?? I think you need to re-evaluate your values.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

No friend, that doesn't matter. It is not my happiness but of life that could and should be secured. I am not here to assume each individuals and their reason for abortion, I am here share moral need for everyone because I don't believe possible-life should be crushed due to wrong choices each person have made. And yes, I oppose even rape cases for abortion. Do you think that aborting life is simply a way to fix a problem? I obvious don't think you do but you know what, abortion is an excuse which the society uses to escape what is inevitable: negligence and avoiding problems.

But then again, when I wake up tomorrow, I won't be helping neglected children or babies for that matter. Nor will outstanding number of Canadians. So let's just have simple and clean abortion for sake of the mother and the babies. let's just abort and solve. Let the society be free to do what to life and to death, let us kill and be happy anyways because tomorrow, the life will be the same anyways.
Good night.

On your last coment that is precisely the point which needs to be looked at here seriously. All no abortionists don’t get up in the morning and go out to help these forgotten life’s, it takes to much work, it is much easier to yak yak yak than volunteer to help life’s who have fallen in societies mercy.
But, these forgotten life’s in silence they wish they were not a part of this unforgiving miserable, adversarial, self serving world and in turn it causes most of these forgotten and abandoned life’s to turn against humanity.
And that my dear forum friend makes any one who wants to yak on the subject in pro fashion look bad in the eyes of progress of forgotten and abundant or orphan children. :angryfire:

 

[Socrates the Greek]

I'm waiting for that link... by the way, Paul Bernardo was not an orphan. Also, many orphans have made a great life for themselves. Are you saying their life is not worth anything?? I think you need to re-evaluate your values.

I do agree that all orphans never see the same outcome in life. No I am not suggesting for a minute that some orphans their lives are worth nothing. An orphan is an orphan because he or she has no one to care for them, therefore their life’s are stuck in a mode witch doesn’t allow them to get a brake, instead society labels them as drug addicts as prostitutes, as car thieves, as robbers, and so on. So, were is the prochoice kind harts here that like to beech and protest to let them come into a 100% for them a wrong place at the wrong time, while disaster is the imminent reality for some of them my good pal Risus.

 

[Risus]

I do agree that all orphans never see the same outcome in life. No I am not suggesting for a minute that some orphans their lives are worth nothing. An orphan is an orphan because he or she has no one to care for them, therefore their life’s are stuck in a mode witch doesn’t allow them to get a brake, instead society labels them as drug addicts as prostitutes, as car thieves, as robbers, and so on. So, were is the prochoice kind harts here that like to beech and protest to let them come into a 100% for them a wrong place at the wrong time, while disaster is the imminent reality for some of them my good pal Risus.

Get your thoughts straight. First you say that orphan's lives are worth something and then you are labelling them as prostitutes, thieves, etc.

Also there is impending disaster for some kids who have both parents, too, so your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Also, how do you think I am your good pal???8O

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Get your thoughts straight. First you say that orphan's lives are worth something and then you are labelling them as prostitutes, thieves, etc.

Also there is impending disaster for some kids who have both parents, too, so your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Also, how do you think I am your good pal???8O

Risus,
I am not labeling them as such, pay close attention my good pal, I am simply saying that the do-goodderss of pro choice beech and protest, but not one of them or maybe with the exception of a small number that volunteer their time to help a desuetude human being, the rest of them sit and yak yak all day long lets protect life. After life is born and life reaches the age of 20 with out a home with out anyone to care for them then societies do-gooder bible prolife thumps call them prostitutes drug addicts and so on, pay attention man, I am not the denigrator, I am the protector that doesn’t want to see a desuetude human life which could have been prevented.