A spanked child may be a better adult

[lone wolf]

Charges ... OR convictions. Amazing how statistics get manipulated to suit a cause....

Maybe that low-crime Nirvana would be a good place to put up a juvenile detention centre.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/01/10/000110fantino.html

 

[Ron in Regina]

Funny you should mention that. I remember in 1998 (or thereabouts) Britain brought in strict gun control, they banned handguns.

The far right, the gun lobby in USA pounced on it, claiming that as a result of banning handguns and the strict gun control enacted, there was a huge increase in crime in UK.

The far right still uses the same argument in explaining how gun control leads to an increase in crime. What they conveniently leave out is that in 1998 UK carried out a complete overall of its justice system. They changed the crime statistics from number of convictions to number of reported crimes. The huge increase in crime statistics was due to this change, not the result of handgun ban as the far right in USA still claims.

But we did not change the way crime is reported in Canada. Statistics may show just the charges and convictions. So that means that charges and convictions have been steadily dropping for the past couple of decades or more.

And this tells you that crime is on the rise? Amazing.

I still don't think this Thread has anything to do with the Left-Right Political
Spectrum thing.....and again I can only speak anecdotally....but my experience
is that most people I know (& this could very well be a local thing) don't even
bother to report most crimes any more unless they need a file# for insurance
purposes....assuming the deductible is less than the value of goods missing,
and that their insurance rates don't increase too much over a report.

On December 30th (eight days ago) someone went to cut across a solid
yellow line to turn into a gas station, got caught in the ruts, and ended up
sliding towards my car in my lane (on the wrong side of the road for them),
and the end result was that my drivers door is caved in and the SUV took
off without my being able to get a plate number.

The Police stated that because nobody was hurt, and that both vehicles
where still drivable....that they won't come out and won't issue a file number.
Does that mean that no crime occurred or was reported? How would this fit
into any crime statistics with respect to increasing or decreasing crime rates?
I think this is an example of our decreasing crime rates.

Oh yeah....and apparently the crime rates are dropping out here on the
Prairies, and in the City of Regina also.

Anyway, this thread title is, "A spanked child may be a better adult."

 

[justinmb]

as I have said before statistics only cover quantifiable data convictions, court dates arrest, dead bodies that are found that does not accurately reflect what is going on around the majority of Canada most are not caught or charged there fore it does not go into the stats. I see more vandalism today than i did ten years ago that tels me its on the rise. trust your own eys not what the government tells you or do you belive we pay less taxes now to.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

as I have said before statistics only cover quantifiable data convictions, court dates arrest, dead bodies that are found that does not accurately reflect what is going on around the majority of Canada most are not caught or charged there fore it does not go into the stats. I see more vandalism today than i did ten years ago that tels me its on the rise. trust your own eys not what the government tells you or do you belive we pay less taxes now to.

We may not pay less tax now, but what we keep after paying taxes is much more than what we kept 50 years ago, even accounting for inflation. I put up statistics about this in the thread where we discussed the life 50 years ago as opposed to life today.

So we may not pay less taxes now, but we certainly are much richer, more prosperous compared to 50 years ago.

As to statistics, how do you know that what the statistics say is not what is happening in most of Canada? Do you have any evidence for that? How do you know that most are not caught or charged? Do you have any statistics showing how may are caught and charged today as opposed to say, 20 or 30 ears ago?

Anybody can throw around any kind of personal opinion. Substantiating it is a different matter altogether.

As to vandalism, I have seen no vandalism in the area where I live. Then based upon that should I conclude that there is no vandalism in Canada?

 

[lone wolf]

When did spanking become vandalism?

 

[countryboy]

And just what is the difference between spanking and ‘beating the crap out of your kids’? The difference is one of quantity, not of quality. The difference is one of degree, not of kind.

That is why spanking can get out of hand and turn into child abuse. Basically the two are same thing, it all depends to what stage it is carried out. Initial stages it is spanking, carry it too far and it becomes child abuse.

And kissing someone goodbye at the airport could turn into public sex, if you carry it too far.

Likewise with shaking one's hand...it could turn into a broken arm if you carry it too far.

Hugging your child could turn into a case of death by smothering if you carry it too far.

Giving your child a bath could turn into death by drowing if you carry it too far.

Eating food could turn into death by gluttony if you carry it too far.

A walk in the fresh Canadian winter air could turn into death by hypothermia if you carry it too far.

Accelerating as you enter a highway could turn into death by speeding if you carry it too far.

Sitting in front of a computer and googling every subject that pops into your head could turn into death by insanity if you carry it too far.

Not drinking any liquid could turn into death by dehydration if you carry it too far.

Nicking yourself with a razor could turn into death by a thousand cuts if you carry it too far.

Taking a simple example of something that has been done for hundreds, if not thousands of years by loving parents as a means of training their children (such as spanking) and making it sound like a horrendous crime could turn into a completely idiotic statement, but only if you carry it too far.

 

[JLM]

I still don't think this Thread has anything to do with the Left-Right Political
Spectrum thing.....and again I can only speak anecdotally....but my experience
is that most people I know (& this could very well be a local thing) don't even
bother to report most crimes any more unless they need a file# for insurance
purposes....assuming the deductible is less than the value of goods missing,
and that their insurance rates don't increase too much over a report.

On December 30th (eight days ago) someone went to cut across a solid
yellow line to turn into a gas station, got caught in the ruts, and ended up
sliding towards my car in my lane (on the wrong side of the road for them),
and the end result was that my drivers door is caved in and the SUV took
off without my being able to get a plate number.

The Police stated that because nobody was hurt, and that both vehicles
where still drivable....that they won't come out and won't issue a file number.
Does that mean that no crime occurred or was reported? How would this fit
into any crime statistics with respect to increasing or decreasing crime rates?
I think this is an example of our decreasing crime rates.

Oh yeah....and apparently the crime rates are dropping out here on the
Prairies, and in the City of Regina also.

Anyway, this thread title is, "A spanked child may be a better adult."

Statistics have their place and there are some places where they are valid, like weather, or prices, or vital statistics and a lot of scientific events, sports scores- anything where a total record is kept but things like human behaviour can't be measured by statistics for the simple reason that most of the events pertaining to them aren't recorded. Take a small village where there is no local law enforcement, unless it's something like murder, rape, kidnapping or bank robbery, the "statistics are likely to show zero crime rate.

 

[JLM]

And kissing someone goodbye at the airport could turn into public sex, if you carry it too far.

Likewise with shaking one's hand...it could turn into a broken arm if you carry it too far.

Hugging your child could turn into a case of death by smothering if you carry it too far.

Giving your child a bath could turn into death by drowing if you carry it too far.

Eating food could turn into death by gluttony if you carry it too far.

A walk in the fresh Canadian winter air could turn into death by hypothermia if you carry it too far.

Accelerating as you enter a highway could turn into death by speeding if you carry it too far.

Sitting in front of a computer and googling every subject that pops into your head could turn into death by insanity if you carry it too far.

Not drinking any liquid could turn into death by dehydration if you carry it too far.

Nicking yourself with a razor could turn into death by a thousand cuts if you carry it too far.

Taking a simple example of something that has been done for hundreds, if not thousands of years by loving parents as a means of training their children (such as spanking) and making it sound like a horrendous crime could turn into a completely idiotic statement, but only if you carry it too far.

Excellent analogies- shaking ones hand could cause a bubonic plague epidemic if carried too far with the wrong people............................;-);-)

 

[countryboy]

Excellent analogies- shaking ones hand could cause a bubonic plague epidemic if carried too far with the wrong people............................;-);-)

That's a pretty good one, JLM.

I had another one in mind that I didn't put in there... Jimmy Carter once mentioned something about "Lusting in his heart" and that of course could turn into 'death by cardiac orgasm' if you carry it too far.

Parents, like anyone else, probably to remember to keep themselves under control when it comes to spanking - something along the lines of common sense. Like we had in the good old days of the 50s.

 

[damngrumpy]

I am a great grandpa now, but I didn't believe in spanking. I look at spanking as an
admission of defeat. I could always find interesting and creative ways to make a
punishment a learning experience. I also believed the punishment was to be the
ownership of the child and not partly mine.
I guess that came from may father, who used a strong but quiet voice, he didn't yell
he just said. "Don't do that"
The final result is all of my kids are working and they are able to stand on their own
two feet. The grand children of which there are 23 ranging in age from 5 months to
24 years olds, have never seen the inside of a courtroom. The older ones have gone
through college, and or have their electricians tickets and so on. None have dropped out of school, and they all have secure relationships.
Punishments should be a learning experience. and teach responsibility. I am lucky
I have grand kids come by to talk over problems and they often bring the beer.
When there is something I don't like, I ask, are you sure you want to do that?
Usually after thinking it over they don't. Dealing with kids requires good listening
skills, and allowing them to say what's on their mind, in an open fashion.
I too am a farmer, and a former broadcaster, did that for more than 30 years, but
I never felt the need to hit a child and I think I taught them a lot and they respect me
for it.

 

[JLM]

I am a great grandpa now, but I didn't believe in spanking. I look at spanking as an
admission of defeat. I could always find interesting and creative ways to make a
punishment a learning experience. I also believed the punishment was to be the
ownership of the child and not partly mine.
I guess that came from may father, who used a strong but quiet voice, he didn't yell
he just said. "Don't do that"
The final result is all of my kids are working and they are able to stand on their own
two feet. The grand children of which there are 23 ranging in age from 5 months to
24 years olds, have never seen the inside of a courtroom. The older ones have gone
through college, and or have their electricians tickets and so on. None have dropped out of school, and they all have secure relationships.
Punishments should be a learning experience. and teach responsibility. I am lucky
I have grand kids come by to talk over problems and they often bring the beer.
When there is something I don't like, I ask, are you sure you want to do that?
Usually after thinking it over they don't. Dealing with kids requires good listening
skills, and allowing them to say what's on their mind, in an open fashion.
I too am a farmer, and a former broadcaster, did that for more than 30 years, but
I never felt the need to hit a child and I think I taught them a lot and they respect me
for it.

That is great, congratulations, I'm definitely of two minds about spanking, some people get good results with it, some don't. I favour other methods if at all possible- if it is used, to be effective it can't be used often, but I think in cases where the kid tells the teacher to F off, a five minute time out won't do the trick.

 

[damngrumpy]

If the child tells a teacher to F off, there is something that can be done.
First you take all the things the child is interested in at school, you remind them of
how much they enjoy those things. From there you also make the point they would
not know anything about those interesting things if it hadn't of been for a teacher
who introduced them to subjects of interest. I also remind my younger ones, that
in order to gain respect from others, children or adults, you have to behave in a
respectful manner. I also ask,, the teacher you are in conflict with, have they ever
taught you something really interesting. have they ever challenged you to do something much better than ever before? Almost always the answer is yes, therefore
you owe that teacher an apology.
Finally address the f off word. I always ask them why they chose that word, not that
it doesn't' have shock value, or it prompts an instant response. Swearing in that manner under those circumstances happens when you don't have words of more
value and impact. It also demonstrates why they should be in school, because they
have a limited vocabulary. This is a learning experience because it brings to life
that the teacher is a real person just like them. Just because you have a different
opinion, doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful, as the original disagreement
is still there to be dealt with, and now you have a problem with someone who has
all the power, and the final say, don't put yourself in the position of setting up your
own defeat. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Usually the teacher
and one of my young charges sort out their own solutions without using violence
These things work themselves out..

 

[talloola]

If the child tells a teacher to F off, there is something that can be done.
First you take all the things the child is interested in at school, you remind them of
how much they enjoy those things. From there you also make the point they would
not know anything about those interesting things if it hadn't of been for a teacher
who introduced them to subjects of interest. I also remind my younger ones, that
in order to gain respect from others, children or adults, you have to behave in a
respectful manner. I also ask,, the teacher you are in conflict with, have they ever
taught you something really interesting. have they ever challenged you to do something much better than ever before? Almost always the answer is yes, therefore
you owe that teacher an apology.
Finally address the f off word. I always ask them why they chose that word, not that
it doesn't' have shock value, or it prompts an instant response. Swearing in that manner under those circumstances happens when you don't have words of more
value and impact. It also demonstrates why they should be in school, because they
have a limited vocabulary. This is a learning experience because it brings to life
that the teacher is a real person just like them. Just because you have a different
opinion, doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful, as the original disagreement
is still there to be dealt with, and now you have a problem with someone who has
all the power, and the final say, don't put yourself in the position of setting up your
own defeat. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Usually the teacher
and one of my young charges sort out their own solutions without using violence
These things work themselves out..

Thank you for two of the most intelligent and helpful posts,
as to why hitting children teaches nothing, and
speaking in a helpful manner and 'staying' the course to
complete the lesson, is.

Hitting escalates a situation of misbehaving to one of
frenzy and fear and crying, and only takes seconds, it
takes some time and patience and perseverence to see the
situation through from beginning to end without corporal
punishment.

I don't use the word 'spanking' as it has become sort of
a cute word, but is nothing of the sort, it's just hitting.

The anger in a parents face and the body language while hitting
his/her kid, is troublesome, as an adult the parent should have
learned to control his/her emotions, while teaching his kid
the lesson needed in the situation, at least that is how
I see it.

 

[VanIsle]

No spanking does not mean that there is no discipline, no structure, no mentoring, no monitoring. We never laid a hand on our son, but he had to live by the rules, by constraints. If he didn’t, there were consequences. Only that spanking, physical pain was not one of the consequences.

Indeed, that is the mistake many spanking advocates make, they assume alternatives are spanking or no discipline. Which is nonsense; one can have discipline, rules without subjecting the child to physical pain.

I don't agree with you SJP. We are talking about a spanking here - not a beating. There is a huge difference. You had one child. One child plays well alone at home or even with one or two others present. Put some siblings into a room together and you will see some broken rules and some blaming and some tattling. You don't even have to hand out full out spankings. Mine were never effective anyway. You just don't hit a child hard when they are little. You only have to tap and hurt some little feelings enough that they learn they don't want to feel that little hurt be it a pinch of pain and/or hurt feelings. As my kids got a little older, first they were my size and then they got a whole lot bigger. I've never feared that my kids would hit me at anytime but they did find it quite funny that I actually thought I could hurt them. The same is not always true of course because not all kids are boys and not all spankers are men. Some Moms can become quite violent and while I never had to experience it, I've known several people who have and do. My Dad had quite the temper I am told. Being the 6th child, I learned what not to do to raise his ire too often and remember only one spanking from him. Actually he strapped me across bare legs with an iron cord (years ago the cord un-plugged from the iron) but I'm sure it was as painful as a spanking. I didn't like it and I certainly didn't try for a second attempt and I never used any such thing on my kids. My husband was more strict but I usually headed him off at the pass by phoning and telling him what the kids had done wrong so that by the time he got home, he was over his initial anger. I also went to extremes in covering up some of their mistakes. Sometimes there are things you cannot cover up.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And kissing someone goodbye at the airport could turn into public sex, if you carry it too far.

Likewise with shaking one's hand...it could turn into a broken arm if you carry it too far.

Hugging your child could turn into a case of death by smothering if you carry it too far.

Giving your child a bath could turn into death by drowing if you carry it too far.

Eating food could turn into death by gluttony if you carry it too far.

A walk in the fresh Canadian winter air could turn into death by hypothermia if you carry it too far.

Accelerating as you enter a highway could turn into death by speeding if you carry it too far.

Sitting in front of a computer and googling every subject that pops into your head could turn into death by insanity if you carry it too far.

Not drinking any liquid could turn into death by dehydration if you carry it too far.

Nicking yourself with a razor could turn into death by a thousand cuts if you carry it too far.

Taking a simple example of something that has been done for hundreds, if not thousands of years by loving parents as a means of training their children (such as spanking) and making it sound like a horrendous crime could turn into a completely idiotic statement, but only if you carry it too far.

There is a big difference between all these examples and spanking, countryboy. None of these things are done when the perpetrator is angry, not in control of his emotions.

You don’t hug your child or give him a bath because you are angry at him. However, many parents spank their child because they are angry. Anger can get quickly out of control and turn into blind rage.

Indeed, there have been cases where spanking got out of control. How many cases of hugging or giving child a bath have got out of control?

A parent does not spank his child because he loves him, it is not the same as hugging. Maybe the parent does love him, but usually he spanks his child because he is angry at him, mad at him for something he did.

So no way any of these examples you gave are comparable to spanking.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Statistics have their place and there are some places where they are valid, like weather, or prices, or vital statistics and a lot of scientific events, sports scores- anything where a total record is kept but things like human behaviour can't be measured by statistics for the simple reason that most of the events pertaining to them aren't recorded. Take a small village where there is no local law enforcement, unless it's something like murder, rape, kidnapping or bank robbery, the "statistics are likely to show zero crime rate.

You would be surprised, JLM. Many small towns have higher crime rate than big cities such as Toronto.

As to how many crimes are reported, we could argue about that. However, the method of counting number of crimes has been the same for the past several decades, there has been no change. So the comparison between different years is quite valid.

And statistical comparison tells us that crime is dropping, has been on the decline for a long tiem now.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That's a pretty good one, JLM.
Parents, like anyone else, probably to remember to keep themselves under control when it comes to spanking - something along the lines of common sense. Like we had in the good old days of the 50s.

It is much harder to keep oneself in control when one is angry, compared to say hugging somebody or lusting after somebody. Unlike love or kindness, anger is a destructive emotion, with destructive consequences and can quickly get out of control.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Some Moms can become quite violent and while I never had to experience it, I've known several people who have and do. My Dad had quite the temper I am told. Being the 6th child, I learned what not to do to raise his ire too often and remember only one spanking from him. Actually he strapped me across bare legs with an iron cord (years ago the cord un-plugged from the iron) but I'm sure it was as painful as a spanking. I didn't like it and I certainly didn't try for a second attempt and I never used any such thing on my kids. My husband was more strict but I usually headed him off at the pass by phoning and telling him what the kids had done wrong so that by the time he got home, he was over his initial anger. I also went to extremes in covering up some of their mistakes. Sometimes there are things you cannot cover up.

You are only making my point, VanIsle. Most parents spank out of anger and it can quickly get out of control.

You say you were beaten across bare legs with an iron cord (what is an iron cord anyway? Sounds rather nasty). Can you honestly say that there was no possibility of any bones being broken in the process? Perhaps a stroke gone awry or a stroke delivered too hard? At times the spanking is so hard that the child has to be hospitalized.

If spanking is so wonderful, why did you have to cover up for the kids? But that is what one parent will usually do. If one parent has a severe temper and tendency to give severe spanking, the other parent will generally shield the children, let them get away with crimes for which they should be disciplined (not spanked, but disciplined).

Spanking is sordid business no matter how you look at it; I don’t think anything good comes out of it. And it has a very real possibility of doing severe, long lasing harm (both physically and emotionally).

 

[JLM]

If the child tells a teacher to F off, there is something that can be done.
First you take all the things the child is interested in at school, you remind them of
how much they enjoy those things. From there you also make the point they would
not know anything about those interesting things if it hadn't of been for a teacher
who introduced them to subjects of interest. I also remind my younger ones, that
in order to gain respect from others, children or adults, you have to behave in a
respectful manner. I also ask,, the teacher you are in conflict with, have they ever
taught you something really interesting. have they ever challenged you to do something much better than ever before? Almost always the answer is yes, therefore
you owe that teacher an apology.
Finally address the f off word. I always ask them why they chose that word, not that
it doesn't' have shock value, or it prompts an instant response. Swearing in that manner under those circumstances happens when you don't have words of more
value and impact. It also demonstrates why they should be in school, because they
have a limited vocabulary. This is a learning experience because it brings to life
that the teacher is a real person just like them. Just because you have a different
opinion, doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful, as the original disagreement
is still there to be dealt with, and now you have a problem with someone who has
all the power, and the final say, don't put yourself in the position of setting up your
own defeat. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Usually the teacher
and one of my young charges sort out their own solutions without using violence
These things work themselves out..

I fully agree with you but I think a person would have to be endowed with an inordinate amount of patience, which would far surpass any level I have. Especially if a person has half a dozen kids who are behaving like this.

 

[TenPenny]

And just what is the difference between spanking and ‘beating the crap out of your kids’? The difference is one of quantity, not of quality. The difference is one of degree, not of kind.

Quite so.

You come from a world where you cannot fathom the ability to restrain yourself, so therefore you cannot conceive of the difference between 'a spank' and 'abuse'.

I daresay it is a good thing that you never used physical discipline, because you don't seem to have the ability to understand the need to limit your actions.