What is the truth?

What is the truth?

Cliffy

#1Jul 31st, 2009

A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round that agitated people but that the world wasn’t flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic. – Dresden James
Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~ Maurice Maeterlinck
Contempt, prior to complete investigation, enslaves men to ignorance. – Dr. John Whitman Ray
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell
If you want to make someone angry, tell him a lie; if you want to make him furious, tell him the truth.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer Philosopher, 1788-1860
As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. – J Billings
Don’t confuse your opinion with the truth. – Werner Erhard
Its a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn’t want to hear. – Dick Cavett
The power to fit in with one’s social peers can be irresistible. To a human lemming, the logic behind an opinion doesn’t count as much as the power and popularity behind an opinion. – Norman Livergood?
If the truth is that ugly -- which it is -- then we do have to be careful about the way that we tell the truth.
But to say somehow that telling the truth should be avoided because people may respond badly to the truth seems bizarre to me. – Chuck Skoro, Deacon, St. Paul's Catholic Church
Neo: What truth? Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. That you, like everyone else, was born into bondage... kept inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch – a prison for your mind. Matrix

How many question the validity of what they have been told is the truth? How many bother to investigate beyond the "official" version of anything: religion, politics, science? Are we lemmings or people, sheep or humans? Better still, can you honestly say you know the difference?

El Barto

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

How many bother to investigate beyond the "official" version of anything: religion, politics, science?

I got on a spree on religious history books for a while..............never looked at religion that same way after

We are bombarded by lies and half truths everyday, from political dealings to commercials and ads.
Our very first lie i believe we heard was that Santa Claus existed.

Truth is, there is nothing certain in life and everything is perception.

Cliffy

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by El Barto

How many bother to investigate beyond the "official" version of anything: religion, politics, science?

I got on a spree on religious history books for a while..............never looked at religion that same way after

We are bombarded by lies and half truths everyday, from political dealings to commercials and ads.
Our very first lie i believe we heard was that Santa Claus existed.

Truth is, there is nothing certain in life and everything is perception.

Perception is all we have but it is difficult to see clearly when our vision is clouded by a blanket of lies.
I find the debate some have here about CNN and FOX and which is more slanted in their news delivery. Both are spin doctors for those who do not want you to know the truth. If sheep could think clearly they would not be lead to the slaughter. Today the front line of disinformation is the news media.

Spade

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

And what is amusing is that the media paint our society as a democracy!

VanIsle

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

And what is amusing is that the media paint our society as a democracy!

Ane what is more amusing is that people buy into that.

El Barto

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

truth is , people want the easy answers even if it means swallowing a lie that they don't want to see

ironsides

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

And what is amusing is that the media paint our society as a democracy!

About as close as we will ever experience.

ironsides

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Do you honestly think a society as you envision could actually survive? If it did, what would be the point of striving for anything else, especially self improvement?

We do not live, nor will we ever live in a perfect world. Not sure it could ever be perfect, even in the mind.

sirlorenzo

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Even if people are being honest, the truth is never completely laid out. You are told just what you need to know.

Spade

#10

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

About as close as we will ever experience.

Perhaps you're right... We slaves should not question our masters' charity of spirit! Come on, be happy! Don't rock the ship of state! Toil and don't fuss about whether our betters are freely chosen or born to rule! I am, Ironsides, duly chastised! Now, may I stand down from attention?

Spade

#11

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

"Truth lies at the bottom of a bottomless well."

SirJosephPorter

#12

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

How many question the validity of what they have been told is the truth? How many bother to investigate beyond the "official" version of anything: religion, politics, science?

Cliffy, I differentiate between religious, political truth on one hand and scientific truth on the other.

When it comes to scientific truth, I take the word of scientists. They describe in detail (in scientific journals) what experiments they performed and the conclusions they derived from that. Anybody could perform those experiments and comes to the same results (if not the same conclusions).

But I can’t be bothered to perform the experiments, so I take their word for it.

Religious, political, philosophical truth on the other hand is purely subjective, purely relative. It is not reproducible, like scientific truth is. So I question the validity of any religious or political truth.

Unforgiven

#13

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote:

The power to fit in with one’s social peers can be irresistible. To a human lemming, the logic behind an opinion doesn’t count as much as the power and popularity behind an opinion. – Norman Livergood?

I just thought I would mention that this whole lemmings committing suicide because they simply follow along is a lie. Disney induced it for a film, Lemmings don't do that.

--

Ironic that it would be used here in a thread about the truth and gullible people.

Cliffy

#14

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I just thought I would mention that this whole lemmings committing suicide because they simply follow along is a lie. Disney induced it for a film, Lemmings don't do that.

--

Ironic that it would be used here in a thread about the truth and gullible people.

In this case lemmings is used more like a brand name, like saying Coke for soda or Frigidaire for a refrigerator. Many creatures that live en mass or flock in large numbers act as if they had one mind as we see when we observe a flock of birds moving as one in sporadic flight. People living in crowded groupings like large cities tend to act similarly. Just witness scenes of daytime downtown New York or the Los Angeles freeway.

I don't think people are gullible so much as socially conditioned from birth to accept authority. Brain washing could be used, as in what Hitler said about telling a lie often enough that it becomes accepted as truth. Christians and Muslims both believe their books are the truth. One must be wrong or both are. But if indoctrinated from birth, many are willing to die and/or kill to prove they are right.

karrie

#15

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Now to throw a wrench into the issue Cliffy, what I find to be equally interesting to the flock mentality, is the conspiracy theory mentality.... the personality that will swallow any theory so long as it's sold to them under the guise of 'they really don't want you to know this, but...'

AnnaG

#16

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round that agitated people but that the world wasn’t flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic. – Dresden James
Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past. ~ Maurice Maeterlinck
Contempt, prior to complete investigation, enslaves men to ignorance. – Dr. John Whitman Ray
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell
If you want to make someone angry, tell him a lie; if you want to make him furious, tell him the truth.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer Philosopher, 1788-1860
As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. – J Billings
Don’t confuse your opinion with the truth. – Werner Erhard
Its a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn’t want to hear. – Dick Cavett
The power to fit in with one’s social peers can be irresistible. To a human lemming, the logic behind an opinion doesn’t count as much as the power and popularity behind an opinion. –...
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

A few.
A few.
Sheeple.
I try.

Cliffy

#17

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

And what is amusing is that the media paint our society as a democracy!

The old Tommy Douglas story of the mice voting in the cats because they believe they have no other choice. We keep voting in Liberals or Conservatives thinking we are voting in the lesser of two evils. We mistakenly believe that the alternatives have no chance to displace the ruling elite, so we don't vote for them. But that myth is constantly being reinforced by the media. If everyone voted their conscience instead of how the media tell you who to vote for, we might come closer to democracy. But change is scarier than the screwing we are used to.

AnnaG

#18

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

The old Tommy Douglas story of the mice voting in the cats because they believe they have no other choice. We keep voting in Liberals or Conservatives thinking we are voting in the lesser of two evils. We mistakenly believe that the alternatives have no chance to displace the ruling elite, so we don't vote for them. But that myth is constantly being reinforced by the media. If everyone voted their conscience instead of how the media tell you who to vote for, we might come closer to democracy. But change is scarier than the screwing we are used to.

Pretty much.
But, you might as well ask people to quit voting for looks and charisma; a futile exercise. Sheeple love being sheeple.

Cliffy

#19

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Now to throw a wrench into the issue Cliffy, what I find to be equally interesting to the flock mentality, is the conspiracy theory mentality.... the personality that will swallow any theory so long as it's sold to them under the guise of 'they really don't want you to know this, but...'

Everything that is discussed by two or more people and put into action, from changing the arrangement of the furniture in the living room to bombing innocent people is a conspiracy. People who believe anything that we don't accept as truth should be wearing tin foil hats and are ridiculed.

If you are among ten witnesses at an accident scene, your stories will vary to the point that none will seem credible. That is because each of us has a personal perspective that varies from the next. Who is telling the truth? None are because the truth is so subjective. So, the debate over 911 being an inside job will never be settled even if all the evidence was made available because people are not willing, for the most part, to change their point of view.

Unforgiven

#20

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

In this case lemmings is used more like a brand name, like saying Coke for soda or Frigidaire for a refrigerator. Many creatures that live en mass or flock in large numbers act as if they had one mind as we see when we observe a flock of birds moving as one in sporadic flight. People living in crowded groupings like large cities tend to act similarly. Just witness scenes of daytime downtown New York or the Los Angeles freeway.

No, you off the mark I am afraid. Lemmings as an example, are thought by most people to do one thing, while in fact they don't do that one thing at all. Only because no one bothers to check is it accepted at the truth. Most people will take a good look when it's important to them. Though I will admit that often people don't know when it's important and when it's not.

Saying large groups of people do things similarly as some indication that people are willing to accept a lie is not even close to accurate. The same can be said abour rural folk. They all own trucks, they all wear boots and so on. You can't describe things that way and expect to be at all accurate.

Quote:

I don't think people are gullible so much as socially conditioned from birth to accept authority.

This much is right on though. Of course it's in our best interest to accept authority to live within a community and society in general. All must conform to a small extent or they are forced out.

Quote:

Brain washing could be used, as in what Hitler said about telling a lie often enough that it becomes accepted as truth. Christians and Muslims both believe their books are the truth. One must be wrong or both are. But if indoctrinated from birth, many are willing to die and/or kill to prove they are right.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Brain washing, I don't know, I expect in an individual case yes, but enmasse? Going along to get along under threat I can accept.

What I would like to examine though is the group think in military situation and under stress to see how much is relying on training and how much is running on faith.

AnnaG

#21

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

The lemmings thing is a concept. It's a fictional concept, but the idea remains the same.
Keep telling people something for thousands of years and they eventually accept it if they don't investigate it. It's a technique in conditioning for a certain behavior.

Cliffy

#22

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

How many people on here and in real life say that Canada is the best country and that our system of government is flawed but better than any other out there? Is this true or just an accepted fact because that is what we have been fed, or do we know this because we have investigated other countries and their systems? I am sure that there are other countries with systems that the people think are better. Just look next door. We would never put up with their system and they wouldn't tolerate ours. Is that not a form of brainwashing?

SirJosephPorter

#23

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

How many people on here and in real life say that Canada is the best country and that our system of government is flawed but better than any other out there? Is this true or just an accepted fact because that is what we have been fed, or do we know this because we have investigated other countries and their systems?

It happens to be an accepted fact, Cliffy. I have lived in USA and Britain for several years each, and I can say without hesitation that Canada is the best of the three. United Nation publishes the list of countries according to the quality of life, and Canada is invariably No.1 or near the top.

So your point that citizens of any country would think that their country is the best in the world is a valid one. However, in the case of Canada, there is some objective evidence, in addition to patriotism.

Cannuck

#24

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round that agitated people but that the world wasn’t flat.

No. The initial commotion of a truth is proportional to negative effect of the truth.

Whether the world was round or flat did not matter in and of itself. The effect of that truth was to show the Church to be wrong. If the church was wrong about inconsequential things, it could be wrong about important things. The Church saw it's existence threatened by the truth.

Many people and/or groups will fight the truth, not because of how much they believed the lie but, based on how the truth affects them. I'll wager that if a scientific study came out tomorrow that said moderate amounts of alcohol improves driving skills, MADD would attack the study. The science behind the study is irrelevant.

Cannuck

#25

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

Do you honestly think a society as you envision could actually survive? If it did, what would be the point of striving for anything else, especially self improvement?

People seem to confuse freedom and democracy. Blacks, gays, women...all would have no basic rights if the will of the majority was respected.

Cannuck

#26

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Now to throw a wrench into the issue Cliffy, what I find to be equally interesting to the flock mentality, is the conspiracy theory mentality.... the personality that will swallow any theory so long as it's sold to them under the guise of 'they really don't want you to know this, but...'

"They" can't keep a gummer in the Oval Office or a naked pictures of Iraqi soldiers off the front pages but, they can hide the grandest schemes. "They" are an odd bunch...if they actually exist.

Cannuck

#27

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Just look next door. We would never put up with their system and they wouldn't tolerate ours. Is that not a form of brainwashing?

Says who. I, and many people I know, would consider moving to the states if the right opportunity came up. Many Americans want the things we have (universal health care).

It's rather simple. We have one of the best systems in the world and that is proven by the fact that so many are trying to come here. Open, democratic states attract people. Since the government's job is to serve people, it would appear that ours is doing a relatively good job.

Cliffy

#28

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Well, that turned out to be a poor analogy. Just shows you that I've been living in near isolation for too long. But on some level, the objection to it shows resistance to different ideas.
I'll have to come up with something better but right now I'm hungry. Later!

lone wolf

#29

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck

"They" can't keep a gummer in the Oval Office or a naked pictures of Iraqi soldiers off the front pages but, they can hide the grandest schemes. "They" are an odd bunch...if they actually exist.

Sure they can.... a previous one involved billions of dollars, the largest buildings on Earth and Manhattan too....

VanIsle

#30

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

The old Tommy Douglas story of the mice voting in the cats because they believe they have no other choice. We keep voting in Liberals or Conservatives thinking we are voting in the lesser of two evils. We mistakenly believe that the alternatives have no chance to displace the ruling elite, so we don't vote for them. But that myth is constantly being reinforced by the media. If everyone voted their conscience instead of how the media tell you who to vote for, we might come closer to democracy. But change is scarier than the screwing we are used to.

Cliff I think the real truth is that if we voted our conscience, we wouldn't actually vote at all. Really, our only option is to vote for yet a 3rd party that we probably still don't agree with but that we still don't have any real say in. If the government is working for us - why do they get to give all the answers and why do they get to give themselves a raise? I gather from recent news that it is likely BC and AB will be having a strong look at pensions. Will they reduce the CPP and the OAS but not their own monthly wage. For a lot of the population, CPP and or OAS is their monthly wage. Yeah - we live in a democracy alright!

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