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What is the truth?

What is the truth?

VanIsle

#31

Re: What is the truth?

Jul 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

It happens to be an accepted fact, Cliffy. I have lived in USA and Britain for several years each, and I can say without hesitation that Canada is the best of the three. United Nation publishes the list of countries according to the quality of life, and Canada is invariably No.1 or near the top.

So your point that citizens of any country would think that their country is the best in the world is a valid one. However, in the case of Canada, there is some objective evidence, in addition to patriotism.

Is it really an accepted fact or your opinion Sir Joe? If our government is the so called best, then why aren't we the super power? If our gov't is so great, why is there so much crime? If I believed we lived in a democratic country with a government (all of them) that was even half way honest then I might begine to believe we have the best. I don't see where we have any bragging rights just yet. Forget the Cons or the Libs - just government. They all rule themselves. They all rob us of all they can. They all pay themselves as much as they can. They say how much we will be paid and they say what the rules are. We vote them in so they can tell us what to do. We don't even fight it because most people don't vote.

AnnaG

#32

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle

Cliff I think the real truth is that if we voted our conscience, we wouldn't actually vote at all. Really, our only option is to vote for yet a 3rd party that we probably still don't agree with but that we still don't have any real say in. If the government is working for us - why do they get to give all the answers and why do they get to give themselves a raise? I gather from recent news that it is likely BC and AB will be having a strong look at pensions. Will they reduce the CPP and the OAS but not their own monthly wage. For a lot of the population, CPP and or OAS is their monthly wage. Yeah - we live in a democracy alright!

Yup. So it has been said anyway. In reality though we don't have the mob rule that is a democracy, we have clique rule as in oligarchy. You vote Joe or Susan MP in and most of them are backbenchers. They have very little say in what goes on in gov't unless they get together and gang up on gov't.

Unforgiven

#33

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

How many people on here and in real life say that Canada is the best country and that our system of government is flawed but better than any other out there? Is this true or just an accepted fact because that is what we have been fed, or do we know this because we have investigated other countries and their systems? I am sure that there are other countries with systems that the people think are better. Just look next door. We would never put up with their system and they wouldn't tolerate ours. Is that not a form of brainwashing?

That's simply cheerleading. Nothing wrong with it but it's hardly the argument for why Canada is a great country to live in. Canada or a city or two has always ranked among the top place to live in the world. It's not brain washing. Clean streets, fresh air, low crime rates and open space, always work for those who really want a job and the chance to make a comfortable life in peace for you and your family isn't some mythical stuff, it's reality right here in Canada.

So saying Canada is the greatest place in the world is not really far off the mark.
Anyone willing to do the investigation will find that it is so.

The Earth moves around the Sun. It's not brainwashing if it is so.

darkbeaver

#34

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Now to throw a wrench into the issue Cliffy, what I find to be equally interesting to the flock mentality, is the conspiracy theory mentality.... the personality that will swallow any theory so long as it's sold to them under the guise of 'they really don't want you to know this, but...'

Hi Karrie. Knowledge is power, like an ace up your sleeve.

AnnaG

#35

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Canada? Low crime rate?

Illegal drugs: Canada's growing international market

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Um, I read somewhere that Sweden is the best place for women to live.

AnnaG

#36

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Canada is #4. according to the UN.

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland

AnnaG

#37

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

As of 9 years ago (2000):
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SirJosephPorter

#38

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Is it really an accepted fact or your opinion Sir Joe?

I did not say that it was the accepted fact or my opinion, VanIsle. What I said was that there is some objective evidence for saying that Canada is the best country in the world. United nations survey regarding quality of life invariably puts Canada at the top or very near the top. Quality of life in Canada is one of the best (if not the best) in the world (even with Harper in power).

If our government is the so called best, then why aren't we the super power? If our gov't is so great, why is there so much crime?

Nobody said that our government was the best, VanIsle. What the UN survey says is that quality of life is the best or one of the best in Canada. And Canada can never be a super power, we just don’t have the population. Thus China has been a superpower for a long time now, even when people there were very poor. Even now China’s standard of living is considerably lower than that of Canada, yet it is a super power because of its population.

And sure there is crime in Canada, but many other countries have much more crime. Compared to the rest of the world, Canada does not do badly at all. And again, nowhere did I say that our government is great.

I don't see where we have any bragging rights just yet.

We have bragging rights according to the UN survey. That is the only systematic, objective survey which compares the quality of life in different countries and Canada invariably does very well in the survey.

Incidentally, what I said is that my personal, anecdotal evidence is consistent with the survey. I have first hand experience with USA, Britain and Canada and I think Canada is the best country of the three, far better than USA or Britain.

SirJosephPorter

#39

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Um, I read somewhere that Sweden is the best place for women to live.

Anna, Sweden has been in the vanguard for women’s rights for decades. Surprisingly, it was not the first country to give women the vote (that was New Zealand), but Sweden has been very progressive when it comes to women’s rights.

Sweden changed the rule of succession for the monarchy in 1950s, now the first child, man or woman becomes the monarch. This is in contrast with Britain, where they still have the law that first MALE child becomes the monarch.

Sweden has had high representation by women in local, national governments for a long time now. We visited Sweden about 25 years ago. That time the tour guide told us that in Stockholm local assembly, 41 out of 100 councilors were women (41 of the 100 ‘tyrants’ are women, as she put it).

So yes, my guess is the Sweden would be the best country in the world for women. Canada is probably the best country in the world for gays.

AnnaG

#40

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Is it really an accepted fact or your opinion Sir Joe?

I did not say that it was the accepted fact or my opinion, VanIsle. What I said was that there is some objective evidence for saying that Canada is the best country in the world. United nations survey regarding quality of life invariably puts Canada at the top or very near the top. Quality of life in Canada is one of the best (if not the best) in the world (even with Harper in power).

As I already posted: the UN considers Canada to be #4. We slid downhill since 2000.

Quote:
If our government is the so called best, then why aren't we the super power? If our gov't is so great, why is there so much crime?

Quote:

.............
And sure there is crime in Canada, but many other countries have much more crime. Compared to the rest of the world, Canada does not do badly at all. And again, nowhere did I say that our government is great.

Not that many other countries. Canada is pretty far up the ladder in crime.

Illegal drugs: Canada's growing international market

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Quote:
I don't see where we have any bragging rights just yet.

Quote:

We have bragging rights according to the UN survey. That is the only systematic, objective survey which compares the quality of life in different countries and Canada invariably does very well in the survey.

Incidentally, what I said is that my personal, anecdotal evidence is consistent with the survey. I have first hand experience with USA, Britain and Canada and I think Canada is the best country of the three, far better than USA or Britain.

But not as good as Iceland, Norway, and Australia. So we could be a lot better.

Last edited by AnnaG; Aug 1st, 2009 at 05:42 PM..

AnnaG

#41

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Um, I read somewhere that Sweden is the best place for women to live.

Anna, Sweden has been in the vanguard for women’s rights for decades. Surprisingly, it was not the first country to give women the vote (that was New Zealand), but Sweden has been very progressive when it comes to women’s rights.

Sweden changed the rule of succession for the monarchy in 1950s, now the first child, man or woman becomes the monarch. This is in contrast with Britain, where they still have the law that first MALE child becomes the monarch.

Sweden has had high representation by women in local, national governments for a long time now. We visited Sweden about 25 years ago. That time the tour guide told us that in Stockholm local assembly, 41 out of 100 councilors were women (41 of the 100 ‘tyrants’ are women, as she put it).

So yes, my guess is the Sweden would be the best country in the world for women. Canada is probably the best country in the world for gays.

Yeah, I googled all that, too.

Cannuck

#42

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Is it really an accepted fact or your opinion Sir Joe?

I did not say that it was the accepted fact or my opinion, VanIsle.

That is exactly what you said...

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

It happens to be an accepted fact, Cliffy. I have lived in USA and Britain for several years each, and I can say without hesitation that Canada is the best of the three.

Spade

#43

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson

"The last thing men seek is the truth." Anonymous

SirJosephPorter

#44

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson

"The last thing men seek is the truth." Anonymous

Thomas Jefferson was truly a wise man, Spade.

SirJosephPorter

#45

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

But not as good as Iceland, Norway, and Australia. So we could be a lot better.

Your information is out of date, Anna. As of 2008, Canada ranks above Australia, and below Norway and Iceland (but above Sweden).

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USA is No. 15, USA always ranks fairly low in terms of quality of life.

But third in the whole world is not bad at all, I will take it.

But the point is, there is very little difference between the top countries. Thus Norway and Iceland (No.s 1 and 2) have an index of .968, while Canada has index of .967 (Australia, behind Canada has an index of .965). So it really doesn’t matter whether Canada is No, 1, 2, 3 or 4, they are all very close.

And Canada has consistently been at the very top or near the top for a long time now. By comparison, index for USA is .950, far below the top ranking countries.

So whether Canada is No, 1, 2 or 3 is really quibbling, in my opinion. The survey says that quality of life in Canada is very good, among the best in the world, and that is good enough for me.

Incidentally, India and China, the upcoming countries are 132 and 94 respectively.

Cliffy

#46

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 1st, 2009

And none of this has anything to do with the truth, just justification for not looking at the truth. Quantifying life in any country amounts to nothing more than an opinion based on personal preferences. That is what the truth to each individual is - an opinion or preference. It is only relevant to the beholder. But if all you know from what you have been taught are lies and fiction, how would you know the difference. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass or you would resist it by all possible means, including killing the messenger.

AnnaG

#47

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson

"The last thing men seek is the truth." Anonymous

That leaves us women to find it.

AnnaG

#48

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

But not as good as Iceland, Norway, and Australia. So we could be a lot better.

Your information is out of date, Anna. As of 2008, Canada ranks above Australia, and below Norway and Iceland (but above Sweden).

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Looks like Wiki could use a little updating. The place I got the info from said April 2009. But that's neither here nor there, really, as I found a vastly more comprehensive study at this link:

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andf the UN's report is a human development study (using 3 criteria) rather than a quality of life study.

Last edited by AnnaG; Aug 2nd, 2009 at 03:34 AM..

AnnaG

#49

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

And none of this has anything to do with the truth, just justification for not looking at the truth. Quantifying life in any country amounts to nothing more than an opinion based on personal preferences. That is what the truth to each individual is - an opinion or preference. It is only relevant to the beholder. But if all you know from what you have been taught are lies and fiction, how would you know the difference. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass or you would resist it by all possible means, including killing the messenger.

And that may be your truth, but mine differs.

SirJosephPorter

#50

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG

Looks like Wiki could use a little updating. The place I got the info from said April 2009. But that's neither here nor there, really, as I found a vastly more comprehensive study at this link:

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andf the UN's report is a human development study (using 3 criteria) rather than a quality of life study.

Anna, this quality of life index is from a private (I think American) organization, so I don’t know how reliable the report is. I would tend to believe a Untied Nations report, rather than one put out by an American organization. UN report is more likely to be impartial.

Anyway, one thinks of France (and indeed the whole Europe) as very expensive. I was surprised to see how reasonable the prices in the French supermarket are.

Unforgiven

#51

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

And none of this has anything to do with the truth, just justification for not looking at the truth. Quantifying life in any country amounts to nothing more than an opinion based on personal preferences. That is what the truth to each individual is - an opinion or preference. It is only relevant to the beholder. But if all you know from what you have been taught are lies and fiction, how would you know the difference. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass or you would resist it by all possible means, including killing the messenger.

No no no no no no, the truth is the truth. Not opinion, not acceptence of anything.
A stone that weighs exactly one kilo is in fact weighing one kilo. That is the truth, regardless of Fred's opinion that it weighs half a kilo and Frank's insistance that it weighs 2 kilos. The truth is it's weight is one kilo.

There is the difference.

Choosing to think that no one can think for themselves or sus out the truth from the evidence they can gather is not the truth. Only opinion.

Cliffy

#52

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven

No no no no no no, the truth is the truth. Not opinion, not acceptence of anything.
A stone that weighs exactly one kilo is in fact weighing one kilo. That is the truth, regardless of Fred's opinion that it weighs half a kilo and Frank's insistance that it weighs 2 kilos. The truth is it's weight is one kilo.

There is the difference.

Choosing to think that no one can think for themselves or sus out the truth from the evidence they can gather is not the truth. Only opinion.

And what makes a rock weigh a kilo? When viewed through an electron microscope we find vast amounts of space and practically no substance/matter. What is it then that weighs a kilo? If the scale used is nothing but vast amounts of space, how does it measure weight? Science produces a conundrum. It requires instruments that have no substance to measure stuff that has no substance.

What is it that holds our reality together? What differentiates a rock from our flesh? How does pure energy become an object? If an atomic structure is a mirror image of a solar system, what exactly are we looking at and who is doing the looking? Who is measuring and observing our reality when there is only movement of energy to observe? Who decides what is real and what isn't?

Cannuck

#53

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

What differentiates a rock from our flesh?

The rock is made up of rock molecules. Flesh is made up of human molecules. In women theses molecules are mostly a combination of the sugar, spice and the newly discovered everythingnice atom. That is THE truth.

Unforgiven

#54

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

And what makes a rock weigh a kilo?

The discription of it I think.

Quote:

When viewed through an electron microscope we find vast amounts of space and practically no substance/matter.

Okay.

Quote:

What is it then that weighs a kilo?

The rock in my example.

Quote:

If the scale used is nothing but vast amounts of space, how does it measure weight?

Ice cream has no bones. If a hammer is the camera who is the developer?
Stop trying to be mystic and simply state your opinion. Through that we or at least I will be able to learn what it is that you want to express.

Quote:

Science produces a conundrum. It requires instruments that have no substance to measure stuff that has no substance.

Or did the conundrum exist and science started with noticing it, then attempting an accurate discription?

Quote:

What is it that holds our reality together?

Psychy?

Quote:

What differentiates a rock from our flesh?

Senses

Quote:

How does pure energy become an object?

Change.

Quote:

If an atomic structure is a mirror image of a solar system, what exactly are we looking at and who is doing the looking?

An atomic sturcture and we are doing the looking. Isn't that what you said?

Quote:

Who is measuring and observing our reality when there is only movement of energy to observe?

Who says someone is measuring and observing our reality?

To be honest, you're not making a lot of sense to me at the moment.

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Who decides what is real and what isn't?

We each do. But there are agreed standards.

Is this some sort of why are we here and what is God business again?

SirJosephPorter

#55

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

And what makes a rock weigh a kilo? When viewed through an electron microscope we find vast amounts of space and practically no substance/matter. What is it then that weighs a kilo? If the scale used is nothing but vast amounts of space, how does it measure weight? Science produces a conundrum. It requires instruments that have no substance to measure stuff that has no substance.

What is it that holds our reality together? What differentiates a rock from our flesh? How does pure energy become an object? If an atomic structure is a mirror image of a solar system, what exactly are we looking at and who is doing the looking? Who is measuring and observing our reality when there is only movement of energy to observe? Who decides what is real and what isn't?

Cliffy, let us just say that your reality seems to be different than that of most people.

Liberalman

#56

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

What is truth? Peace in your mind and soul.

Cliffy

#57

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

There are many "truths" that are generally accepted in various cultures that are not in agreement with other cultures. Even in our culture there are disagreements about the validity of certain "truths".
* Diseases are caused by viruses and bacteria. Or are they caused by states of mind or emotions?
* God is real - God is fiction.
* Political left and right.
* Matter is solid or pure energy
* Our reality is real or relative, subjective or objective.

There are those who think we live in the Matrix (a computer construct based on millennium of mind programming) while others find it is unquestionably real and solid. many of us feel that life is just what it seems and cannot be changed and there are those who believe it is just a program and can be changed by changing our minds, by imagining something better than what we think is the way it is.
If you could change the way things are, what would you envision it to be like?

Unforgiven

#58

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

There are many "truths" that are generally accepted in various cultures that are not in agreement with other cultures. Even in our culture there are disagreements about the validity of certain "truths".
* Diseases are caused by viruses and bacteria. Or are they caused by states of mind or emotions?
* God is real - God is fiction.
* Political left and right.
* Matter is solid or pure energy
* Our reality is real or relative, subjective or objective.

There are those who think we live in the Matrix (a computer construct based on millennium of mind programming) while others find it is unquestionably real and solid. many of us feel that life is just what it seems and cannot be changed and there are those who believe it is just a program and can be changed by changing our minds, by imagining something better than what we think is the way it is.

Oh I understand now, you are confused Cliffy. Belief and truth seem alike but they are not. Belief is what you think something is, while the truth is what it is.

Quote:

If you could change the way things are, what would you envision it to be like?

I don't know, but I realize now that to change one thing creates change in other things that you may not want or understand.

Cliffy

#59

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Oh, I am not confused. I am posting questions about our beliefs about reality because there are so many different views and every one thinks theirs is the only one worth consideration. There are many different ways to experience reality but if they do not agree with yours it must be false.

I had the opportunity to experience various situations with aboriginal people that are generally not acceptable within the lexicon of the dominant society. I experienced them because I was able to step outside the accepted beliefs about reality (how I was able to do that is another story). What I concluded was, that some aspects of their reality are different than ours and that reality is truly in the eye of the beholder.

What charismatic christians experience as a spiritual experience is similar but skeptics will explain them away by talking about chemical reactions in the brain or just plain delusion. I see it as just a different way of experiencing life based on different belief systems.

It all comes down to accepting others right to their point of view. I question the validity of everything because some work in my reality and some don't, but others have different views and experiences so who am I to question what they perceive. I think it is more about getting along and not classifying anybody as being crazy because I don't perceive the same way as they do.

AnnaG

#60

Re: What is the truth?

Aug 2nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Anna, this quality of life index is from a private (I think American) organization, so I don’t know how reliable the report is. I would tend to believe a Untied Nations report, rather than one put out by an American organization. UN report is more likely to be impartial.

Anyway, one thinks of France (and indeed the whole Europe) as very expensive. I was surprised to see how reasonable the prices in the French supermarket are.

roflmao The UN impartial? That's hilarious.
Thanks for that, even though my ribs hurt a little now.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that if the org. was partial to the USA it would have put the USA farther up the ladder? lmao
If you disbelieve that anyone other than the UN could be impartial, do your own research and publish a study.

lmao You remind me of that beagle in Walt Disney cartoon that keeps tripping over its own ears except you trip over your own head. lmao aaaaaaaaaahahahhahahahaa

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