U.S. soldier kills up to 16 Afghan civilians


gerryh
#511
ya... that's what I figured. I have posted it twice, not doing it again. I'm done with you.
 
Goober
+1
#512
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

ya... that's what I figured. I have posted it twice, not doing it again. I'm done with you.

Run along now - Enjoy the hissy fit.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

again, numbnuts, prove what he says about the timeline between 9/11 and the invasion wrong. You can't, and therefore, like the tiny minded little man you are, you yell squirrel.

Was this the question - We have discussed this and he has his opinion and I have mine.

Now off to the powder room, your mascara is running.
 
Spade
#513
Interesting coincidence
The Mai Lai massacre was March 16, 1968.
 
Goober
#514
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Interesting coincidence
The Mai Lai massacre was March 16, 1968.

Then you would recall the TET Offensive and the thousands massacred by the VC. A useless war-
 
Ocean Breeze
-1
#515
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Interesting coincidence
The Mai Lai massacre was March 16, 1968.

Indeed. Nice catch..

************************************

Quote:

Afghan Villagers Were Threatened by US Troops Ahead of Massacre (external - login to view)

Witnesses: Troops Lined Up All Men From Mokhoyan, Told Them They'd 'Pay'




Afghan Villagers Were Threatened by US Troops Ahead of Massacre -- News from Antiwar.com (external - login to view)

Quote:

Afghan Massacre Soldier ‘Doesn’t Remember’ Killings (external - login to view)

Lawyer: No Proof Showing Bales Responsible




Here we go. Temporary amnesia???

The Afghans are watching this unfold. With increasingly shaky relationships , how this is handled is putting the US legal system in the spotlight too. As it should.
 
CDNBear
#516
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

So then, I've stated that I don't support capital punishment in either our criminal justice system, or in the military justice system and yet somehow you've perceived that to be a double standard on my part...care to explain?

...

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Furthermore, it is a scenario like this that prevents me from ever supporting capital punishment, as I don't believe people should be put down for being ill...unless of course they want to be, but that's another issue for another day...

There's a good chance, the Soldier in question, is ill. A head injury, alcoholism (A recognized illness), likely depression (Another recognized illness).

I'm just wondering why you aren't here, pleading his case.

Quote:

If I could prevail upon a mod to move this post to the following thread:

U.S. soldier kills up to 16 Afghan civilians

It would be much appreciated.

All you have to do, is bring the quote here and post it.
 
Ocean Breeze
#517
Quote:

U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales’ suspected early March murder of 16 Afghan civilians is cast by the military-industrial-congressional-media complex as the isolated madness of a single American soldier. In fact, victims in the village of Kandahar are just the latest among six million who have perished in America's wars-of-choice in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and now the Central Asian graveyard of empires, Afghanistan.
That sobering estimate of death comes from John Tirman, executive director of the MIT Center for International Studies, and author of The Deaths of Others: The Fate of Civilians in America’s Wars, whose arguments were recently summarized in The Washington Post essay (external - login to view), “Why Do We Ignore the Civilians Killed in American Wars?”

* Obama’s Afghanistan Massacre Deniers** : Information Clearing House (external - login to view)

bloody good question.....
 
Spade
#518
They are not ignored, just not remembered.
 
Goober
#519
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Indeed. Nice catch..

And that is all it is a coincidence.
 
Ocean Breeze
-1
#520
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

They are not ignored, just not remembered.

sigh...........splitting hairs . Either way it does not make it humane.

Who is keeping a record of all the Afghans slaughtered in this search & destroy mission for OBL ??

the sad truth is that repercussions from these invasions will be happening for some time. Of course the US will brand these incidents "terrorism" and the cycle of violence will be perpetuated.
 
CDNBear
+2
#521
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Who is keeping a record of all the Afghans slaughtered in this search & destroy mission for OBL ??

Ummm, they already found him, killed him and dumped him.

You really should try and keep up.
 
gerryh
#522
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Ummm, they already found him, killed him and dumped him.

You really should try and keep up.


Yup, we're now killin em just for fun. reread the original OP for proof.
 
Goober
#523
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Yup, we're now killin em just for fun. reread the original OP for proof.

Where is that stated.
 
Vanni Fucci
#524
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

...



There's a good chance, the Soldier in question, is ill. A head injury, alcoholism (A recognized illness), likely depression (Another recognized illness).

I'm just wondering why you aren't here, pleading his case

It would have to be proven that due to his mental illness he did not have the capacity to determine that what he was doing was wrong...head injuries, alcoholism, depression and even PTSD does not produce that severe a departure from reality...

If it is shown, and it likely will be, that he knew what he was doing was wrong, then he should stand trial for and be convicted of he attrocities...
 
CDNBear
#525
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

It would have to be proven that due to his mental illness he did not have the capacity to determine that what he was doing was wrong...head injuries, alcoholism, depression and even PTSD does not produce that severe a departure from reality...

LOL

Ummm, ya, OK.

Psychotic Depression: Losing Touch With Reality - Depression Center - EverydayHealth.com (external - login to view)

Facts about Drugs and Alcohol-Drug and Alcohol (external - login to view)

What are the main symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder? - by John Louie Ramos - Helium (external - login to view)

Psychosis, Brain Injury, Complications, Causes, Symptoms (external - login to view)

Vanni Fucci (external - login to view) PWND

Besides that, when you're done making excuses, maybe you could challenge EAO and Ariadne, for promoting capital punishment in this case.

Just sayin'...
Last edited by CDNBear; Mar 21st, 2012 at 05:57 PM..
 
Goober
#526
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

It would have to be proven that due to his mental illness he did not have the capacity to determine that what he was doing was wrong...head injuries, alcoholism, depression and even PTSD does not produce that severe a departure from reality...

If it is shown, and it likely will be, that he knew what he was doing was wrong, then he should stand trial for and be convicted of he attrocities...

The insanity defense while used in the US is rarely successful. That said he may be able to use brain trauma as a mitigating factor.
But he will be tried in a Military Court and they are not the same as a civilian court. Very different rules apply.
 
Vanni Fucci
#527
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

The insanity defense while used in the US is rarely successful. That said he may be able to use brain trauma as a mitigating factor.
But he will be tried in a Military Court and they are not the same as a civilian court. Very different rules apply.

Brain trauma would have to have been very recent, and proven to have caused a condition by which he could not be legally culpable for his crimes.
 
CDNBear
+2
#528
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Brain trauma would have to have been very recent, and proven to have caused a condition by which he could not be legally culpable for his crimes.

No it wouldn't.

Brain injuries, like PTSD can sometimes take a while to surface.
 
Vanni Fucci
#529
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Psychotic Depression: Losing Touch With Reality - Depression Center - EverydayHealth.com (external - login to view)

Show me where Staff Sgt Bales was diagnosed with psychotic depression, which one as learned as you should know is very different than your garden variety depression...

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Facts about Drugs and Alcohol-Drug and Alcohol (external - login to view)

No defense for massacres there...

Quote:

What are the main symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder? - by John Louie Ramos - Helium (external - login to view)

No defense for massacres there either...

Robert Bales May Have Been Psychotic, Says Army's Former Top Psychiatrist Elspeth Ritchie - Seattle News - The Daily Weekly (external - login to view)

Quote:

Ritchie, who left her Army post a couple years ago and is now the chief clinical officer for the District of Columbia's mental health department, says PTSD is associated with "hypervigilance, numbing, flashbacks"--but not the "kind of violence Bales that allegedly committed." Similarly, she says TBI commonly causes nausea and dizziness, but not an impulse to massacre women and children.

There we see that neither PTSD nor Traumatic Brain Injury include psychosis as a symptom.

Quote:

Instead, Ritchie speculates that Bales may have been having a psychotic episode that left him hearing voices, experiencing delusions or otherwise being out-of-touch with reality.

Quote:

"Maybe he didn't realize that [the victims] were women and children," Ritchie says in an interview with Seattle Weekly. "Maybe he thought they were the Taliban."

This has not been diagnosed and is pure speculation on the part of the former Army shrink...

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Vanni Fucci (external - login to view) PWND

Pfft...hardly...

I don't believe this guy should be executed, but neither do I think that he should be found not guilty by reason of insanity unless it is proven that his psychosis was severe enough to cause him to do so...
Last edited by Vanni Fucci; Mar 21st, 2012 at 06:30 PM..
 
Goober
#530
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Show me where Staff Sgt Bales was diagnosed with psychotic depression, which one as learned as you should know is very different than your garden variety depression...



No defense for massacres there...



No defense for massacres there either...

Robert Bales May Have Been Psychotic, Says Army's Former Top Psychiatrist Elspeth Ritchie - Seattle News - The Daily Weekly (external - login to view)



There we see that neither PTSD nor Traumatic Brain Injury include psychosis as a symptom.



This has not been diagnosed and is pure speculation on the part of the former Army shrink...



Pfft...hardly...

Do you have access to his medical records. No - your question is BS

It an take years for PTSD to be diagnosed. Fact
 
Vanni Fucci
#531
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Do you have access to his medical records. No - your question is BS

It an take years for PTSD to be diagnosed. Fact

Even so, because the clinical definition of PTSD does not include psychosis, PTSD cannot be used as an insanity defense...Fact!
 
CDNBear
+2
#532
I see you still haven't grasped the point, but I like PWN'ing you so...

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Pfft...hardly...

Your claim...

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

...head injuries, alcoholism, depression and even PTSD does not produce that severe a departure from reality...

Yes they do, as I pointed out. Especially when you have two or more act in concert.

Vanni Fucci (external - login to view) PWND


Quote:

There we see that neither PTSD nor Traumatic Brain Injury include psychosis as a symptom.

I think I'll take clinical data over a cherry picked interview in the Seatle Weekly blog thanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Do you have access to his medical records. No - your question is BS

In Vanni's defence, neither do I. But given some of the claims that have been made of his actions pre alleged act.

I'm guessing there are some serious issues at play.

Quote:

It an take years for PTSD to be diagnosed. Fact

True.
 
Goober
+2
#533
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Even so, because the clinical definition of PTSD does not include psychosis, PTSD cannot be used as an insanity defense...Fact!

Wrong again. It also leads to psychosis which combined with PTSD is very difficult to treat.

Now perhaps you should find something you know about. Because this ain't it.
 
CDNBear
+1
#534
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Even so, because the clinical definition of PTSD does not include psychosis, PTSD cannot be used as an insanity defense...Fact!

Do you know what a "flashback" is?

Ever seen one play out?

It's a break from reality.

Stop moving the goalposts.
 
Vanni Fucci
#535
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

IYes they do, as I pointed out. Especially when you have two or more act in concert.

Evidence to support you claim please

CDNBEear PWND!!


Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I think I'll take clinical data over a cherry picked interview in the Seatle Weekly blog thanks.

Quoting the US Army's former top psychologist is not good enough for you?

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Do you know what a "flashback" is?

Ever seen one play out?

It's a break from reality.

From the link you provided on PTSD:

Quote:

The signs and symptoms of PTSD are categorized into three major types; the symptoms associated with re-experiencing the incident, avoiding the incident and the sudden increase in anxiety.


Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Stop moving the goalposts.

You seem to say that a lot when you haven't got a valid rebuttal...perhaps it is you who is experiencing a departure from reality?

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Wrong again. It also leads to psychosis which combined with PTSD is very difficult to treat.

Now perhaps you should find something you know about. Because this ain't it.

Leads to psychosis therefore means that it is not a symptom of PTSD, which is exactly what I said...

He has not been diagnosed with any form of psychosis, so therefore I am correct...

Suck it!
 
CDNBear
+1
#536
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Evidence to support you claim please

Sure, since you obviously missed it the first time...

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

LOL

Ummm, ya, OK.

Psychotic Depression: Losing Touch With Reality - Depression Center - EverydayHealth.com (external - login to view)

Facts about Drugs and Alcohol-Drug and Alcohol (external - login to view)

What are the main symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder? - by John Louie Ramos - Helium (external - login to view)

Psychosis, Brain Injury, Complications, Causes, Symptoms (external - login to view)

Vanni Fucci (external - login to view) PWND again...

ETA: Again.

Quote:

CDNBear PWND me!!

FIFY, and CDNBear only has one e.

Quote:

Quoting the US Army's former top psychologist is not good enough for you?

Not when her cherry picked comments contradict clinical data.

It's not the first time I've seen some expert make mistakes, in an interview. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an interview hacked by a media outlet.

So when are you going to take on the people pushing for capital punishment? Just askin'.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

You seem to say that a lot...

Well, when dealing with the intellectually dishonest and ideologues like yourself, I see it get done a lot. I always feel the need to point it out to them. In the faint hope you'll stop being so dishonest.
 
Goober
#537
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Evidence to support you claim please

CDNBEear PWND!!




Quoting the US Army's former top psychologist is not good enough for you?



It manifests itself in avoidance of a trigger...not massacre of innocents...




You seem to say that a lot when you haven't got a valid rebuttal...perhaps it is you who is experiencing a departure from reality?



Leads to psychosis therefore means that it is not a symptom of PTSD, which is exactly what I said...

He has not been diagnosed with any form of psychosis, so therefore I am correct...

Suck it!

Wrong again Buckey -
Again - You do not have access to his med records - neither does that report you posted. FACT

PTSD can and does lead to psychosis - Try and read what I wrote. What did that US report state - Psychotic episode
Now suck it up.
 
Vanni Fucci
#538
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

So when are you going to take on the people pushing for capital punishment? Just askin'.

Why would I?

They have their views, and they in no way threaten mine, because theirs will never be realized...

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Wrong again Buckey

Oh fun nicknames! Can I call you douche canoe?

Quote:

Again - You do not have access to his med records - neither does that report you posted. FACT

You're right, I'm just talking out my ***, but then so are you, because you have no access to those records to prove you point either...so how about we both just STFU!

Quote:

PTSD can and does lead to psychosis - Try and read what I wrote. What did that US report state - Psychotic episode
Now suck it up.

Read what I wrote...I agreed that it can lead to psychosis, but is not a symptom of PTSD, and because there has been no report that he's been diagnosed as having psychotic episodes, we can't make that assumption...
 
Goober
#539
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Why would I?

Can you differentiate between opinion and fact. Can you Bucky - Start sucking.

They have their views, and they in no way threaten mine, because theirs will never be realized...

As details emerged over the past few days about Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, the once admirable soldier accused of massacring Afghan civilians, the horrific crime became even more unfathomable. Some have suggested that PTSD, or the traumatic brain injury he suffered a couple years ago, might have caused him to snap. But Elspeth Ritchie, the Army's former top psychiatrist, thinks there must be more to it.
Ritchie, who left her Army post a couple years ago and is now the chief clinical officer for the District of Columbia's mental health department, says PTSD is associated with "hypervigilance, numbing, flashbacks"--but not the "kind of violence Bales that allegedly committed." Similarly, she says TBI commonly causes nausea and dizziness, but not an impulse to massacre women and children.
 
CDNBear
#540
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Why would I?

They have their views, and they in no way threaten mine, because theirs will never be realized...

But you seemed so adamant about not putting down the ill in the other thread.

Even by your own link, it's looking like he may very well have been mentally ill.

I guess you gave up trying to pedal your nonsense, since you ignored the rest of my post.

Good call, I was starting to feel embarrassed for you. Again.
 
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