Another Shooting?? Shocking !! (not)


skookumchuck
#91
It has been stated that the violent crime rate has dropped noticeably and in some places dramatically in the approximately 30 states who have adopted the concealed carry of handguns. I wonder how those stats can be skewed? Or spun.
I do not believe that a criminal record check (including domestic violence "allegations") are necessary to acquire a drivers license to control several thousand lbs of "potential" mayhem on wheels.
 
L Gilbert
#92
It's all very well to spew stats about shootings, but try comparing them to the gun laws that countries have. Mexico has some of the most draconian laws in the world. Yet the States has fewer shootings per capita. And I'd make a bet the reason why is because of the packing laws there. You try and roll someone for their cash when they are likely to stick the muzzle of a .357 or something up your nostril and you're just plain stupid.
 
karrie
+3 / -1
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

It had nothing to do with the poster, or even the post, and everything to do with the title. It was a gloat. A gloat over a shooting. I'm curious if you'd gloat equally if the same thing happened at Dawson College again? Or at Ecole Polytechnique?

Wow, so long after the fact, you've already rebutted the post, when it was posted, and you still feel the need to give it a neg rep? Talk about petty childishness.... enjoy yours in return.
 
Ocean Breeze
-1
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

It's all very well to spew stats about shootings, but try comparing them to the gun laws that countries have. Mexico has some of the most draconian laws in the world. Yet the States has fewer shootings per capita. And I'd make a bet the reason why is because of the packing laws there. You try and roll someone for their cash when they are likely to stick the muzzle of a .357 or something up your nostril and you're just plain stupid.

What exactly are the Mexican gun laws. (ok , I can look it up......but prefer to see it here in discussion)

Which country(s) have the best and most effective gun laws on the planet?? what makes them effective?? And what can we learn from them??

thanks.

Ya know stats are totally meaningless when someone loses a loved one, a child, or is crippled for life as a result of a shooting "incident"?? How do "stats" measure the grief and torment that is the result. Stats are important as long as they don't dehumanize a situation .... and the realityis PEOPLE are not NUMBERS. They are flesh and blood with feelings ....all of which are vulnerable .

but, to those that cherish your guns. No need to worry......they are here to stay and probably increase in presence and destruction. That seems to be the way of the world. Strange set of priorities. Those of us who's work has involved SAVING lives, mending the results of these gun shootings.....and dealing with the families of the ones injured and killed.....and seeing the ravages resulting from gun shots as well as the grief stricken faces of their loved ones......... have a different understanding of what is important . The ones doing the shooting.......regardless of the circumstances...........have NO idea of the effects of their actions on so many surrounding the target of their shots. The problem is that many simply don't care.

Each application for a gun ownership permit........should be accompanied by a mandatory visit to an active ER that sees the gun shot victims come to. AND a mandatory visit to the morgue. Particularly when young people and children are the victims and have had their life cut short by some gun loving fanatic. gone crazy. Only then , they might appreciate the whole picture of responsible gun ownership. Plus they must pass a course in handling a gun, actually shooting it . taking it apart, putting it together and understanding all about how these weapons work.

And NO.......no amount of TV violence can compare to the real thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Wow, so long after the fact, you've already rebutted the post, when it was posted, and you still feel the need to give it a neg rep? Talk about petty childishness.... enjoy yours in return.

As the post must have been redundant.......I apologize. My bad. *for the redundancy)
 
wulfie68
#95
I do not own a firearm and really have no intention of buying one in the foreseeable future but there is some serious overreaction here. I did grow up with hunting rifles and shotguns in our house and see nothing wrong with that, provided the owners take my parents' approach with regard to teaching responsibility around them. I have never owned and don't see a reason for owning a handgun (personally I DON'T buy into the whole protection thing: perhaps I've lived a sheltered life but I'm just not that paranoid), but I don't agree with a lot fo the reactions I see to them, as long as owners are responsible with them.

When I see reports of incidents, like what happened in Cleveland, I am deeply saddened, and yes my first instinct is to question where the kid got the weapon. However I know that even if firearms are out of the equation, other things can still be and will be used. The other day I saw a report of a 10 yr old girl dead after she was in a school yard fight with another girl: no evidence of weapons was found by police, just 2 kids beating on each other.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Ya know stats are totally meaningless when someone loses a loved one, a child, or is crippled for life as a result of a shooting "incident"?? How do "stats" measure the grief and torment that is the result. Stats are important as long as they don't dehumanize a situation .... and the realityis PEOPLE are not NUMBERS. They are flesh and blood with feelings ....all of which are vulnerable .

I can sympathize and agree with this to a degree. It IS tragic when someone is hurt or killed because of someone else's unlawful and/or negligent actions but that isn't only true for firearms: its true for drivers, its true for unethical/irresponsible business practices and for any number of other causes of harm.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

but, to those that cherish your guns. No need to worry......they are here to stay and probably increase in presence and destruction. That seems to be the way of the world. Strange set of priorities. Those of us who's work has involved SAVING lives, mending the results of these gun shootings.....and dealing with the families of the ones injured and killed.....and seeing the ravages resulting from gun shots as well as the grief stricken faces of their loved ones......... have a different understanding of what is important . The ones doing the shooting.......regardless of the circumstances...........have NO idea of the effects of their actions on so many surrounding the target of their shots. The problem is that many simply don't care.

Does the same hold true for people who own cars (which are responsible for more death and mayhem in our society than guns)? For people who own blunt objects and knives (each responsible for more murders and violent crimes in Canada, than firearms)?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Each application for a gun ownership permit........should be accompanied by a mandatory visit to an active ER that sees the gun shot victims come to. AND a mandatory visit to the morgue.

And how will this be paid for? Not everyone who is applying for an ownership permit lives in a large urban area that has gunshot victims in their hospital or morgue. Many are small town/rural owners. Again are you willing to demand the same for drivers, people who own knives, etc or perhaps smokers (another activity believed to be responsible for more death and chronic effects than firearms)?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Particularly when young people and children are the victims and have had their life cut short by some gun loving fanatic. gone crazy.

Young people are killed in any number of situations, often because of their own sense of invincibility. Its always a tragedy when it happens but not every or even most youth deaths are related to "gun loving fanatics". I'm not adverse to trying to eliminate these tragedies but lets address the most common causes first, shall we?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Only then , they might appreciate the whole picture of responsible gun ownership. Plus they must pass a course in handling a gun, actually shooting it . taking it apart, putting it together and understanding all about how these weapons work.

I wholeheartedly endorse requiring firearm ownership applicants to prove their proficiency (i.e. provide proof they have been trained in safe handling and storage of firearms). That's perhaps the only thing in the quoted hysteria that I DO agree with. I think that as far as the American "obsession" with firearms goes, that's something that does need to be brought into the equation in some states that don't already have that requirement. I don't agree that instituting Canadian laws in the US would work, because of the subtle differences in their society and culture (not to mention the number of handguns out in the general populace...).
 
earth_as_one
#96
While I agree that guns don't kill people and that people kill people, guns make it easier for people to kill people. If more Mexicans could afford handguns and they were as prevalent in Mexico as they are in the US, I'm sure more Mexican criminals would use handguns to commit crimes. I would expect increased access to handguns in Mexico would also increase their murder rate. More handguns would probably decrease Mexico's attempted murder rate.

Few people have a "need" for a handgun, unlike a car, which are required by many/most people... ie. people who deliver pizza for a living for example. Nearly everyone who lives in a rural area and uses their car to drive to work and buy groceries needs a car. But I can't think of a single person outside law enforcement and security who require a handgun. However having a .22 handgun would be "handy" while deer or moose hunting. Ruffed grouse seem to know it would be dumb to attempt to hunt them with a .308 rifle. Carrying two rifles would be awkward. So being able to hunt upland game birds with a small caliber pistol or hand crossbow could be justified, even though that would be illegal according to current laws.

Firearms aren't without risks, otherwise, they'd be sold at "Toys R US", and children would play with them. So they must be controlled and regulated.
 
karrie
+2
#97
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post


As the post must have been redundant.......I apologize. My bad. *for the redundancy)

lol... yet another neg rep, neat apology.
 
wulfie68
+6
#98  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

lol... yet another neg rep, neat apology.

Neg rep from Ocean Breeze is really positive karma from the rest of the universe
 
Ocean Breeze
#99
Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68View Post

Neg rep from Ocean Breeze is really positive karma from the rest of the universe

that's great. Like your positive twist on things. Have a nice day.

You use the word "hysteria". If your assessment of a posters input is "hysteria"....... than I suggest you volunteer to help in the ER and see what gun shots yeild in the form of injuries ...and the amount of skill it takes to fix them........if they can be fixed.

Yes......there are all kinds of other methods that the culture of violence partakes in. And they too yeild horrific bodily harm. But that is not the topic and that rationalization does not excuse the amount of gun abuse. All you are doing is validating the existence of a culture of violence. In that , you would be correct..

You inquired : who would pay for it?? as in pay for time in the morgue and time in the ER. ?? IF any payment would be required......it would be paid for by the one seeking gun ownership. Just call it paying for gun education . Usually no pay is nec as both areas are more than willing to teach the consequences of shootings.

The morgue visits have been done on a small scale with young (early teens) school kids........and they had a powerful impact . Sure makes gun ownerhip and use a whole lot less glamorous than seen on the telie. There have been trips to the ER by some student groups to see the results of gunshot wounds. Again........powerful and lasting impact.

Hysteria?? How about the author of that comment volunteer to advise the family of the victim of what happened, how thier loved one died and deal with the reaction to their loss. & grief. Then come back and tell us this is a" hysterical" response to a serious and deadly issue in today's culture.

How about the trauma that witnesses suffer.?? Seeing your school mates hurt and killed due to gunshots leaves a lasting affect.

Unless of course..........society has become so jaded and conditioned to gun shootings now........that it is hardly a ripple in its collective consciousness.
Last edited by Ocean Breeze; Mar 2nd, 2012 at 03:39 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#100
Guns in Mexico: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law (external - login to view)

Mexican Gun Laws (external - login to view)

Of course, if there were no guns, there'd be no shootings. But there would be an increase in stabbings, beatings, poisonings, etc.
 
taxslave
#101
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

that's great. Like your positive twist on things. Have a nice day.
You use the word "hysteria". If your assessment of a posters input is "hysteria"....... than I suggest you volunteer to help in the ER and see what gun shots yeild in the form of injuries ...and the amount of skill it takes to fix them........if they can be fixed.
Yes......there are all kinds of other methods that the culture of violence partakes in. And they too yeild horrific bodily harm. But that is not the topic and that rationalization does not excuse the amount of gun abuse. All you are doing is validating the existence of a culture of violence. In that , you would be correct..
You inquired : who would pay for it?? as in pay for time in the morgue and time in the ER. ?? IF any payment would be required......it would be paid for by the one seeking gun ownership. Just call it paying for gun education . Usually no pay is nec as both areas are more than willing to teach the consequences of shootings.
The morgue visits have been done on a small scale with young (early teens) school kids........and they had a powerful impact . Sure makes gun ownerhip and use a whole lot less glamorous than seen on the telie. There have been trips to the ER by some student groups to see the results of gunshot wounds. Again........powerful and...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Of course if even one of those class mates had a hand gun many lives could have been saved.
 
earth_as_one
-1
#102
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Guns in Mexico: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law (external - login to view)

Mexican Gun Laws (external - login to view)

Of course, if there were no guns, there'd be no shootings. But there would be an increase in stabbings, beatings, poisonings, etc.

Which tend to have a lower rate of success than shootings. So the murder rate goes down and the attempted murder rate goes up.
 
JLM
#103
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Which tend to have a lower rate of success than shootings. So the murder rate goes down and the attempted murder rate goes up.

And the debillitating injuries with life long costs that are much greater than a funeral!
 
Ocean Breeze
#104
Quote:

One person killed and at least two injured in shooting at Jefferson County, Texas, courthouse, judge says

Source: CNN breaking news mailing.
 
damngrumpy
+2
#105
What surprises me is that society has nothing to address the problem period. No I don't
think we should take all the guns away from people or start imprisoning people because
they might commit a crime. Society has to look at the bullying in schools and try to help
marginalized kids so the have some hope if nothing else. We tend to look as such a
program as an expense instead of an investment. We are so damn eager to punish the
people who are in trouble, rather than spend that same money addressing the problem
that created the feelings of alienation in the first place. How come governments and the
society in general are willing to spend money fixing things rather than preventing them?
Health care is another thing, we manage illness rather than preventing sickness.
 
Ocean Breeze
#106
Here we go again:

BREAKING NEWS: Five people reportedly shot and wounded at a Christian school in Oakland, Calif

msnbc.com - Breaking news, science and tech news, world news, US news, local news- msnbc.com (external - login to view)
 
taxslave
#107
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Here we go again:
BREAKING NEWS: Five people reportedly shot and wounded at a Christian school in Oakland, Calif
msnbc.com - Breaking news, science and tech news, world news, US news, local news- msnbc.com (external - login to view)


And if at least one of them had been armed chances are fewer or perhaps none of them would have been wounded.
 
Ocean Breeze
#108
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

And if at least one of them had been armed chances are fewer or perhaps none of them would have been wounded.

If that had been the case........we would probably have a regular full on shootout . (chances are ....)

gosh, maybe all students should carry guns now. (for "self protection" of course) One can imagine the scenarious that would evolve from that.

: The US culture of violence is well entrenched now.


What is amazing is that so many of us attended schools, colleges, specialized training , and never had to concern ourselves with "self defense" or the number of guns floating around......It never even crossed our minds. We did not have to live in gated/ security guarded communities, and were virtually free of all the fear mongering , and still survived to be responsible , reasonable , sensible and humanitarian oriented adults.

Quote:

A shooting at Oikos University in east Oakland, California, resulted in multiple fatalities, an Oakland police spokeswoman says.

A suspect was taken into custody after the shooting at the religious school, police spokeswoman Johnna Watson says.

Source: CNN breaking news mailing.

more details emerging. Wonder what this shooters story is.
Last edited by Ocean Breeze; Apr 2nd, 2012 at 02:29 PM..
 
B00Mer
#109
nice nacro
 
JLM
#110
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

What surprises me is that society has nothing to address the problem period. No I don't
think we should take all the guns away from people or start imprisoning people because
they might commit a crime. Society has to look at the bullying in schools and try to help
marginalized kids so the have some hope if nothing else. We tend to look as such a
program as an expense instead of an investment. We are so damn eager to punish the
people who are in trouble, rather than spend that same money addressing the problem
that created the feelings of alienation in the first place. How come governments and the
society in general are willing to spend money fixing things rather than preventing them?
Health care is another thing, we manage illness rather than preventing...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
That's just it, we're going broke buying band aids!
 
damngrumpy
#111
Another shooting today at a Christian School this time what a bloody sad state of affairs.
Again how do we determine who is going to do something like this? There is no way of
course and when someone tries to make the decision they become a Zimmerman and
kill someone for talking to his girlfriend. All because the believed he looked suspicious.

These things happen due to people in gangs trying to kill each other. They happen due
to the belief system that abortion Doctors should die and God said so.
These things happen because people feel demoted in life and feel that others are getting
more than they can cope with. It happens because people get fired and feel hopeless.
Mental stress, and people on drugs. Sometimes its bullying that causes someone to snap
and the list goes on.

My point is, it doesn't matter if guns are legal or not, it doesn't matter how many laws we
have in place it does not matter whether someone intervened or not. It will always happen
as long as there are people. We become angry because we ourselves feel hopeless and
somewhat afraid as well. The answer is there is no answer to prevention, it can happen
at random to anyone anywhere, America, Norway, Canada, anywhere.
 
Ocean Breeze
#112
Quote:

Oakland shooting suspect upset by students' teasing


7 killed, 3 wounded in 'cold-blooded execution in the classroom' of small Christian university

This shooter must have had some serious issues (emotional/ psych ) that either went unattended to, or undetected . When "teasing" becomes an excuse to go on a rampage..... society is in serious trouble indeed. (sadly)

********** can we anticipate /predict this kind of behavior?? Interesting how easy it is to see the pattern of dsyfunction that led up to the event ....when using hindsite vision. Perhaps, if schools had better psych departments as part of the health care , behaviors that can potentially be problematic would be indentified. Many of these CAN be prevented if the skilled people are available for consultation and if society did not still consider abnormal behaviors some kind of aberration.

The easy availability of weapons does not help minimize these incidents. Aggression is honored and seen as strength and "fighting back " or some other catch phrase. ., so the general attitude of society plays into an environment where these incidents occur with monotonous and tragic regularity. And to repeat from previous posts.......a culture that needs to use war , and create a war mentality in order to solve problems ........seldom solves the problem it is dealing with , and usually makes it much worse.

There is no need to attach the word "war" on problems. and yet we hear it all the time. The kind of mindset that accompanies this kind of belief system.... sees things only in black and white, "good" and "evil" IOW.......extremes.

This principle would apply to any society where aggression , verbal, physical, etc is a paramount componant of its mindset.
Last edited by Ocean Breeze; Apr 3rd, 2012 at 04:59 PM..
 
EagleSmack
+2
#113
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Here we go again:

BREAKING NEWS: Five people reportedly shot and wounded at a Christian school in Oakland, Calif

msnbc.com - Breaking news, science and tech news, world news, US news, local news- msnbc.com (external - login to view)

Yup...here we go. You relishing in the deaths of others.
 

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