Harper dismisses 2000 scientists

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
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Backwater, Ontario.
Nuggs, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't been able to access the smilies catalog for eons either. the only smilies that work are the ones I know how to type.


BUT


That's an issue for the tech threads. Andem can't find tech complaints buried in political threads.




Thanks Karrie, there used to be a plethora of smilies available; now long gone. None of mine work. Not really important I suppose, except they did add a bit of lively to a post.


Glad to see someone reply who has no agenda. Thanks again.

Tonington I really think your politics are starting to show.

The department itself admits some of it's libraries only get around 15 visitors a year.
The CBC, which hates Harper and the Con's with a passion reports that the libraries are being digitized for public dissemination.
The CBC, which hates Harper and the Cons's with a passion has, of yet, found no evidence of wanton book destruction, or lack of the digitization process or any other forms of skullduggery or deception.
The Public Service departments involved in this process, which certainly involve more than just the DFO report no wanton book destruction, or lack of digitization or any other skullduggery.
Federal Public servants tend to be Liberals and also tend to hate Harper and the Conservatives.
THe federal opposition parties consisting of the Dip's, the Lib's and the Greenies with all their resources, contacts and spies report no evidence of wanton book destruction, lack of digitization or any other forms of skullduggery or deception.

Thus, Tonington this whole evil conspiracy seems to rest with you.

I guess we will all find out for sure some time in the future.
What more is there to say?



That you are full of shyte would be a good place to start.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Tonington I really think your politics are starting to show.

And what of them? Well I've never been shy about it. Neither have you regarding yours. Our current government has made a habit of limiting our access to government scientists and the results of the research we are paying for, they've thrown out habitat protection, they've reduced the delivery of services, they've cut thousands of scientists, and now they're closing libraries to save $443,000. They've made changes to the SRED tax credits that favour large corporations like the one I work for over smaller firms that are equally driving innovation. I think these are all mistakes. That is my politics and I've always been clear about that. I don't trust them one bit when it comes to digitizing many thousands of old volumes and reports. This is the same government that promised transparency and hasn't delivered, so why should I, or better yet we take them at their word here, especially in my case where I have first-hand knowledge of this not being the case?

This has nothing to do with brands, that seems to be your thing though. Listing Cons, Libs, Dips, Greens, I don't care about that. All I care about are the impacts of decisions, I really couldn't care less which logo is on the letterhead.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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cutting back on science might actually bring down tuition fees as scientists compete for jobsas university professors.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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cutting back on science might actually bring down tuition fees as scientists compete for jobsas university professors.

How do you figure that? Most universities pay their professors salaries based on whatever collective bargaining the faculty association has worked out with the school administration. What it means is there could be a larger pool of candidates for any new hires.
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
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And what of them? Well I've never been shy about it. Neither have you regarding yours. Our current government has made a habit of limiting our access to government scientists and the results of the research we are paying for, they've thrown out habitat protection, they've reduced the delivery of services, they've cut thousands of scientists, and now they're closing libraries to save $443,000. They've made changes to the SRED tax credits that favour large corporations like the one I work for over smaller firms that are equally driving innovation. I think these are all mistakes. That is my politics and I've always been clear about that. I don't trust them one bit when it comes to digitizing many thousands of old volumes and reports. This is the same government that promised transparency and hasn't delivered, so why should I, or better yet we take them at their word here, especially in my case where I have first-hand knowledge of this not being the case?

This has nothing to do with brands, that seems to be your thing though. Listing Cons, Libs, Dips, Greens, I don't care about that. All I care about are the impacts of decisions, I really couldn't care less which logo is on the letterhead.


Apart from saying you don't trust this government you have not really explained how this book destruction theory of yours has escaped detection by the national media or the opposition parties.
Nor have you dealt with the departments own admission that some of these library facilities receive less than 15 physical visits a year.

But lets move on.
You certainly do make a strong point how valuable and useful these libraries are to you.
And since most of the information in these DFO libraries seems to be highly specific and research oriented I have a couple of questions.
You say you work for a large corporation, in research I assume, and I am also assuming that said corporation is both non-government owned and for profit?
And, if memory serves, this corporation makes, or researches pharmaceuticals some of which are used in the fish farming industry?
Also, as far as I know, the majority of larger international salmon farms are owned and operated, for profit, by the Norwegians?

My point is this; your research and development company is accessing a research library for the benefit of its shareholders (the majority of whom may not even be Canadian) run at Canadian taxpayer expense.
Now that seems like a good deal for your companies shareholders I must say.
How about we whip up a massive taxpayer funded research library on resource extraction and oil drilling for the befit of Syncrude?
Maybe a large research organization on how to cut costs when sourcing out cheap plastic crap for Wal-Mart's reference uses?
Where was a research library tailored to my needs when I started my company?

I think private companies should pay their own bills.
And I also think that taxpayers are better served with their tax dollars remaining in their pockets as versus subsidizing large profitable corporations.

I am not opposed to tax payer funded research for the common good of Canadians.
The Fed's pour funding into research universities for just that purpose.
And those tax payer funded universities tend to have extensive and detailed libraries.
And it's all good.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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How do you figure that? Most universities pay their professors salaries based on whatever collective bargaining the faculty association has worked out with the school administration. What it means is there could be a larger pool of candidates for any new hires.

Many would go to the private sector, pushing down private sector salaries. This in turn would make high tuition fees less attractive to potential science majors. This would reduce the number of applicants, forcing universities to give science professors an ultimatum. At that stage, once layoffs are in order, they'll become more malleable.

This can also help the poor in that with scientists being less expensive, it becomes less expensive for NGOs to hire researchers, which in turn makes it less expensive to do research on what contributors really want.

Much government science is miltary or political in nature anyway.
 

Zipperfish

House Member
Apr 12, 2013
3,688
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36
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And what of them? Well I've never been shy about it. Neither have you regarding yours. Our current government has made a habit of limiting our access to government scientists and the results of the research we are paying for, they've thrown out habitat protection, they've reduced the delivery of services, they've cut thousands of scientists, and now they're closing libraries to save $443,000. They've made changes to the SRED tax credits that favour large corporations like the one I work for over smaller firms that are equally driving innovation. I think these are all mistakes. That is my politics and I've always been clear about that. I don't trust them one bit when it comes to digitizing many thousands of old volumes and reports. This is the same government that promised transparency and hasn't delivered, so why should I, or better yet we take them at their word here, especially in my case where I have first-hand knowledge of this not being the case?

This has nothing to do with brands, that seems to be your thing though. Listing Cons, Libs, Dips, Greens, I don't care about that. All I care about are the impacts of decisions, I really couldn't care less which logo is on the letterhead.

They aren't digitizing a lot of stuff. They are disposing of it altogether. The Archives, that used to house old records, isn't accepting anything, so there is literally tons upon tons of stuff that is being shredded or landfilled.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Apart from saying you don't trust this government you have not really explained how this book destruction theory of yours has escaped detection by the national media or the opposition parties.

It's not a theory, media have already reported on finding dumpsters filled with material from these libraries. DFO scientists have said the material is gone, in some cases destroyed, in others taken by the public or university academics. There's no records anywhere of what was digitized and what was not.

Nor have you dealt with the departments own admission that some of these library facilities receive less than 15 physical visits a year.

Which ones? All of the ones being closed? I can't comment intelligently on speculation.

To be clear, I'm fine with digitized material. However they haven't said where the information will be found, and since it's all PR responses in the media, I'm less than confident that they have planned this. And we know that material has been destroyed, and we know that some material is unaccounted for.

My point is this; your research and development company is accessing a research library for the benefit of its shareholders (the majority of whom may not even be Canadian) run at Canadian taxpayer expense.
Now that seems like a good deal for your companies shareholders I must say.

Yes to most of what you said about the nature of my industry. And yes it's a good deal to the company, a company that contributes tax receipts to the province and to Ottawa.

How about we whip up a massive taxpayer funded research library on resource extraction and oil drilling for the befit of Syncrude?

Oh, I think your politics are showing...:lol: You earlier called the libraries being closed small and now for the purposes of your parallel argument they are massive tax payer funded research laboratories? The big difference between the two, is that resource extraction is done by companies, unless you're advocating for tax payer funded control of resource extraction.

Fisheries management is a government responsibility. The information I was looking for is old research on the physiology of downstream migrating Atlantic salmon. If it was in an electronic database, I would have used it, instead of emailing my colleague. As I said, I'm quite fine with electronic databases, that's basically what I do at work every day. When I visit my colleague I usually arrive with a list of topics to peruse in the library. To me, it's far better if they are digitized.

But, as I've explained multiple times already, it's not clear what has been digitized, where it is being stored, or how it can be accessed. I'm not satisfied with government assurances that nothing will be lost. If I had to repeat the work of those who came before me, well that's a waste. Science works when we move forward, and the value of the work is shared knowledge. If it's not shared then it's not of much use for the public good at all.

I think private companies should pay their own bills.
And I also think that taxpayers are better served with their tax dollars remaining in their pockets as versus subsidizing large profitable corporations.

That's a funny thing for an oil and gas industry shill to say. You get your own types of tax credits that my company can't apply for.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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And farm credits when you aren't a farm. So don't go bitching about O&G.

I'm simply commenting that it's funny for someone from an industry who receives lots of tax credits, and is very profitable, to bitch about another. I guess that flew over your head. :roll:
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Odd how it is hate for fed employees yet many know deep down some cuts are idiotic.
 

B00Mer

Keep Calm and Carry On
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And farm credits when you aren't a farm. So don't go bitching about O&G.

Quite honestly I think the Canadian Gov't need to cut aid to farmers and corporate aid, it's just another form of welfare...

If you can't make it on your own in an industry, there is a good chance you shouldn't be doing it in the first place...

I hated the Government bailout of the Banks and GM.. let'em fail then break them up..

What happen to the entrepreneurial spirt of the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's - they didn't go crying to the govenment for hand outs... the business people of today make me sick.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Quite honestly I think the Canadian Gov't need to cut aid to farmers and corporate aid, it's just another form of welfare...

If you can't make it on your own in an industry, there is a good chance you shouldn't be doing it in the first place...

I hated the Government bailout of the Banks and GM.. let'em fail then break them up..

What happen to the entrepreneurial spirt of the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's - they didn't go crying to the govenment for hand outs... makes me sick.

First place would be Ethanol.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I'm simply commenting that it's funny for someone from an industry who receives lots of tax credits, and is very profitable, to bitch about another. I guess that flew over your head. :roll:

The bird that opened your yap and stuck your foot in it?

Quite honestly I think the Canadian Gov't need to cut aid to farmers and corporate aid, it's just another form of welfare...

If you can't make it on your own in an industry, there is a good chance you shouldn't be doing it in the first place...

I hated the Government bailout of the Banks and GM.. let'em fail then break them up..

What happen to the entrepreneurial spirt of the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's - they didn't go crying to the govenment for hand outs... the business people of today make me sick.

Canadian Gov gives no aid. That,s a Yank thing.