Boy kills himself with family gun

[bobnoorduyn]

and what does the gun owner do in a sudden threat situation when his gun is properly locked in the safe or some protective gun holding unit???

They can either be a victim, like you and all your like minded friends would have it, or they can get to it quickly enough to make it workable, I can have a workable firearm ready in under a minute.

One can run all kinds of what if scenarios as it relates to guns, threats , (particularly if the threat him/herself is holding a gun at you & demanding whatever he/she is demanding...)
.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but it sounds like you want everyone to be a compliant victim and rely on the good nature of an assailant to not do to your children what they are doing or are going to so to you. It's what the police chiefs have been telling us to do for years, be a victim. They'll come, take pictures, notify your next of kin, and maybe catch the perpetrator at a later date.

seems that FIREARMS and a child's death resulting from one is the TOPIC here. If you want to discuss car safety and drivers....start a thread to that effect. It might be an interesting one.

It's all related, if you want to have a discussion in a bubble, fill yer boots.

Personal attack. Not relavent to the topic. Come on .....there is plenty to debate about guns , gun owners, and all that surrounds the issue. Nothing to do with freedom. Look at all the guns in nations that are not even as free as we are. IF freedom is measured by gun ownership and usage .......then most of the world is free .

Personal attack? Sorry, didn't know you were that touchy, but these are your ideas, and it is relevant; you want a vetting system that is far and away more odious than what we have, and is in fact what Trudeau envisaged, and he was not exactly a freedom lover.

It has everything to do with freedom, look at all the nations that confiscate guns and see how free they are. Plus, as you limit firearm ownership, the more the populace is dependant on the state for protection, (but the state can't protect you). The more dependant you are on the state, the less freedom you have.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Well, I prefer a good security system and a well trained dog . Please don't assume one is a victim just because they are against guns.

but when it comes to gun usage ........there is always a victim. intended or not. & that does not cover the families involved that are part of the ripple effect.

Look, if folks want to own guns that badly fine. Just be sure they can live with the consequences. this incident is case in point.

 

[lone wolf]

Why would you be so cruel to your dog as to risk exposing him to violence?

 

[karrie]

Pretty weak law to me

One of the main purposes of the judicial system is to correct behaviour. Do you think this dad needs the law to teach him a lesson about gun storage? Is he at risk of repeat offending? Would taking the father of her child away as well as her losing her child give the mother a feeling of justice having been served?

Well, I prefer a good security system and a well trained dog .... Just be sure they can live with the consequences. this incident is case in point.

Can you live with the day a dog trained to injure gets loose and attacks someone? Because that happens WAY more often than gun accidents.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

One of the main purposes of the judicial system is to correct behaviour. Do you think this dad needs the law to teach him a lesson about gun storage? Is he at risk of repeat offending? Would taking the father of her child away as well as her losing her child give the mother a feeling of justice having been served?

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Can you live with the day a dog trained to injure gets loose and attacks someone? Because that happens WAY more often than gun accidents.

when I said a well trained dog........that is what I meant. How often do the trained Sheperds that the cops use "get away " and cause injury". Most of the time they are off the leash. Dogs that attack at random are NOT WELL TRAINED. COULD NOT live with having shot someone. No way . Have never even held a gun and never will. IF a highly trained dog is not realistic......then a good security system. That would be the choice.

In reality I have neither. . and yet we have been robbed ........in San Francisco. One of my favorite places to visit.

 

[karrie]

when I said a well trained dog........that is what I meant. How often do the trained Sheperds that the cops use "get away " and cause injury". Most of the time they are off the leash. Dogs that attack at random are NOT WELL TRAINED. COULD NOT live with having shot someone. No way . Have never even held a gun and never will. IF a highly trained dog is not realistic......then a good security system. That would be the choice.

In reality I have neither. . and yet we have been robbed ........in San Francisco. One of my favorite places to visit.

The only way to find out for sure if a dog isn't well trained is if it proves you wrong.

A handgun doesn't pose the same problem. It's highly predictable.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

The only way to find out for sure if a dog isn't well trained is if it proves you wrong.

A handgun doesn't pose the same problem. It's highly predictable.

Not sure I follow. How is a handgun "predictable? Does it not depend on outside variables?? Like the skill of the handler , the emotional state of the one handling the gun. The surroundings themselves?? Don't guns jam sometimes?? Maybe I have been watching too many CSI and crime stories ;-)

My money is on the well trained dog. (NOT a pitbull or something equally overly aggressive. That is not even a consideration) HEck.........even a small dog trained to alert on unusual sounds , would be fine by me. Yappy ones can do the job quite well.

 

[karrie]

Not sure I follow. How is a handgun "predictable? Does it not depend on outside variables?? Like the skill of the handler , the emotional state of the one handling the gun. The surroundings themselves?? Don't guns jam sometimes?? Maybe I have been watching too many CSI and crime stories ;-)

My money is on the well trained dog. (NOT a pitbull or something equally overly aggressive. That is not even a consideration)

Any dog trained to injure IS overly aggressive. Period.

With guns... the human factor is the variable.

With dogs, the variables are the trainer AND the dog AND the behaviour of the people around the dog. It's a nasty mix that often results (even from police dogs), in critical mistakes and injuries. Just google 'police dog mauls child' or 'police dog attacks bystander'. Even the 'well trained' make mistakes.

Keep in mind that what you're suggesting is that people you don't trust to properly maintain, store, or operate a gun, instead get and attempt to train a live animal to injure, that they have no control over if they haven't done the job of training it that they think they did.

 

[talloola]

Any dog trained to injure IS overly aggressive. Period.

With guns... the human factor is the variable.

With dogs, the variables are the trainer AND the dog AND the behaviour of the people around the dog. It's a nasty mix that often results (even from police dogs), in critical mistakes and injuries. Just google 'police dog mauls child' or 'police dog attacks bystander'. Even the 'well trained' make mistakes.

Keep in mind that what you're suggesting is that people you don't trust to properly maintain, store, or operate a gun, instead get and attempt to train a live animal to injure, that they have no control over if they haven't done the job of training it that they think they did.

I hear you karrie, and agree, but my read on the dog thing is, an untrained dog, 'like our labrador', is
a good security device, just being there, knowing he is there, and hearing his barking, and seeing his face,
would in most cases make the perpetrators decide to go next door where there is no dog.


But if they wanted to they could bring a piece of liver with them, would work in their favour.

 

[karrie]

I hear you karrie, and agree, but my read on the dog thing is, an untrained dog, 'like our labrador', is
a good security device, just being there, knowing he is there, and hearing his barking, and seeing his face,
would in most cases make the perpetrators decide to go next door where there is no dog.


But if they wanted to they could bring a piece of liver with them, would work in their favour.

my husband's family had a really aggressive outdoor dog when they had their farm. They thought he was an ideal watch dog... he'd only let someone out of their truck once one of the family was with them. They showed up one day and theyd been robbed, the house cleaned out of everything remotely valuable, and the dog was groggy. Whoever it was had simply drugged the poor thing.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

I hear you karrie, and agree, but my read on the dog thing is, an untrained dog, 'like our labrador', is
a good security device, just being there, knowing he is there, and hearing his barking, and seeing his face,
would in most cases make the perpetrators decide to go next door where there is no dog.


But if they wanted to they could bring a piece of liver with them, would work in their favour.

I had an Akita X at one time. Just the site of him and his size was enough to make folks take the wide berth. I too believe that any intruder hearing a dog yap........is going to think twice........as he has to assume the owner will be awake etc etc......and that could get more messy than they want to tangle with.

Maybe if the family of the boy who died had a dog instead of a gun........

 

[gerryh]

my husband's family had a really aggressive outdoor dog when they had their farm. They thought he was an ideal watch dog... he'd only let someone out of their truck once one of the family was with them. They showed up one day and theyd been robbed, the house cleaned out of everything remotely valuable, and the dog was groggy. Whoever it was had simply drugged the poor thing.

Guess a gun wouldn't have helped them either.

 

[karrie]

Maybe if the family of the boy who died had a dog instead of a gun........

I think you might want to go looking up all the cases where children die because they were left unsupervised with the family dog before you jump on that band wagon.

 

[talloola]

my husband's family had a really aggressive outdoor dog when they had their farm. They thought he was an ideal watch dog... he'd only let someone out of their truck once one of the family was with them. They showed up one day and theyd been robbed, the house cleaned out of everything remotely valuable, and the dog was groggy. Whoever it was had simply drugged the poor thing.

yeah, when one thinks about it, if people really want to enter a place where there are animals guarding,
or are 'just' there, there are many ways, easy ways of eliminating them from the danger they might have
by entering the premises.

the one you mentioned is one, and they could easily give them poison, or kill them, or empty out a big
bag of dog food, with fresh meat in an area where they can shut a door and the dog can't get out, and
doesn't care anyway cause he has food, I mean the animal shouldn't be able to outsmart the person, but I
guess there are some dumb crooks, who can't figure any of that out. lol

 

[karrie]

Guess a gun wouldn't have helped them either.

Nope, and I never claimed it would. But I also wouldn't claim that an inanimate object would pose a bigger threat to their lives or community than that aggressive dog would.

 

[lone wolf]

My dog's just as likely to tangle 'em in his chain....

 

[talloola]

I had an Akita X at one time. Just the site of him and his size was enough to make folks take the wide berth. I too believe that any intruder hearing a dog yap........is going to think twice........as he has to assume the owner will be awake etc etc......and that could get more messy than they want to tangle with.

Maybe if the family of the boy who died had a dog instead of a gun........

Yes, I think the majority of self respecting burgulars would avoid houses with dogs, even little ones,
as they interfere with their sneakiness, and the need for quiet.

guess its much different when they are approaching a person to harm them, but just the same, I am not
going to go everywhere I need to go with a gun on me, no way, and I also don't make a point of walking
around where i'm likely to be approached in that manner, if at all possible, and it is pretty well all
of the time.

i'm much more likely to be hit by a car, or have a car accident when out and about, than have anyone approach
me with a gun.

In the u.s. I would not feel that way, it seems every tom dick and harry packs a gun, so one would be
smart to travel by daylight, and stay in the crowds and not become a target, just be smart.

The thought of how many guns are being packed around below the 49th is alarming. Most people, in my opinion
do not know how to use a gun properly, have no training, and if they had to defend themselves, they would
probably shoot the perpetrator or an innocent bystander, out of sheer fright and nervousness, when it wasn't
necessary.

I don't know the stats, maybe colpy does, but it seems that if you don't have a gun when approached by
a mugger or a similar situation, you would be 'less' likely to be shot, than if you pulled out a gun,
then there are two of you with guns, what happens then, guess 'who' will be dead.

 

[taxslave]

when guns are sold........how do the sellers determine if the potential owner is going to be "responsible" or not?? OF course gun owners should be held responsible for any incidents their guns are involved in. (and the victims they kill or maim for life) Not all shootings leave victims dead. Sometimes the wounds are such that their life is permanently disabled leaving them dependant on others and the medical system.

Seems the owner of the gun causing this should be made to pay all expenses for recovery too. But they will claim "self defense" and ignore that .....unless they are sued.

It is not in all places that folks need a gun to make their point. Most places are safe to live in .....or safer by comparison. Seems that the mere presence of so many weapons on so many of the population creates an environment for potential disaster .

This is also an example of human neglegence. and plain carelessness. Even a professional sharp shooter is human and can momentarily leave his weapon exposed , thus creating the potential for disaster. so shooting skills have very little to do with momentary carelessness.

It is NOT up to the gun manufacturer or seller to determine if the purchaser is responsible. Same as it is NOT a car dealer's responsibility to determine if a car buyer is going to obey all traffic laws or drink & drive.
Read the gibberish you post and you will see why you get so many thumbs down.

This is a good case for gun control if it had been in place the gun would not have been under the car seat or it would have had a trigger lock on it.

It is a tragic event where the parents will suffer a life long emotional loss by their child's death

How do you figure that? By your convoluted logic all criminals in Canada must have registered their automatic handguns. Hows that one been working for you?

Drunk parents who kill their children in car accidents probably feel terrible afterwards too, but they will still be charged with criminal negligence. Leaving a loaded firearm within reach of a child or toddler is criminally negligent.

Obtaining a firearm acquisition certificate should be as difficult as obtaining a driver's license. After a criminal background check and passing a multiple choice exam, the applicant should have to take lessons at a gun club or with a licensed instructor, and finally pass a practical test.

Go apply for one. Much more difficult than getting a drivers license.

Guess a gun wouldn't have helped them either.

Only if it was rigged on a trip wire at the front door.

 

[L Gilbert]

WA lawmakers aren't pushing gun safety fast enough:

Washington state lawmakers push gun safety bill | CanadianBusiness.com

 

[JLM]

Yes, I think the majority of self respecting burgulars would avoid houses with dogs, even little ones,
as they interfere with their sneakiness, and the need for quiet.

guess its much different when they are approaching a person to harm them, but just the same, I am not
going to go everywhere I need to go with a gun on me, no way, and I also don't make a point of walking
around where i'm likely to be approached in that manner, if at all possible, and it is pretty well all
of the time.

.

You make a point Talloola but it is a little easier to pack than a 2 X 4. :lol: