Jesus never existed.

Dexter Sinister

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He ain't going to spell his name out for you! It would violate your free will to not believe.
There's one of the points where belief and logic part company for me. If god's real, it can't possibly be a violation of free will to know it.
This actually is an argument for God. All humans have a moral code written on their heart, put there by God so that you can recognize evil and injustice. If we are purely biological, and nature is impersonal, where does the moral standard come from?
That's C. S. Lewis's argument in Mere Christianity, but he couldn't make it work either. The moral standard comes from us. We are social creatures, but we're also individuals with different interests and desires, so we've worked out rules in our societies about what's acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and evolution has fitted us with the cognitive tools to do that. That's an oversimplification of course, textbooks could be written on that subject, but it's the essence of it; no further explanation is necessary. It's not necessary to postulate a source outside ourselves for our ability to make and enforce rules for ourselves. The existence of a deity doesn't explain anything, it just creates more things that need explaining, such as, where does the deity get his moral standards?

And on a related matter, people should stop claiming that you can't prove a negative. You can. In fact one of the basic rules of logic is a negative, the law of non-contradiction (a proposition cannot be both true and false), and it's provable. What people really mean is that you cannot inductively prove a negative, but that's trivial, you cannot inductively prove anything. The nature of induction is to make a conclusion probable, sometimes *highly* probable, such as your expectation that your home will be where you left it this morning when you get back from work, but not certain. The claim that a negative can't be proven, while it's false stated that way, just means people can justify keeping on believing things they want to believe regardless of the evidence against them, because induction is not incontrovertible.

But Sir Joe's right that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. All of the arguments for and against Jesus' existence here are inductive, and therefore not bulletproof, so no final proof is possible. Scott made the claim in the OP that Jesus never existed, and offered a pretty good inductive argument in support of it, which amounts to this: if Jesus existed and did the extraordinary things ascribed to him in the New Testament, there should be contemporary accounts of his activities by other chroniclers. There are no such accounts, all we have is a few passing mentions of Jesus' followers behaving in ways that irritated the authorities, there's no evidence in the historical record outside the Bible that Jesus was real. Therefore Jesus (probably) didn't exist, at least not in the form and role ascribed to him by Christianity.
 

L Gilbert

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He ain't going to spell his name out for you! It would violate your free will to not believe.
Yeah, hence the faith bit. I got that. But faith is only the hope that what you believe is true. A little bit of evidence would go a looooooooooooooooooooong way. No evidence, no belief.

This actually is an argument for God. All humans have a moral code written on their heart, put there by God so that you can recognize evil and injustice.
Or its simply something just built in regardless of imaginary beings.

If we are purely biological, and nature is impersonal, where does the moral standard come from?
Genetics and environment.

Well, the starry skies from the Father, and Jesus was with him at the time...
Yeah, right. Everything exists because this god made it that way. How do we know? The Bible tells us. Who wrote the Bible? Men did with guidance from this god. Which god? The one that made everything.

Of course they did, what kind of a God would throw us into this world without morals?
Exactly. Whatever society we are in is usually what dictates our morals.
 
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TeaBiscuit

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I believe Jesus existed ,but it does not mean the myth surrounding the man is true. That would require an act of faith in the supernatural.

How could an emperor of Rome not have access to 300 year old history.
Surely the person he adopted as his God, 300 years after his death ,would be known to him as real and not fiction.
 

L Gilbert

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One amazing thing about the bible is that when you actually sit down and read it with an open mind and heart, it seems completely unfathomable that this "story" is made out of imagination.
Yeah. I fell for the bundle for a while, too. Then I looked a little bit at other things. Like Taoism (the one that made the most sense and doesn't rely on faith), Islam, a little Hinduism and wondered why are these all different if there's only one god? And that led to more questions and extremely few answers outside of the book of confusion.

The whole book even challenges itself! The old test. being the "First Covenant" where God establishes his law, and promises to break into history. And when fallible man takes God's word, law, and promises and turns into flawed religion, God follows thru with his promise of breaking into history, and he breaks thru in a huge way! Jesus Christ being the "Second Covenant". A perfect, permanent solution to man achieving eternal life in paradise. It completely blows the OT out of the water!
If I were to write a guide about life and told the same messages the Bible does about how to live life, I'd come up with one sentence: live and let live; love and let love. The golden rule. And that rule has been around a lot longer than the Bible.

Jesus really did tells us the secrets to the universe. No writer could make this stuff up! Look at this:

be nice and loving to the person who is mean to you.......
I found it more rational to avoid them.

give to EVERY person who asks you
I am selective. I'm not about to give Jimmy Pattison money if he asks.

if a man sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well
Go for it, dood.

[/quote]pray for your enemies,[/quote]I don't have any.

never hold a grudge, forgive, so that the father may forgive you...
I hold grudges for perhaps minutes. They're a waste of brain activity.

[/quote]approach your heavenly father just a child approaches his earthly father...[/quote]Sorry. There is no heaven, no heavenly father, etc. in my life.

This really was God talking and living with humans, humbled before his creatures, and sacrificing his perfect life so we can reconcile with God...what other way can live up to this?
So the Bible says; and people like Josephus. Sorry, the Bible is untrustworthy concerning facts, and Josephus didn't show up til after this Jesus supposedly died. And even then, only menytioned that someone named Jesus (a name that's been attached to some 20 people at the time) was the brother of someone.
 

Cliffy

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I believe Jesus existed ,but it does not mean the myth surrounding the man is true. That would require an act of faith in the supernatural.

How could an emperor of Rome not have access to 300 year old history.
Surely the person he adopted as his God, 300 years after his death ,would be known to him as real and not fiction.

You really don't understand the history of the bible or christianity. Constantine did not become a christian until his death bed. Even then he probably said OK to get the priests off his back. He created catholic church and declared it the official church of his empire because the christian were tearing his empire apart. It was politically expedient, nothing more. It was him that deified jesus. Before that jesus was just a holy man. All the titles he bestowed upon jesus were his own titles: Lord of Lords, Son of God, etc.
 

TeaBiscuit

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You really don't understand the history of the bible or christianity. Constantine did not become a christian until his death bed. Even then he probably said OK to get the priests off his back. He created catholic church and declared it the official church of his empire because the christian were tearing his empire apart. It was politically expedient, nothing more. It was him that deified jesus. Before that jesus was just a holy man. All the titles he bestowed upon jesus were his own titles: Lord of Lords, Son of God, etc.

I don't claim to know the history of the Bible. I doubt if anyone actually knows how the Old Testament came to be written,or it's original authors. Who wrote Genesis and when?

As for Constantine, my point is, the man must have known for sure from Roman history the man was not a total myth.
Your views of Constantine are not mine, and have little to do with my point.

I'm using Constantine as a historic reference, and a person who would know if the man actually existed.
The subject is, Jesus never existed. Constantine is the only reference in history that I can think of, to prove the person lived.
Surely the officials and historic events made claim in the Gospels that Christians refer to, were historicaly known to Constantine. It's a point in time with actual links to the man's life.

I would appreciate greatly, if anyone has any other reference to the man Jesus outside the New Testament
 
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aman12

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Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Joseph Smith are in all likelyhood historical figures. The apocryphal stories about them cannot be verified and are taken on faith by their believers.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Joseph Smith are in all likelyhood historical figures. The apocryphal stories about them cannot be verified and are taken on faith by their believers.

Quite right aman, I totally agree with you. Only I would add Mohammed to the list as well.
 

Goober

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Prove what, Goober? That Jesus never existed? I have already said that logically you cannot prove a negative. Burden of proof is upon those who make a positive assertion (such as Jesus lived).

Can you prove that Santa Claus doesn’t exist (or Easter Bunny doesn’t exist)?

Well – Thread is named Jesus never existed – So this thread does not exist?
You say it is impossible to prove a negative – Why is that? Just because we have never seen an alien life form I believe life does exist on other planets – Can’t prove it of course.

We all have beliefs and many cannot be proven – Isn’t life grand -
 

talloola

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Well – Just because we have never seen an alien life form I believe life does exist on other planets – Can’t prove it of course.

It is very realistic and sensible to think that life exists in many other places
in the universe, ' because we exist', we are real, so why shouldn't there be
others.
Not the same, saying that some gods exist, no one has ever seen any
sort of god, they just believe they exist, not the same.

I suppose it's possible that a man existed, named 'jesus', i wouldn't say he
didn't exist, but the reserection of his dead body is not believable, and I
would have to see that proven to believe it, and I am not convinced because
of some book written by many, and who knows what they felt like writing,
and what they thought they saw, scientific proof of happenings, studied over
a long period of time, then proven, and backed up by many other scientists,
then proven many times over, is one thing, but a lot of goofy religious sayings
and who begat who, etc., means nothing to me.
 
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Goober

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Well – Just because we have never seen an alien life form I believe life does exist on other planets – Can’t prove it of course.

It is very realistic and sensible to think that life exists in many other places
in the universe, ' because we exist', we are real, so why shouldn't there be
others.
Not the same, saying that some gods exist, no one has ever seen any
sort of god, they just believe they exist, not the same.

I suppose it's possible that a man existed, named 'jesus', i wouldn't say he
didn't exist, but the reserection of his dead body is not believable, and I
would have to see that proven to believe it, and I am not convinced because
of some book written by many, and who knows what they felt like writing,
and what they thought they saw, scientific proof of happenings, studied over
a long period of time, then proven, and backed up by many other scientists,
then proven many times over, is one thing, but a lot of goofy religious sayings
and who begat who, etc., means nothing to me.

Talloola

That is fine with me - What I find is that those that are atheists go around with this big chip looking for converts – pun intended – and use everything from so called logic to insults – I have my beliefs as you have yours – And the only way will know if I am correct is much later in time.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Where do Sociopath's and Psychopath's fit into the equation? With respect to a moral code?
I'm not knocking anything here, but am just curious. 8O

That is simple, Ron. I assume psychopaths and sociopaths have their own moral code. It is up to each person to formulate his or her own moral code.

But I assume their moral code permits them to break the laws and commit murder, rape etc. They end up paying for that (or at least I hope they end up paying for that).
 

SirJosephPorter

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Interesting theory...I assume you come to that conclusion because it can't be proved, correct?

I however choose to believe that he was telling the truth.

You got it, alley. No matter how realistically Bible describes the historical events, miracles such as resurrection must be taken on faith. How accurate Bible is or isn’t in other areas is irrelevant when it comes to miracles.
 

eminesh

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We have all heard the stories of the New Testament, and of its main character, Jesus Christ. Most of us, regardless if we believe he was actually the son of a god, have thought of him as an actual, historical figure.


However, if one takes a close look at the evidence, you may find the basis for a historical Jesus is practically non-existent. There are no historical records at all of him, his works, his disciples, etc. You will find the earliest promoters of christianity had no concept of an earthly jesus at all.


This site is a companion forum to the monumental site Welcome to Enlightenment! Religion – the Tragedy of Mankind - Articles by Kenneth Humphreys, which sports an incredible amount of historical information compiled by Kenneth Humphreys. His site is an absolute must read for any thinking person. Both his site and his book* present what I consider an air-tight case for the mythical origins of Jesus, and other "heroic" figures of the bible as well. The mind reels at the implications - thousands of years of unneccessary death, suffering and persecution over interpretation of completely fictional characters.


After you have read and digested the bulk of Welcome to Enlightenment! Religion – the Tragedy of Mankind - Articles by Kenneth Humphreys, you can use this forum to voice your thoughts on this matter.
________________
 

SirJosephPorter

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And on a related matter, people should stop claiming that you can't prove a negative. You can.

Really, Dexter?

Prove that you have not visited Ulan Bator, Mongolia in the past ten years. You can’t.

Prove that Easter Bunny (or the Great Pumpkin) doesn’t exist. You can’t.

I say that on the dark side of the moon (the side that is perpetually hidden from us) there is a house made from gingerbread, with a pool filled with maple syrup in the backyard (all enclosed in a hermetically sealed bubble). Prove that that is not the case. You can’t

Prove that God doesn’t exist. You can’t.

A negative can be proved in only a few isolated instances. E.g. you may be able to prove that you haven’t visited Ulan Bator in the last three or four days, you probably can account for each and every minute of your time for the past three or four days. Or you can prove that two plus two does not make five. But you prove that by proving a positive. You prove that two plus two make four and hence not five.

But trying to prove a negative on its own is a very difficult, often an impossible task. And that is why science says that the proof of burden is on somebody who makes a positive statement. E.g. you could easily prove that you have been to Ulan Bator in the past ten years (assuming you have).
 

talloola

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Talloola

That is fine with me - What I find is that those that are atheists go around with this big chip looking for converts – pun intended – and use everything from so called logic to insults – I have my beliefs as you have yours – And the only way will know if I am correct is much later in time.

I've never looked for a convert, I just have my position, and others have theirs,
not interested in coaxing or using any method to convert anyone.
 

Dexter Sinister

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And on a related matter, people should stop claiming that you can't prove a negative. You can.

Really, Dexter?

Prove that you have not visited Ulan Bator, Mongolia in the past ten years. You can’t.
Yes, really. You can't prove all negatives, but the general claim that you can't prove a negative is false. It's not related to the burden of proof for a proposition being on the claimant.

There's no dark side of the moon either.
 
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