Jesus never existed.

SirJosephPorter

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Cliffy, that is no more absurd, no more incredible than to believe that Jesus is the son of God and he saved all the mankind from eternal damnation. Perhaps even more credible, after all, nobody has killed in the name of Frodo, but people have done plenty of killing in the name of Jesus.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Alley, all that you describe (in post #177) does not constitute evidence. Not when it comes to resurrection of the dead. First you have to prove that resurrection of the dead is possible, only then the evidence you produce can be considered.

Suppose someone wrote a book in 1980 describing your hometown as it was that year. In the book, the author correctly describes: your town’s politicians, its unique laws and penal codes, the local industry, local weather patterns, local slang, the town’s roads and geography, its unusual topography, local houses of worship, area hotels, town statutes and sculptures, the depth of the water in the town harbor, and numerous other unique details about your town that year.

Question: If the author claimed he had visited your town that year—or said he had gotten good information from people who had been there—would you think he was telling the truth? Of course, because he provides details that only an eyewitness could provide. That’s the type of testimony we have throughout much of the New Testament.

Alley, now suppose in that book he claims that he saw a live dinosaur or that he saw a flying monkey. Would you believe that, because he provided details that only an eyewitness could provide?

You wouldn’t, first you would need some proof, that dinosaurs (or flying monkeys) exist today, only then you would consider the evidence provided in the book. It is the same thing with resurrection. First you have to prove that resurrection is possible, only then eyewitnesses etc. have any value.
 

Cliffy

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In order to prove the validity of the bible you first have to assume that it is the word of god. Only then can your reasoning and selective "proof" validate your belief. Anybody who has studied the bible from a skeptical point of view will see that there is no proof to validate it and plenty to invalidate it. But of course, the believer will dismiss all arguments against his belief simply because he chooses to ignore them. The mind must be locked and hermetically sealed to maintain a belief based on fiction.
 

Cliffy

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Cliffy, that is no more absurd, no more incredible than to believe that Jesus is the son of God and he saved all the mankind from eternal damnation. Perhaps even more credible, after all, nobody has killed in the name of Frodo, but people have done plenty of killing in the name of Jesus.

No amount of proof that, if he even existed, that Jesus was anything other than a man would convince someone with "blind faith" to give up their beliefs. Many new converts were drowning in sorrow, self pity, drug addiction when "saved". They were thrown a life preserver and now they refuse to get out of the water and get on with life. They cling to the life preserver as if they let go, they will surely drown.

Sooner or later they will get tired of desperately hanging on to such a bogus story as literal truth and get on with their personal growth... or maybe not. But if one clings to something that desperately, eventually the rotten smell will force them to let go. As a friend once said, "There is life beyond religion." But until they unlock their hermetically sealed minds, they will forever live in fear of the unknown (to them).

Lord of the Rings is just as much a metaphor for life as is the bible. Literally, they are both just fiction.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Lord of the Rings is just as much a metaphor for life as is the bible. Literally, they are both just fiction

Great story, though. I have read the Lord of the Rings trilogy several times and I have also seen all three movies (I understand they are making ‘The Hobbit’, and I look forward to it).
 

YukonJack

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"I believe there was a Jesus but he was nothing more than a scam artist who started a cult to get laid."

Kind of similar to Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, William Jefferson Clinton and Barrack Hussain Obama.

And let us not forget Pierre Elliot Trudeau, although it may not be nice to speak the truth about the dead.
 
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In Between Man

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If he's alive, show me a picture. And I know what the baseball player looks like, so don't show me his picture and tell me its Jesus. lol

I just showed overwhelming evidence that at the very least Luke was telling the truth regarding the natural/physical and social times around him! And you still brush it of COMPLETELY! Is it possible you write it off so quickly because you have presupposing that the whole bible is untrue?
 

L Gilbert

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I just showed overwhelming evidence that at the very least Luke was telling the truth regarding the natural/physical and social times around him! And you still brush it of COMPLETELY! Is it possible you write it off so quickly because you have presupposing that the whole bible is untrue?
There's bound to be some truth in it. Historical facts are historical facts. But the Bible makes it quite unclear as to which is fact and which iosn't. So we have to resort to supporting but unrelated documents. IOW, the Bible itself is untrustworthy as a source of history.
 

In Between Man

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I looked up lots of times. Never saw a author's signature in the starry skies.

He ain't going to spell his name out for you! It would violate your free will to not believe.

People that don't have a Jesus in their religion still have moral standardds. Atheists still have moral standards.
This actually is an argument for God. All humans have a moral code written on their heart, put there by God so that you can recognize evil and injustice.

If we are purely biological, and nature is impersonal, where does the moral standard come from?

Any evidence that starry skies and morals came from Jesus?
Well, the starry skies from the Father, and Jesus was with him at the time...

I suppose all the people that were alive before the Bible claims this Jesus was, had no morals?
Of course they did, what kind of a God would throw us into this world without morals?
 
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In Between Man

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There's bound to be some truth in it. Historical facts are historical facts. But the Bible makes it quite unclear as to which is fact and which iosn't. So we have to resort to supporting but unrelated documents. IOW, the Bible itself is untrustworthy as a source of history.

One amazing thing about the bible is that when you actually sit down and read it with an open mind and heart, it seems completely unfathomable that this "story" is made out of imagination.

The whole book even challenges itself! The old test. being the "First Covenant" where God establishes his law, and promises to break into history. And when fallible man takes God's word, law, and promises and turns into flawed religion, God follows thru with his promise of breaking into history, and he breaks thru in a huge way! Jesus Christ being the "Second Covenant". A perfect, permanent solution to man achieving eternal life in paradise. It completely blows the OT out of the water!

Jesus really did tells us the secrets to the universe. No writer could make this stuff up! Look at this:

be nice and loving to the person who is mean to you

give to EVERY person who asks you

if a man sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well

pray for your enemies,

never hold a grudge, forgive, so that the father may forgive you...

approach your heavenly father just a child approaches his earthly father...


This really was God talking and living with humans, humbled before his creatures, and sacrificing his perfect life so we can reconcile with God...what other way can live up to this?
 

SirJosephPorter

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Well prove that.

Prove what, Goober? That Jesus never existed? I have already said that logically you cannot prove a negative. Burden of proof is upon those who make a positive assertion (such as Jesus lived).

Can you prove that Santa Claus doesn’t exist (or Easter Bunny doesn’t exist)?
 

SirJosephPorter

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I just showed overwhelming evidence that at the very least Luke was telling the truth regarding the natural/physical and social times around him! And you still brush it of COMPLETELY! Is it possible you write it off so quickly because you have presupposing that the whole bible is untrue?

He may be telling the truth about natural, physical etc., I don’t know. But even if he was, that does not mean that he was telling the truth about resurrection.