Time Out
Posts: 1,651 
February 28th, 2007, 10:29 PM
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
World Police
Posts: 4,789 
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
February 28th, 2007, 10:35 PM
You are going to be contronted & questioned about your religious beliefs daily if you plan on making a habit of posting about that sort of thing.
You are going to be contronted & questioned about your religious beliefs daily if you plan on making a habit of posting about that sort of thing.
February 28th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Theres plenty of forums out there that discuss this sort of thing, you might like this one http://www.christianguitar.org/
Theres also plenty of sights which can help you out with debating, like arguments which you shouldn't use. I think Jimmoyer started a thread about that sort of thing, like logical fallacies and the various appeals.
Theres plenty of forums out there that discuss this sort of thing, you might like this one http://www.christianguitar.org/
Theres also plenty of sights which can help you out with debating, like arguments which you shouldn't use. I think Jimmoyer started a thread about that sort of thing, like logical fallacies and the various appeals.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 28th, 2007, 10:43 PM
I am a person of faith, westmanguyfella, If you don't want to talk to one get it out of your list of criteria.
I am a person of faith, westmanguyfella, If you don't want to talk to one get it out of your list of criteria.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
February 28th, 2007, 10:44 PM
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
Quoting westmanguy
They want to swoop in like vultures, their doubting hearts ridiculing, arguing, dissenting and telling you of how evil God and/or the Church is.
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 28th, 2007, 10:51 PM
Quoting sanctus
When your dogmatic institution is dust and long forgotten we'll still be here.
They want to swoop in like vultures, their doubting hearts ridiculing, arguing, dissenting and telling you of how evil God and/or the Church is.
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
Clever Clogs
Posts: 670
February 28th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Exactly right. They've already swooped into this thread. You'd think if it was all silliness to them, they'd ignore Christian posts. But no, the minute one gets posted, you have the very same people rushing in writing pretty much the very same nonsense. For me, I just don't bother with them anymore. I see them as irritating children that constantly tries to get the adults attention.
Quoting sanctus
They want to swoop in like vultures, their doubting hearts ridiculing, arguing, dissenting and telling you of how evil God and/or the Church is.
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
I fell victim, when joining this forum, of entering the devates. Just recently I came to realize it is the same people saying the same things over and over.Facts do not interest them, they are only seeking to ridicule and insult. My besy advice, which I gave to Maple today, was to ignore them. Arguing is weakening of your faith. If they refuse Christ, there is nothing to debate. The only solution is prayer. and when that fails, more prayer
Exactly right. They've already swooped into this thread. You'd think if it was all silliness to them, they'd ignore Christian posts. But no, the minute one gets posted, you have the very same people rushing in writing pretty much the very same nonsense. For me, I just don't bother with them anymore. I see them as irritating children that constantly tries to get the adults attention.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 670
February 28th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Quoting darkbeaver
Oh my, that sure got him! that'll shut the doors of the church down..youre' so wise, so above us.....really...!
When your dogmatic institution is dust and long forgotten we'll still be here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Posts: 6,651
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Location: Newfoundland!
Videos: 5
Location: Newfoundland!
February 28th, 2007, 10:58 PM
debate is a matter of forethought. I often get angry at the things i read on this forum as well. The trick is not to post the things you think when you get like that. try to stick to the point. If people cannot understand or will not listen, let the matter drop, or change the subject to something more likely to give favourable results.
And the number one rule: NEVER expect everyone to agree with you, in fact expect that there will always be those who disagree just for the fun of it, and those who truly believe the opposite of what you do.
debate is a matter of forethought. I often get angry at the things i read on this forum as well. The trick is not to post the things you think when you get like that. try to stick to the point. If people cannot understand or will not listen, let the matter drop, or change the subject to something more likely to give favourable results.
And the number one rule: NEVER expect everyone to agree with you, in fact expect that there will always be those who disagree just for the fun of it, and those who truly believe the opposite of what you do.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 670
February 28th, 2007, 10:59 PM
Quoting westmanguy
Ignore it, as you would a troublesome brat whining for attention. you can't take seriously most of what they write. Clearly most of them are empty inside, and jealous as I think Maple suggested, of Christ, else why would they bother coming onto Christian threads at all?
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
February 28th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I would suggest that if there are discussions you want to have with other religious people, but expect everyone not agreeing with you to keep their noses out of, you should employ a messenger service, and change contact info with those peoples with whom you want to discuss, then go conference somewhere else. Or e-mail eachother. Group e-mails may do the trick.
But to think that you can have an open thread in here and not have people disagree with what you have to say in them is just not reasonalbe as far as I'm concerned. Goodness knows if the atheists wanted to do the same, have a whole thread dedicated to tearing down the case for religion, you'd want to jump in and give your two cents.
Your only other option, is to develop the self control to ignore their posts, and carry on your conversation around them.
I would suggest that if there are discussions you want to have with other religious people, but expect everyone not agreeing with you to keep their noses out of, you should employ a messenger service, and change contact info with those peoples with whom you want to discuss, then go conference somewhere else. Or e-mail eachother. Group e-mails may do the trick.
But to think that you can have an open thread in here and not have people disagree with what you have to say in them is just not reasonalbe as far as I'm concerned. Goodness knows if the atheists wanted to do the same, have a whole thread dedicated to tearing down the case for religion, you'd want to jump in and give your two cents.
Your only other option, is to develop the self control to ignore their posts, and carry on your conversation around them.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 670
February 28th, 2007, 11:05 PM
You're one of the normal ones. But there is a section of some of the people here whose only intention is not debate, but to ridicule and mock. They must feel this scroes them points and makes them feel surprior to everyone who does not agree with their point of view.Westman, my solution is to post around them. In other words, don't reply, just reply to what you perceive as legitimate debate or points. The rest, skip it....As Father Chris wrote, just pray for them.
Quoting hermanntrude
debate is a matter of forethought. I often get angry at the things i read on this forum as well. The trick is not to post the things you think when you get like that. try to stick to the point. If people cannot understand or will not listen, let the matter drop, or change the subject to something more likely to give favourable results.
And the number one rule: NEVER expect everyone to agree with you, in fact expect that there will always be those who disagree just for the fun of it, and those who truly believe the opposite of what you do.
And the number one rule: NEVER expect everyone to agree with you, in fact expect that there will always be those who disagree just for the fun of it, and those who truly believe the opposite of what you do.
You're one of the normal ones. But there is a section of some of the people here whose only intention is not debate, but to ridicule and mock. They must feel this scroes them points and makes them feel surprior to everyone who does not agree with their point of view.Westman, my solution is to post around them. In other words, don't reply, just reply to what you perceive as legitimate debate or points. The rest, skip it....As Father Chris wrote, just pray for them.
House Member
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Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
February 28th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Third point: be sure of your position, have your facts straight, be prepared to support them with citations and links if necessary, and choose your words carefully.
Fourth point, reiterating DurkaDurka: this is a public forum on the Internet, you will be challenged no matter what you say, about anything. There'll always be somebody who won't agree with you no matter how carefully you've marshalled your facts and arguments, and there will always be somebody who'll think you're stupid, or at least ignorant, and will call you names. You have to learn to deal with it if you want to hang around in a place like this.
So, before you push that Submit Reply button, study what you've written, and ask yourself questions like, "Is this really what I mean?" "Is this really what I want to say?" "Can I defend this?" "Have I made the ad hominem mistake?" Sanctus is a good model for what you want to do. He's deeply committed, as you are, he's deeply knowledgeable, and with one understandable exception that I'm aware of (the day his mother died), he always keeps his head.
And check out this site: http://changingminds.org/disciplines...cies_alpha.htm
Quoting westmanguy
That's the first mistake. The key is to understand what's being attacked. There's no reason to take it personally, because it's not you personally being attacked. Well, sometimes it is, but it shouldn't be, that's not a legitimate way to debate. That's a depressingly common logical fallacy called the ad hominem (Latin for "to the man") argument. You can see a nice example of it in the current thread "Gore overusees hydro, critics say..." Critics are attacking Gore's personal lifestyle, which is utterly irrelevant to the truth or falsity of what he's saying about global warming. You can do basically four things with personal attacks: ignore them, point out their irrelevancy to the discussion, mock them, or give them right back. That last option is always a losing proposition, and the third one usually is too. The usual result is a stupid exchange of flames.
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
Quote:
Yeah, I think we've all noticed. Nothing wrong with being passionate and emotional about your beliefs, but in a debate, that's the second mistake. You have to keep your head to make any points in a debate. Anger destroys your credibility, and your rationality. You can't think clearly when you're angry or upset, as you appear to have discovered. I can't think of any other reason why you'd have started that "Apology for racism and behaviour" thread. And big points to you for that, BTW, that can't have been easy for you.
... I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!),
Third point: be sure of your position, have your facts straight, be prepared to support them with citations and links if necessary, and choose your words carefully.
Fourth point, reiterating DurkaDurka: this is a public forum on the Internet, you will be challenged no matter what you say, about anything. There'll always be somebody who won't agree with you no matter how carefully you've marshalled your facts and arguments, and there will always be somebody who'll think you're stupid, or at least ignorant, and will call you names. You have to learn to deal with it if you want to hang around in a place like this.
So, before you push that Submit Reply button, study what you've written, and ask yourself questions like, "Is this really what I mean?" "Is this really what I want to say?" "Can I defend this?" "Have I made the ad hominem mistake?" Sanctus is a good model for what you want to do. He's deeply committed, as you are, he's deeply knowledgeable, and with one understandable exception that I'm aware of (the day his mother died), he always keeps his head.
And check out this site: http://changingminds.org/disciplines...cies_alpha.htm
Clever Clogs
Posts: 670
February 28th, 2007, 11:30 PM
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Or, question why people like you feel the need to insert insults and ridicule for what people believe
That's the first mistake. The key is to understand what's being attacked. There's no reason to take it personally, because it's not you personally being attacked. Well, sometimes it is, but it shouldn't be, that's not a legitimate way to debate. That's a depressingly common logical fallacy called the ad hominem (Latin for "to the man") argument. You can see a nice example of it in the current thread "Gore overusees hydro, critics say..." Critics are attacking Gore's personal lifestyle, which is utterly irrelevant to the truth or falsity of what he's saying about global warming. You can do basically four things with personal attacks: ignore them, point out their irrelevancy to the discussion, mock them, or give them right back. That last option is always a losing proposition, and the third one usually is too. The usual result is a stupid exchange of flames.
Yeah, I think we've all noticed. Nothing wrong with being passionate and emotional about your beliefs, but in a debate, that's the second mistake. You have to keep your head to make any points in a debate. Anger destroys your credibility, and your rationality. You can't think clearly when you're angry or upset, as you appear to have discovered. I can't think of any other reason why you'd have started that "Apology for racism and behaviour" thread. And big points to you for that, BTW, that can't have been easy for you.
Third point: be sure of your position, have your facts straight, be prepared to support them with citations and links if necessary, and choose your words carefully.
Fourth point, reiterating DurkaDurka: this is a public forum on the Internet, you will be challenged no matter what you say, about anything. There'll always be somebody who won't agree with you no matter how carefully you've marshalled your facts and arguments, and there will always be somebody who'll think you're stupid, or at least ignorant. You have to learn to deal with it if you want to hang around in a place like this.
So, before you push that Submit Reply button, study what you've written, and ask yourself questions like, "Is this really what I mean?" "Is this really what I want to say?" "Can I defend this?" "Have I made the ad hominem mistake?" Sanctus is a good model for what you want to do. He's deeply committed, as you are, he's deeply knowledgeable, and with one understandable exception that I'm aware of (the day his mother died), he always keeps his head.
And check out this site: http://changingminds.org/disciplines...cies_alpha.htm
Yeah, I think we've all noticed. Nothing wrong with being passionate and emotional about your beliefs, but in a debate, that's the second mistake. You have to keep your head to make any points in a debate. Anger destroys your credibility, and your rationality. You can't think clearly when you're angry or upset, as you appear to have discovered. I can't think of any other reason why you'd have started that "Apology for racism and behaviour" thread. And big points to you for that, BTW, that can't have been easy for you.
Third point: be sure of your position, have your facts straight, be prepared to support them with citations and links if necessary, and choose your words carefully.
Fourth point, reiterating DurkaDurka: this is a public forum on the Internet, you will be challenged no matter what you say, about anything. There'll always be somebody who won't agree with you no matter how carefully you've marshalled your facts and arguments, and there will always be somebody who'll think you're stupid, or at least ignorant. You have to learn to deal with it if you want to hang around in a place like this.
So, before you push that Submit Reply button, study what you've written, and ask yourself questions like, "Is this really what I mean?" "Is this really what I want to say?" "Can I defend this?" "Have I made the ad hominem mistake?" Sanctus is a good model for what you want to do. He's deeply committed, as you are, he's deeply knowledgeable, and with one understandable exception that I'm aware of (the day his mother died), he always keeps his head.
And check out this site: http://changingminds.org/disciplines...cies_alpha.htm
Sunshine
Posts: 443
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
February 28th, 2007, 11:32 PM
Yes, I know, we all make these mistakes, which is precisely why debates get so heated on this forum.
Quoting marygaspe
One more suggestion for the debate thing. If you can't keep comments like this out of your debate, then give up now. How exactly is the above statement constructive, or even relevant to the question "How do I debate?"
Or, question why people like you feel the need to insert insults and ridicule for what people believe
Yes, I know, we all make these mistakes, which is precisely why debates get so heated on this forum.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 524 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Location: Montreal, Quebec
February 28th, 2007, 11:56 PM
Quoting westmanguy
Toughen up that skin boy! Ignore them. If they weren't seeking Christ, they wouldn't come to these threads at all. Obviously they do so out of a desire to hear the Gospel. But Sanctus is right, you get the same three of four people who have to come on with their false sense of superiority and snide remarks about Jesus or the Church and it is ALWAYS pretty much the same comments over and over. Makes me wonder who they are trying to convince, us or themselves. I suspect the latter.
So, in these religious threads, and in life, I always take it personally when my religion is attacked or insulted, or when I deal with atheists.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
I want to discuss with sanctus, marygaspe, and others, how we should deal with these situations, and do we stray away from certain circumstances.
I am young, and haven't learned the great art of debate to my fullest yet, and with religion I get very passionate + emotional (e.g. angry!), and I want to discuss how us Christians/Catholics/people of faith, should deal with debates and adversity.
Should we stray away from sitations where we see the other side is not of sound quality to debate it?
We should have a shared guideline on how to deal with this.
I am sure we could all benefit with this on debates... knowing there is so many on this issue, on these forums.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 524
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Location: Montreal, Quebec
February 28th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Becuase they are needing to feel above others, so they must ridicule what others believe.
Quoting marygaspe
Or, question why people like you feel the need to insert insults and ridicule for what people believe
Becuase they are needing to feel above others, so they must ridicule what others believe.
House Member
Posts: 3,656
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March 1st, 2007, 12:18 AM
Quoting m_levesque
Wishful thinking, and completely wrong. They come to these threads because they think people like you are wrong and they want to challenge you to justify your position. If there were an Atheist Discussion forum under Spirituality and Philosophy (interesting that there isn't, don't you think?) wouldn't you go into it trying to make your case? Or do you prefer to talk only to people who agree with you?
If they weren't seeking Christ, they wouldn't come to these threads at all. Obviously they do so out of a desire to hear the Gospel.
