Why Catholic isn't Christian.

[Graeme]

Here is an article I wrote for my site www.ourtake.net

This is sure to get some tempers flaring, but I just need to say it.

It all started back when the Romans saw that Christianity was going to be the way to keep power. Suddenly everyone was to be Christian in the empire, those who weren't, were to be converted, while that in it self may not be such a bad thing, the intentions and the method left much to be desired. You see Rome's sole reason for converting the state religion to Christianity was to appease the people, so that they could be more easily controlled, religion via "traditions" became an excellent way of having direct control over people (ie. confessions to a priest). Not all places in the Roman Empire were Christian though, and so they had to be amalgamated in to the religion and the easiest way to do that was to integrate the traditions of those other faiths directly in to Catholicism (ie. praying to saints). Here is a list of things which separate Roman Catholicism from Christianity, and why they are wrong.

1.) Repetitious Prayer: In Roman Catholicism this is generally accompanied with the rosary as a way of ensuring enough prayers have been said. (You know that divine number of prayers required before God or Mary listens.) This was integrated in to Catholicism due to a number of religions in the Empire previously using praying beads and repetitious prayer. Later repetitious prayer was turned in to a form of control where by the sinner would need to confess their sins to a priest so that the priest could tell them how many repetitions to do so that they may be forgiven.

What Christians believe is this: Matthew 6:7,8 “When ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him”

2.) Prayer to Mary or other saints/angels: Another large difference between Catholicism and Christianity is the allowance prayer to people or things other than Jesus and God. The obvious and major infraction in Catholicism is prayer to Mary the mother of Jesus. You see while Mary was blessed among women, she was still a human being and was never given special power beyond that of any other human, nor does or did she have special influence over Jesus, although that is why Catholics pray to her. You see many Catholics take Mary asking Jesus to turn water in to wine and him doing so as an indication that Jesus is more likely to do what Mary asks him. The truth of the matter is that Jesus replied to his mother in this way “who are you woman to ask this of me”. Jesus was not a happy camper when Mommy asked for a favour. The reason prayer to multiple spirits or gods was integrated in to Catholicism was again due to the past traditions of conquered people who would pray to different spirits “in charge” of different things. That was converted in to the many “patron saint of [insert cause here]”. Catholics believe that asking a dead person to pray for you is no different than asking a live person to pray for you, except that you must pray to the dead person for them to pray for you.

What Christians believe is this: 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” This makes it pretty obvious that you aren’t supposed to pray to anyone other than God and Jesus. (Read from 2:1 on for full context.). While the bible does mention in a few places having other LIVING people pray for you it NEVER mentions asking a dead person to pray for you. As that would be prayer to the dead person and if it worked it would mean they have power over God, and that just isn’t the case, and that INCLUDES MARY!

3.) Probably the most important difference is Salvation: In Roman Catholicism there are many ways to “better your chances” to go to heaven, including repentance of mortal sins, purgatory, or wearing a scapula when you die. Many of these “stairways” to heaven that you must climb in the Catholic religion were and still are used as ways to control Catholics by requiring them to go to the church or priests to ensure salvation, also so that they must do what the church says there is an over tone of never being able to be sure that you are saved and are going to heaven. Catholicism also maintains that you must be a “good” person to get to heaven (of course the definition of “good” is left to the church as another form of control.

What Christians believe is this: Matthew 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” And Christians also believe this: Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” And Christians believe this: Matthew 4:16 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” In other words being good isn’t going to get you to heaven because you are still a sinner, but so long as you repent and believe that God sacrificed Jesus for our sins so that we can go to heaven, than guess what – Christians believe you go to heaven. This allows for virtually no control of the church over people because it takes a very simple belief to become saved and go to heaven. Oh and you can’t loose your salvation as stated here: Matthew 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” If you have eternal life once saved you can’t then become unsaved due to the fact that you would not previously have had eternal life. I know it’s confusing but it is logical.

There are many other differences between Catholicism and Christianity, like calling no man father in the context of faith because our true father is God in heaven. I am sure I could go on and on about the horrid way Catholicism warps Christianity, but really only one more point need be made. Christianity is not about the traditions of man, nor does it allow change to the word of God (the Bible) as stated here: Mark 7:9 “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” And near the very end of the book: “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, may God add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

 

[EastSideScotian]

Thats Interesting......Catholism, is more of a cult in my view.....Christainity, I think is more of a Spirtual thing and a connection with God. Churches seem to usally have a poor impact on most poeple who would liek to beleave in God, But not just Catholic churches most protosent chruches too...I dont attend church at all ... unless dragged to one. I am happy being me and not having somoene tell me how i should be for God to let me into heaven, Besides, it his Job to Judge me, if I can live my life in a decent fashion and enjoy myself, hopefully God will see that I have more Pros than Cons

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I don't find it interesting at all, it's the typical nitpicking illogical nonsense we get from extremists. The Bible is a sufficiently large and complex document that you can find support in it for pretty much any position you'd care to take. You can, for example, find support in it for slavery, oppression of women, killing people who disagree with you, and a whole lot of similarly unsavoury stuff. It isn't even close to being internally consistent, and its supposed authority is entirely self-referential: the Bible is the word of god because it says so in the Bible.

There are something over 600 prescriptions for correct behaviour in Leviticus and Deuteronomy alone, many of which are currently illegal and/or immoral. Deuteronomy, for instance, in 13:12-15 directs us to destroy everyone and burn down everything in any city where another god is worshipped. We are also told in Deuteronomy 17:2-7 to kill everyone with religious beliefs different from our own. I hope you never have a "stubborn and rebellious son;" Deuteronomy 21:18-21 directs all the men of the city to assemble and stone the boy to death. Would you suggest we stone adulterers to death, murder our neighbours if they work on the Sabbath or even do something as mundane as wearing clothes made of two different kinds of fabric, kill the leaders of other faiths and burn down their churches? The Bible directs us to do all those things, and more. The point, of course, is that nobody follows all the biblical prescriptions for correct behaviour, we pick and choose what is suitable under current social conditions and ignore the rest, which means the Bible is not the authority. Your case rests on the argument from authority, which is logically illegitimate to start with, and it's incomplete--another fallacy called selection bias--because it ignores so many of the Bible's prescriptions for correct behaviour simply because they don't happen to suit the case you're trying to make.

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong, that your understanding of Christianity is shallow and incomplete? Check it out and follow the references to chapter and verse given here:

Oppression of women: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

Injustice: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html

Absurdities: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm

Violence and cruelty: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

There's plenty more too.

 

[thecdn]

One of the greatest joys I get as an atheist is going over to christianforums and watching the various flavours of christians beat the shit out of each other. It is really a wonderful sight watching all the good christians argue about who is 'wrong' and why.

I had a former boss who was the definition of class and gentleman. Everyone he met thought he was the nicest guy ever. The only mean things I ever heard him say about anyone were because of his religion. He put down gays, well, because they're gay, and Mormons, because they weren't 'real christians.'

 

[Jersay]

I have to agree with Dexter on this.

 

[Jay]

I would have thought that Dexter would have figured out by now Christians aren't bound by the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

The 10 commandments are the Old Testament laws that still apply.

 

[Graeme]

I don't find it interesting at all, it's the typical nitpicking illogical nonsense we get from extremists. The Bible is a sufficiently large and complex document that you can find support in it for pretty much any position you'd care to take. You can, for example, find support in it for slavery, oppression of women, killing people who disagree with you, and a whole lot of similarly unsavoury stuff. It isn't even close to being internally consistent, and its supposed authority is entirely self-referential: the Bible is the word of god because it says so in the Bible.

There are something over 600 prescriptions for correct behaviour in Leviticus and Deuteronomy alone, many of which are currently illegal and/or immoral. Deuteronomy, for instance, in 13:12-15 directs us to destroy everyone and burn down everything in any city where another god is worshipped. We are also told in Deuteronomy 17:2-7 to kill everyone with religious beliefs different from our own. I hope you never have a "stubborn and rebellious son;" Deuteronomy 21:18-21 directs all the men of the city to assemble and stone the boy to death. Would you suggest we stone adulterers to death, murder our neighbours if they work on the Sabbath or even do something as mundane as wearing clothes made of two different kinds of fabric, kill the leaders of other faiths and burn down their churches? The Bible directs us to do all those things, and more. The point, of course, is that nobody follows all the biblical prescriptions for correct behaviour, we pick and choose what is suitable under current social conditions and ignore the rest, which means the Bible is not the authority. Your case rests on the argument from authority, which is logically illegitimate to start with, and it's incomplete--another fallacy called selection bias--because it ignores so many of the Bible's prescriptions for correct behaviour simply because they don't happen to suit the case you're trying to make.

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong, that your understanding of Christianity is shallow and incomplete? Check it out and follow the references to chapter and verse given here:

Although most of this isn't really on topic:

You, like most non-Christians don't under stand the separation between the old and the new testament. To sum it up for you the Old testament is about Justice, where as the new Testament is about forgiveness. ALL and I do mean ALL "contradictions" are based on something said in the old versus new testament, without the understanding that one is Justice and the other is Forgiveness. For instance, old testament: eye for an eye, new testament: turn the other cheek.

I think you need to look-up the word illogical, because nothing I said given the axioms is illogical. Oh and I am hardly an extremist.

You are correct in saying that in the Bible there is support for slavery, although there are also laws that slaves must be treated properly. In the new testament it says to treat a slave as if he is your brother.

Killing people you disagree with isn't in there, but killing for various more specific reasons is.

No where does it support oppression of women, again I think you need to look that word up in the dictionary.

Slightly more on topic now:

I have read the whole Bible and can quite confidently say that the quotes from the bible I gave above are never contradicted, although I am sure you didn't read them anyway. The beliefs of Catholicism on the other hand DO contradict what is written in the Bible (as stated in the first post).

No you can't find support for pretty much anything, including the Catholic traditions stated in the first post.

Is it not possible, Graeme, that you may be wrong, that your understanding of Christianity is shallow and incomplete?

No, it really isn't, I have very thoroughly read through the Bible I know what is there and what isn't.

You may be interested to know that I do not take the fully literal approach to the bible that some Christians do. That does not change the things stated in the first post as they are pretty straight forward and do not depend on a greater understanding than what was available at the time, but it means I can be unsure of things like a young 6000 year old earth.

 

[Jay]

I must say though, Graeme, that I sort of agree with you. Although I do think Catholics are Christians ( not believing Protestants are Christians is something we accuse them of ) but I agree there are some quirks about them I find to be strange.

But as jimmoyer (another member here) has pointed out, Catholics have contributed greatly to the intelligentsia of the Christian faith.

 

[Graeme]

Small misunderstanding there, I didn't say that Catholics aren't christians, because I think many of them are. Although many of them aren't, but there are many protostants I wouldn't consider christian.

What I mean to say is that Catholicism isn't Christian. Mainly due to the 3rd point.

 

[Graeme]

Really if you believe in what the Bible says like those three points, you aren't Catholic.

 

[Jay]

I'm not Catholic, that's for sure.

 

[Finder]

He brings up some good historic points of the early Christian Church of Rome and the tactics it used to do mass converstions, which include older pagan, traditions, rituals, rites and even gods at times.

Is it wrong, I don't think so. I don't think for the normal average person religion isn't about following ever word of the bible to the direct reading/translation. Hell even the bible we know today isn't pure and true to the "word" of god as it was largely writen after the fact.

by in large I agree with most of what Dexter Sinister, has already stated.

 

[Toro]

RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

I'm not Catholic, and I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but to say that Catholics aren't Christian is just silly.

 

[Graeme]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.

I'm not Catholic, and I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but to say that Catholics aren't Christian is just silly.

Small misunderstanding there, I didn't say that Catholics aren't christians, because I think many of them are. Although many of them aren't, but there are many protostants I wouldn't consider christian.

What I mean to say is that Catholicism isn't Christian. Mainly due to the 3rd point.

Really if you believe in what the Bible says like those three points, you aren't Catholic.

 

[Finder]

Graeme, Sorry to disappoint you, but even Luther and John Calvin wern't as fanatic as you with their anti-Catholic attacks. Luther only wished to reform the church and not splite it like he ended up doing.

Who are you to say someone is Christian or not?

 

[Graeme]

I am not to Judge who is saved and who isn't. but I am to judge who is Christian based on the bible, and I have an obligation to point out to those who are so close to true Christianity how to become truley saved, but again no, not to judge whether they are or not saved.

Of course the ideal situation would be to change the church, than you can help everyone under that umbrella, the problem is the church is not easily changed due to it's quest for power.

especially when it comes to simple salvation. (point 3) which leaves no control for the church.

 

[Finder]

So where in the bible does it appoint you as the judge to determine who is and is not Christian?

 

[Graeme]

well my initials are GOB, and that comes before GOD. So really I have the authority right there.



give me a minute I'll look it up.

Btw I am not specifically judging any praticular "catholics" christianity. I am simply saying that Catholisism is not Christian because it does not follow the doctrine of the bible

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Why Catholic isn't Ch

hahahahhahahahahahahburp/fart/cough/hahahahahahChristians aren't human.

 

[thecdn]

Re: RE: Why Catholic isn't Christian.

I am not to Judge who is saved and who isn't. but I am to judge who is Christian based on the bible, and I have an obligation to point out to those who are so close to true Christianity how to become truley saved, but again no, not to judge whether they are or not saved.

This is getting as good as the fights over at christianforums. You'd have fun over there Graeme, lots of catholics to tell how wrong they are while you are right.

Grabs popcorn........