Canada’s cost in Afghanistan!

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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Dead soldiers in body bags are coming back home more frequent then originally thought!

Retired soldiers end up with mental trauma, loss of arms, or legs, or on a wheal chair, and a minisqual pention to help them pick up the pices, when they come back home!

Canada has a soldier reproduction problem; more soldiers are retiring than soldiers being recruited, which make the deployment of troops to fight stupid wars very costly and unjustified. To use up men and women as if they are disregard-able items is sad, it is clear that the intellect Harper is embracing is similar to his mentor Bush who is at an all time low in the polls of some 30%.
Two additional years in Afghanistan will destroy our Canadian soldier’s families in order to help Bush with a stupidly justified war. Afghanistan will be one of Harpers black eyes during his short term as PM.
 

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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Lineman said:
I don't think our soldiers have any problems reproducing. :roll:

Lineman a country like Canada, who doesn’t have a mandatory draft, will indeed have a problem with maintaining sufficient enough military men power. Canada has a problem in the reproduction of its military more men and women are about to retire than thousands waiting to come on board. Canada can not afford to waist these young life’s as young as 18, 19, for the next three years. Some of these young people so called soldiers and rightly so, do not have a clue what it will be like first of landing in a zone of death like they did in Desert Storm, Iraq, and now Afghanistan and maybe Iran next. When is it going to stop, the deceit, the corporate greed, the obsession to take something from some one by force. It is a disgrace it is below a snake’s belly.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
Socrates, the history of the world is mired in conflic and blood, and if you believe the few deaths we have had in afghanistan will weaken the heart and soul of the Canadian soldurers and their families you do not know the history of the world very well and you know less about the history of Canada. Perhaps this was is not the best war to be involved in but it is still a war which every party supports in one fashion or another, a war where humanitarism is apart of the mission as much as finding terrorist cells. Look I'm a lefty, I'm a democratic socialist, F*ck call me a tree hugger if you want, but Afghanistan needs our help and I think it's apart of Canada's job as a economic power to help out as much as we can.

If we lose a dozen, a hundred, or even a thousand solduers which I highly doubt will happen it will be alot less then the last wars we were in and for a cause just as noble.
 

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
4,968
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Finder said:
Socrates, the history of the world is mired in conflic and blood, and if you believe the few deaths we have had in afghanistan will weaken the heart and soul of the Canadian soldurers and their families you do not know the history of the world very well and you know less about the history of Canada. Perhaps this was is not the best war to be involved in but it is still a war which every party supports in one fashion or another, a war where humanitarism is apart of the mission as much as finding terrorist cells. Look I'm a lefty, I'm a democratic socialist, F*ck call me a tree hugger if you want, but Afghanistan needs our help and I think it's apart of Canada's job as a economic power to help out as much as we can.

If we lose a dozen, a hundred, or even a thousand solduers which I highly doubt will happen it will be alot less then the last wars we were in and for a cause just as noble.


Hey Finder although it is a noble act to help people in need, the question here is, at what price. I don’t want Harper to tell me he will send my son to Iran and that will be OK. Harper has his priorities all screwed up, and looking at Bush’s rating of approval at 30% it isn’t much to brag about, and may be the reason why the ratings tell a story is because the voters in the US have lost many sons and daughters during W Bush’s term in office. Bush faces a Brian Mulroney exit, the most unpopular President in resent history, although Mulroney was a Prime Minister.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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So now that you dodged what I said by bringing both Bush and Iraq into the question, why is Afghanistan, the main statement of you first post and mine, so wrong to be in? The Cost to Afghanistan is so low for us to be there, yet so very high if we leave. Not only to ourselves with the possibility of more war lords taking over and the Taliban as it is hard enough controling both of them with us there, but with the increasing opening of Terorist camps and drug grow ops which directly effect us. Now if this is counting human life we are saving the populace from another Taliban government, of course, unless you support radical conservative Islamism Socrates? If that is the case perhaps we can agree to disagree because, if there is one thing in this world which is to the opisite of what I think is right it is the past regeme in Afghanistan.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Edmonton
And we're off:

1.

Dead soldiers in body bags are coming back home more frequent then originally thought!

You call this frequent? 15 soldiers since 2001? I'm sorry my friend, but that isn't frequent by any stretch of the imagination. The U.S. loses anywhere from 4-10 soldiers KIA in Iraq A DAY. Furthermore our death count is highly misleading. Yes 15 soldiers have been killed, but how many by direct contact with the enemy? 8:

2 by an IED
1 by suicide bomber
4 by IED
1 by gunshot wound

The other 7 have been killed by accidents:

4 by a U.S. F-16
3 by vehicle accidents

The 7 killed in Afghanistan by non-hostile circumstances could have easily been killed whilst training in Canada. The CF loses dozens of soldiers killed or wounded each year in training exercises. We've had guys run over and killed by tanks, blow up by grenades, shot by machine guns, guys who've fell while rappeling, guys who've drowned while parachuting in to a lake. I'm not trying to say that the deaths of the lads killed non-hostily are all less significant than the boys who were, however I am saying that their deaths should not be a benchmark as to how the mission is going. Their deaths were accidents that could have happened anywhere.

Now back to the "body count", 15 is not a lot since 2001. This nation has sufferd worse casualties in shorter time spans. Some notables:

The Battle of Paardeberg South Africa: 31 Canadians Killed

The Battle of the Somme: 1,373 Canadians killed in 13 days

The Battle of Vimy Ridge : 3,598 Canadians killed

The Dieppe Raid: 907 Canadians killed in 11 hours

Battle of Ortona: 2000+ Canadians killed

D-Day Landing (and breakout): 1,017 Canadians killed in 6 days

Battle of the Schedlt: 6,367 Canadians killed in 31 days

The Battle of Kapyong: 10 Canadians killed in 24 hours

The Battle of Ledra Palace (Cyprus): 28 Canadians killed

The Former Yugoslavia: 23 Canadians killed by direct contact with the enemy

The above is just a smattering of the casualties this nation has suffered since the turn of the 20th Century. As you can see, 15 is but a drop in the bucket when compared to some of these figures.

Retired soldiers end up with mental trauma, loss of arms, or legs, or on a wheal chair, and a minisqual pention to help them pick up the pices, when they come back home!

It's one thing to spout crap about our casualties. It's other to demean the way we treat our boys when they come home. Every soldier that has come home wounded, right from Sgt. Lorne Forde up to MCpl Paul Franklin, have been treated well, very well. You make it sound like they're alone, when they're not, not by a long shot. When a soldier is wounded and moved to Landsthul Germany, we fly their families to them, lodge them, provided them an escort. We the wounded are ready to return to Canada we then fly them all together. Back in Canada while they're in hospital we pay for the parking fees for the family so they can go visit, we hand the family buckets of money so purchases can be made to make the lives of the wounded easier. When they're finally discharged, if their houses need modification, we do it. Their pensions, you know nothing. A soldier wounded overseas, regardless of rank, will never have to work again. Even the lowest private, if he's wounded and cannot do his job, the pension he receives is almost triple his yearly salary, the dollar figure climbs as a soldier climbs in rank. As for them coming home wounded, it's part of the job, and we accept that. Don't try and drum up pitty for us, we don't need it. Look at MCpl Paul Franklin, the man is so positive. Even asked point blank if he was angry he was wounded, he said no. He had a job to do, and he did it. He was unlucky. Our lads are treated like gold when they're hurt, we go to great lengths to make their lives easier, and they're not abandon by any stretch of the imagination. Do you think the Americans care like we do about their multitudes of wounded? I highly doubt it.

Canada has a soldier reproduction problem; more soldiers are retiring than soldiers being recruited, which make the deployment of troops to fight stupid wars very costly and unjustified.

We don't have a reproduction problem...at all. In fact the numbers in the CF have risen by over 5,000 since last spring. So you're out to lunch on that and I don't need to say more.

To use up men and women as if they are disregard-able items is sad

That's a soldiers job. If you don't like it, don't join the Army. Enough said?

Two additional years in Afghanistan will destroy our Canadian soldier’s families in order to help Bush with a stupidly justified war. Afghanistan will be one of Harpers black eyes during his short term as PM.

So what about police officers? Like the one killed in Windsor recently? Don't you think his family is destroyed? Should we remove all police officers from the streets of Windsor to prevent any more from being killed? Moronic no?

As for Harper, how did Afghanistan become his War? We entered it back in 2001, well before he was Prime Minister. Do me a favour, and answer this Socrates, how does the War fall soley on Harper, having not been in power for even 10% of it? Why can't some people see past their dislike for Conservatism and inhabit reality?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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That's a soldiers job. If you don't like it, don't join the Army. Enough said?

Some probably view the army as a government "social program" more than anything else.
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
38
Socrates the Greek said:
Dead soldiers in body bags are coming back home more frequent then originally thought!

Retired soldiers end up with mental trauma, loss of arms, or legs, or on a wheal chair, and a minisqual pention to help them pick up the pices, when they come back home!

Canada has a soldier reproduction problem; more soldiers are retiring than soldiers being recruited, which make the deployment of troops to fight stupid wars very costly and unjustified. To use up men and women as if they are disregard-able items is sad, it is clear that the intellect Harper is embracing is similar to his mentor Bush who is at an all time low in the polls of some 30%.
Two additional years in Afghanistan will destroy our Canadian soldier’s families in order to help Bush with a stupidly justified war. Afghanistan will be one of Harpers black eyes during his short term as PM.
It's close minded people like you who will hurt the moral of Canadian Soldiers and their families back home with you're attitude. You don't think people like you with you're Anti-Afghanistan Mission statements don't have an impact on the Soldiers serving and their families? They need support not a bunch of Bloody Belly Aching..
 

annabattler

Electoral Member
Jun 3, 2005
264
2
18
It seems to me that the insurgents in Afghanistan have a much easier "recruitment" policy than we do with our armed forces. The taliban and their ilk have millions of disatisfied young men to draw from...young men,with a religious fervor, and quite willing to give their lives for their "cause".Afghani borders are very porous,as they are in Iraq,as Bush has discovered.
For us to pretend that our presence there can begin to undo the centuries of conflict,invasion and corruption is to be naive.
 

Em

New Member
May 17, 2006
14
0
1
Edmonton Area
Undo, probably not. Help deal with it, probably yes. Remember that with 38 million people, Afghanistan is not a small country in terms of population. You have to remember too that our military presence is helping keep the 37,99x,xxx people safer from the however many fringe terrorists and "bad people" there are. Yes, they have structure issues with government with warlords and corruption, but it is the Canadian (and other allies) presence that helps boost quality of living. The soldiers believe they are doing the right thing, that they are making a difference. Who are we, thousands of KM away, to judge whether it is working or not? All we see is what the media presents to us. Perhaps some of us should write to the soldiers (and civilian personnel) and ask them what they think ... they are THERE after all. They can SEE what is happening and whether what they are doing is worth doing. Perhaps we should ask the soldiers if they know they are personally at risk ... that they could be killed. Maybe we should ask if they think what they are doing is worth the risk.

What do you think?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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I think we have a few sitting here as members. What are they told? "just becasue you went there doesn't mean you know shit".
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
38
Re: RE: Canada’s cost in Afghanistan!

Em said:
Undo, probably not. Help deal with it, probably yes. Remember that with 38 million people, Afghanistan is not a small country in terms of population. You have to remember too that our military presence is helping keep the 37,99x,xxx people safer from the however many fringe terrorists and "bad people" there are. Yes, they have structure issues with government with warlords and corruption, but it is the Canadian (and other allies) presence that helps boost quality of living. The soldiers believe they are doing the right thing, that they are making a difference. Who are we, thousands of KM away, to judge whether it is working or not? All we see is what the media presents to us. Perhaps some of us should write to the soldiers (and civilian personnel) and ask them what they think ... they are THERE after all. They can SEE what is happening and whether what they are doing is worth doing. Perhaps we should ask the soldiers if they know they are personally at risk ... that they could be killed. Maybe we should ask if they think what they are doing is worth the risk.

What do you think?
Canada is helping the Afghanis rebuild their lives after almost 30 years of War. Children are no longer future recruits for the Taliban or having to join the Nothern Alliance to fight the Taliban. I haven't asked Soldiers in person one on one if we are making a difference but I have seen Afghanis on the news who say they need Canadians to remain. Most of all I haven't seen Video of women being executed in the Soccer Stadium anymore as what the Taliban was doing before they were driven from power. That alone is all the proof I need Canada is doing the right thing in Afghanistan regardless of what the Anti-Canadian Mission Belly Achers say..
 

annabattler

Electoral Member
Jun 3, 2005
264
2
18
Afghanistan borders on 6 neighbouring countries....again,porous borders. It has limited natural fresh water(some irrigation),inadequate supplies of potable water,suffers from soil overgrazing and degradation, deforestation and desertification.
Only 12% is arable land, and most of that is used for poppy production(poppies,it seems,don't mind a lack of water and poorer soil).
There are 7 major ethnic groups(forced to live within the same borders by the Brits way back when they established the borders),living in 34 provinces.
It's not like we're sending in farming experts,forestry experts...we're sending in troops to try to "train" Afghani police/troops, and to try to repel Taliban insurgents(and their supporters).
The entire country is not "on side" for foreign troop assistance....nor are all Canadians "on side" for the presence of our troops there.
 

Em

New Member
May 17, 2006
14
0
1
Edmonton Area
Re: RE: Canada’s cost in Afghanistan!

annabattler said:
It's not like we're sending in farming experts,forestry experts...we're sending in troops to try to "train" Afghani police/troops, and to try to repel Taliban insurgents(and their supporters).

You are right, we haven't been sending very many non-combattant military personnel over there, although there are certainly a few who are building hospitals and schools. But with the amount of terrorist activity going on in SPECIFIC regions, it's not particularly safe for forestry experts to to traipsing about the contryside. So our military (and our allies) are working to make it safe so that the forestry experts CAN go over and help the place. That's the point.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
It seems to me that the insurgents in Afghanistan have a much easier "recruitment" policy than we do with our armed forces. The taliban and their ilk have millions of disatisfied young men to draw from...young men,with a religious fervor, and quite willing to give their lives for their "cause".Afghani borders are very porous,as they are in Iraq,as Bush has discovered.
For us to pretend that our presence there can begin to undo the centuries of conflict,invasion and corruption is to be naive.

Actually we've done a lot to mend Afghanistan in the time we've been there, especially in the North. In Kabul and the surrounding area, the place is unlike anything it was before. Women can drive, children go to school, people are happy and aren't forced to live in fear. I noticed a big change from when I first arrived in Kabul to when I departed 7 and a bit months later. My Dad is currently on this third (3rd) tour in Afghanistan (having served in both the North and the South) and even he says Kabul is excellent now compared to when he was there a few years ago. I have a friend that is currently with the PRT in Kandahar, and he told me in an email recently that things have improved vastly in the North since him and I were there last year. The nation is being mended, and we're helping them as best we can. The ANA and ANP are amazingly dedicated to their nation. I worked briefly with ANA soldiers near the end of my tour and I was very impressed. I had mixed feelings going in to working with them, but by the end they had my respect. Every one I spoke with (some even spoke excellent English to my surprise) joined the Army for two reasons; 1. steady pay 2. their love of Afghanistan. These people saw the chance to kill two birds with one stone, they could feed their families, and stop the horror of the Taliban from ever returning to their lives. When I think of Afghanistan, I always will remember this young Private I talked with on several occasions. He was 17 or 18, didn't even need to shave yet, and he'd always tell me about his life before 2001. When he was young, perhaps 10, he watched armed militants break in to his house and execute his father in the street. The reason? His father was teaching is younger sister to read. Do you have any idea what it's like to sit there and listen to this young man tell you that? It's heart breaking, but it helps me realize the resolve of the average Afghan. Say what you want, but our presence is helping a lot. The average joe has been able to stand up and denounce the tyrants who ruled over them. That is just one of the many reasons I support our mission to Afghanistan, and I support the Afghan people.


I think we have a few sitting here as members. What are they told? "just becasue you went there doesn't mean you know shit".

I don't think that's totally the case Jay. I punched my time card in Afghanistan, and I know what the situation is over there. I have several close friends currently in Kandahar, and my father is over there. I'm constantly in the loop with regard to how things are going. Yes I make that a point when I post on this issue, and yes there are members of these forums who think their "opinions" should have more validity than mine, especially when mine are based on events that happened to me or my section overseas. I can live with that, however on the flip side there are several members of these forums who've communicated to me that they respect my opinion. Since being here I have received several PMs and/or emails from members saying they respect what i've done and respect what our military is doing. Do I need that to go on? To be confident in what I post? No, but it is a nice thing to get, even more so when the Americans on these boards send me messages of encouragement. Believe me, several of the things posted here about our troops overseas have been cut and pasted by myself in to emails I send to the boys currently over there. Text from ITN, Wednesday, Five, Lineman, Sassy, yo yourself Jay, and several others have been read by members of the PRT and Mulitnational Brigade, and they're thankful for the encouragement they've received. I've even posted some of the more...jerkish opinions of members of these forums, just to put the World in perspective. It keeps the dialogue going, and believe it or not, motivates them to get the word out that the boys overseas are doing everything they can to help Afghanistan. In short; sure my opinion isn't always respected, but who's ever really is?

It's not like we're sending in farming experts,forestry experts...we're sending in troops to try to "train" Afghani police/troops, and to try to repel Taliban insurgents(and their supporters).
The entire country is not "on side" for foreign troop assistance....nor are all Canadians "on side" for the presence of our troops there.

You can't start to mend the nation if there are people present who'll stop you from doing it. These people set fire to buildings built with international aid money. They won't even let their own people live a better life. Until we stop that from happening, we can't have dozens of civilians wandering around the nation. That's a liability. As for the nation not being 100% on our side, very true, but that's changing as we spread to other Provinces. Kandahar hated us when we arrived, and slowly they're beginning to see that we're there to help, not oppress them like they've been told. It all takes time.
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
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Re: DU cost in Afghanistan - bad sperm

Lineman said:
I don't think our soldiers have any problems reproducing. :roll:

Actually, YES - our soldiers DO have problems reproducing, in a physical sense.

DU ammo is usually the culprit for bad sperm in soldiers, but also there are many toxic chemicals used in basic military operations that can have the effect of sterility.

LINKS:

Health Canada report on DU and Gulf War symptoms in our soldiers:
http://tinyurl.com/ko7zy

Soldiers line up to bank sperm:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,892104,00.html

"This astounding number of disabled vets means that a decade later, 56 percent of those soldiers who served now have medical problems."
\\

DU coverup by media, other reports on DU:
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/4.html
 

Em

New Member
May 17, 2006
14
0
1
Edmonton Area
Incedentally, I work in an environment with far greater exposure to toxic and potentially dangerous chemicals, although admittedly no depleted uranium. Perhaps I should bank my sperm too ;) ... mind you, I have 2 kids already :D

On the other hand, the argument regarding Depleted Uranium doesn't drive me to say "get our boys outa there" (I know you weren't really saying that) ... it does make me say, "perhaps we should think about this problem". For example, the used Uranium fuel from Candu reactors is generally safer than that from other forms (because Candu reactors don't require enriched Uranium), so perhaps we shouldn't use the more dangerous forms for bullets and tank armour? All that said, I am by no means an authority on Depleted Uranium nor on military armaments .... perhaps I don't know what I am talking about 8).

And MOGZ: I like reading your posts. You can count me among those who respect and agree with what you have to say. Not blindly, mind you ... I like to keep educated on these matters, but it's fantastic to have the opinions of those who have been there, instead of relying on TV and other media (which I don't trust as far as I can throw it, especially the excessively Liberal CBC). Impartiality my a$$.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
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Canada
RE: Canada’s cost in Afgh

So is it 4 billion dollars? Did I hear correctly that it has cost Canada 4 billion dollars to date for our involvement in Afghanistan?

I wonder what actual good we could do in the world let alone at home with 4 billion dollars. Are we really getting worth for our dollars? We seem quite selective with our “marching for freedom” while a genocide in Africa takes place. Not to mention children starving in the poor countries. Are we really getting worth for our dollars?