Zimbabwe...no end to the power struggle!

[dancing-loon]

If putting a military governor in charge of a country and then taking the resources you want out at less than their fair value isn't colonialism, what is it you think Colonialism is?

Sorry, I missed answering you for some time... I got lost in the hallways!!;-)

We were talking about China being a colonial power in some African country, right? I said there is no such thing, but you keep insisting there is, and try to use the above example as some sort of proof.
Please, provide me with a source.

I have checked via google and still find no reference to Chinese colonialism in Africa, just business like many other countries conduct there as well.

 

[Zzarchov]

Go read up on Darfur, hell, Even Zimbabwe until South African dock workers got involved

They go to a dictator in power, give him guns and money to stay in power, put government personel in place, then leave with resources they need.

Such as Oil from Darfur.

It does provide Aid to Africa mind you, at a cost.

That being you have to cut ties with Taiwan (which isn't that bad), oh, and vote as they do in the UN regardless of if you agree or not (which is colonialism)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/28/news/sudan.php

For a counterpoint the view is the Chinese money brings "real benefit" building infrastructure, roads, hospitals to Africa

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-09/27/content_697792.htm

The only problem is that that is what European governments did as well. If we look at former colonies that didn't tear themselves to pieces (like India) we see lots of Colonial infrastructure still in place to this day, benefiting the local populace. So thats not a good defense against colonialism.

In the case for colonialism , we can look at Mugabe.

In exchange for ammunition, banned military equipment and political fundraising money (even up to providing the T-shirts for his campaigns), China has received lucrative energy and resource deals..from a country with 2.2 million % inflation, thats nearing how bad Germany had after WWI when money was worth more as fuel than currency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-article-the-new-colonial-masters-811805.html


So China puts him in power, supports a military, and gets all the resources it needs from the country while the country starves.

How is that NOT colonialism?

 

[dancing-loon]

Go read up on Darfur, hell, Even Zimbabwe until South African dock workers got involved

They go to a dictator in power, give him guns and money to stay in power, put government personel in place, then leave with resources they need.

Such as Oil from Darfur.

It does provide Aid to Africa mind you, at a cost.

That being you have to cut ties with Taiwan (which isn't that bad), oh, and vote as they do in the UN regardless if you agree or not (which is colonialism)

Wrong! Hell, can't you read?;-)

In South Africa, where trade unions have complained that Chinese textile imports have been devastating domestic industry, President Thabo Mbeki pointedly told a student audience last month that Africa needed to guard against allowing relations with China to develop into a "colonial relationship."

That is taken from your first link, http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/28/news/sudan.php, and does not state a fact, yet. As you know, Mbeki is good friends with Mugabe. Both do business with China which they could stop, if they worried about becoming a colony of China. That hasn't happened yet.

For a counterpoint the view is the Chinese money brings "real benefit" building infrastructure, roads, hospitals to Africa

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-09/27/content_697792.htm

The only problem is that that is what European governments did as well. If we look at former colonies that didn't tear themselves to pieces (like India) we see lots of Colonial infrastructure still in place to this day, benefiting the local populace. So thats not a good defense against colonialism.

Again, I took a short sentence from your link: "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Labeling China as a 'new colonist' in Africa is not fair. It is merely bias in some Western media," he said."

No colonialism there either!

[/FONT]

In the case for colonialism , we can look at Mugabe.

In exchange for ammunition, banned military equipment and political fund-raising money (even up to providing the T-shirts for his campaigns), China has received lucrative energy and resource deals..from a country with 2.2 million % inflation, thats nearing how bad Germany had after WWI when money was worth more as fuel than currency. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...rs-811805.html

Here again I quote from your above link: "China now imports nearly 30 per cent of its oil from Africa along with substantial amounts of copper, uranium, gold, silver and platinum. China will soon overtake the US and Europe as Africa's foremost trading partner."

Zzarchov, why aren't you accusing the US and Europe of African colonialism? I've highlighted it for you.

So, China puts him in power, supports a military, and gets all the resources it needs from the country while the country starves.

How is that NOT colonialism?

That still does not constitute colonialism. If you would name Iraq and Afghanistan as being "colonized" by the US, I could agree with you.... especially Iraq.

So, what is it now with you, Chinese colonialism or not? :lol:

 

[Zzarchov]

Wrong! Hell, can't you read?;-)That is taken from your first link, http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/28/news/sudan.php, and does not state a fact, yet. As you know, Mbeki is good friends with Mugabe. Both do business with China which they could stop, if they worried about becoming a colony of China. That hasn't happened yet.

Thats because that is south africa, which is quite rich on its own, comparatively. I never mentioned south africa as chinese neo-colonialmis. Though, what really would you expect him to say "sorry, don't re-elect me I let our country become a colony on my watch...ooops?"

Again, I took a short sentence from your link: "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Labeling China as a 'new colonist' in Africa is not fair. It is merely bias in some Western media," he said."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]No colonialism there either![/FONT]

That is because that is a counterpoint. That link, from a Chinese Newspaper, is the counterpoint. China claims it is not colonizing because its roads and hospitals bring benefit to Africans.

Why on earth would a counterpoint link I post , agree with me? Furthermore, why wouldn't a Chinese National Newspaper be biased for China when its government controlled (but thats another matter).

My rebuttal to the other side of the argument presented by China, is that European colonialism also built roads and hospitals that benefited the locals.

Here again I quote from your above link: "China now imports nearly 30 per cent of its oil from Africa along with substantial amounts of copper, uranium, gold, silver and platinum. China will soon overtake the US and Europe as Africa's foremost trading partner."

The US did its stint of Colonialism in Africa during the cold war along with the Soviets, and still have lingering colonials influence.

Europe has its colonial influence (especially france) still going strong. France still treats western africa like a colony.

So the real question, is if the US and Europe have both Colonized Africa in the past, and China is now doing what they did..how can that not be colonialism?

Zzarchov, why aren't you accusing the US and Europe of African colonialism? I've highlighted it for you.

Because i didn't think I needed to document well known history. If it helps, I can also point out Europe colonized North America, Asia and Oceana?

That still does not constitute colonialism. If you would name Iraq and Afghanistan as being "colonized" by the US, I could agree with you.... especially Iraq.

If the US starts draining resources from either Iraq or Afghanistan, rather than dumping resources into them, then yes, it will be a Colony.

Who knows maybe even the original evil secret plan was to turn Iraq into colony, either way it sure isn't one now. $200 billion goes in, nothing comes out.

So, what is it now with you, Chinese colonialism or not? :lol:

Its still Chinese colonialism.

 

[data]

I have checked via google and still find no reference to Chinese colonialism in Africa, just business like many other countries conduct there as well.

What is called Neocolonialism with a weak kept trade partner (more effective, than direct colonialism).
What do you think, the 7 years Doha negotiations were failing yesterday (WTO) with multiple expressed concern about world conjuncture?
US cotton farmers are voters. They insist on tax payers subsidies for their export. Africa as competitor wanted therefore permission for import taxes from the WTO in order to protect their own agricultural producers. Guess, what happened despite all public asseverations no longer to pay tax money for killing the African economy?
The US lady only stressed, all their cheep sweets for the new agreement are still in the US basket.

But I came here, because Morgan Tswangirai gave a soft interview on the British Channel 4 about the break of negotiations until Sunday.

mkwasha: bob must leave honourably or else calamity shall fall upon him

Will statesman Morgan be able to make this the Old Man understand? Alone he will not be able, it needs strong support and guidance from his party.

The re-run preparation time was a long pulled crystall night. MDC organizers and their relatives were dealt like Jews and their relatives once in Germany of 1938. The greatest protector of jews from any more violence by spontaneous public anger and fury was Adolf Hitler himself. Jews got adviced to wear the yellow star, that police can better protect them from unconsidered encroachments by true Germans. And Mr. Heidrich (SS) encouraged all Jews to organise them self and help the government to complete their registration for their journey to the promised land of Madagascar. There were even train tickets issued, at reduced prices for complete families. (What railway guides from Germany to Madagascar?)

For what shall Zimbabwe wait for an other 2 years? Such GNU guides to nowhere, but some laughter of Hitler about this stupid Chamberlain, returning from Munich negotiations with a worthless piece of paper.
Either a strong roadmap for a TG comes out, or MDC leadership risk their position in that not just party, but Movement.
If AU and UN are properly watching, MT and Biti must ignore their court cases of High Treason.

Perhaps you could compare the task with that of Georgi Dimitroff in the Reichstagsbrandprozess of 1933/34. Dimitroff kept literally his head and won against Goering (deputy of Hitler), because the world was watching and the Leipzig court procedures got even simultaneous duplicated in London. The German National Socialists lost their ability to manipulate for that moment, but in the end just to learn from. I hope, Zimbabweans are better aware of the dangers.

http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=150375

 

[dancing-loon]

What is called Neocolonialism with a weak kept trade partner (more effective, than direct colonialism).
What do you think, the 7 years Doha negotiations were failing yesterday (WTO) with multiple expressed concern about world conjuncture?
US cotton farmers are voters. They insist on tax payers subsidies for their export. Africa as competitor wanted therefore permission for import taxes from the WTO in order to protect their own agricultural producers. Guess, what happened despite all public asseverations no longer to pay tax money for killing the African economy?
The US lady only stressed, all their cheep sweets for the new agreement are still in the US basket.

O.k., data, one thing at a time. I first have to clarify for myself, and perhaps others as well, the expression neocolonialism.
Here is Wiki's meaning of the term Neocolonialism:

...is a term used by post-colonial critics of developed countries' involvement in the developing world. Critics of neocolonialism argue that existing or past international economic arrangements created by former colonial powers were or are used to maintain control of their former colonies and dependencies after the colonial independence movements of the post World War II period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
--------------------------------------------------------
With this enlightenment I guess I have to give Zzarchow some credit for his conviction there is colonialism in Africa. Well, there is NEO-colonialism in Africa, because China is an Imperial capitalist power taking advantage of a weaker nation!!

 

[dancing-loon]

What do you think, the 7 years Doha negotiations were failing yesterday (WTO) with multiple expressed concern about world conjuncture?

Alright, another "foreign" term I first have to read up on!:roll: = Doha negotiations:

The Doha Development Round is the current trade-negotiation round of the World Trade Organization (WTO) which commenced at Doha, Quatar in November 2001. Its objective is to lower trade barriers around the world, permitting free trade between countries of varying prosperity.
...
The most recent round of negotiations, July 23-29 2008, broke down after failing to reach a compromise on agricultural import rules.[3] Negotiations are not expected to resume until 2009.
....
The United States is being asked by the European Union (EU) and the developing countries, led by Brazil and India, to make a more generous offer for reducing trade-distorting domestic support for agriculture.

Data states...

US cotton farmers are voters. They insist on tax payers subsidies for their export.

Aha, that's what you meant. Being voters they have power which they exert on the government. Therefore it is hard to eliminate the subsidies. With the subsidies the American cotton farmer can compete better on the world market.
Do I understand that right, data?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round
--------------------------------------------------------------
I can see that this is not fair, but that is the Capitalist way... hog the business.

 

[data]

Zim back into neocolonialist Commonwealth?

Do I understand that right, data?

Of course yes. In cotton is power. The great peaceful Ghandi revolution was based on the refusal of Indians, to buy any more British clothes, but rather sew their own handmade.
The empire orders to shoot these disrespectful tribe down was heard only by a few remaining , demoralised colonial troops and the Queen's motherland was much exhausted by the war against Hitler. These soldiers were not useful to do in India, what they fought against in Germany. So the UK decided for a Commonwealth, but not without planting new conflicts and divisions by drawing new borders between India and Pakistan/Bangladesh like before between Afghanistan and Pakistan (Durand line), what could become the trip hazard for Obama, should he get elected (he is already keen to stumble in).

And here something to think about elder people in Zimbabwe (20 Pounds would care for a month):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYW-Urujfco

betty says at 05.03: they are plenty of white organisations helping black africans in the villages and now one organisation wants to help poor whites and its a huge problem

http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=151318

 

[dancing-loon]

S Africa unions stage mass strike

Trade unionists in South Africa are holding a one-day strike which organizers hope will be one of the largest in the post-apartheid era.

The Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) is mobilising its two million members to protest against the high cost of living.

"We hope to also send a strong message to the government that, as the working people in this country, we are not going to be taking on the burden when it comes to financing power," National Union of Mineworkers spokesman Lesiba Seshoka told the BBC's Network Africa programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7544359.stm
----------------------------------------------------------
Although this is South Africa, couldn't the people of Zimbabwe do the same...strike? I guess not:
"Southern African labor leaders say their colleagues in Zimbabwe face increasing harassment."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...s-Zimbabwe.php
---------------------------------------------------------------
A dictator like Mugabe wouldn't allow the unions any power. That's the problem!

 

[dancing-loon]

Of course yes. In cotton is power. The great peaceful Ghandi revolution was based on the refusal of Indians, to buy any more British clothes, but rather sew their own handmade.
The empire orders to shoot these disrespectful tribe down was heard only by a few remaining , demoralized colonial troops and the Queen's motherland was much exhausted by the war against Hitler. These soldiers were not useful to do in India, what they fought against in Germany. So the UK decided for a Commonwealth, but not without planting new conflicts and divisions by drawing new borders between India and Pakistan/Bangladesh like before between Afghanistan and Pakistan (Durand line), what could become the trip hazard for Obama, should he get elected (he is already keen to stumble in).

And here something to think about elder people in Zimbabwe (20 Pounds would care for a month):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYW-Urujfco
http://newzim.proboards86.com/index....&quote=2556310

Those are white British people? Former colonists? Interesting! I never thought about what it is like to live there now as a white person. Perhaps I wouldn't fare any better, if the Natives took back control over Canada.
Cest la vie - such is life!:lol:

I can't access your second link; an error keeps occurring.
------------------------------------
The Durand Line....
I've read about it a little earlier. It is an unnatural border, cutting through the Pashtun's land and thus causes much distress amongst the people living now in two different countries - Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Talibans are mainly Pashtuns and therefore have lots of support from their fellow Pashtuns living across the border in Pakistan.

From Wikipedia...

Because the Durand Line artificially divides the Pashtun people, it continues to be a source of tension between the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Could you elaborate a wee bit why you think Obama is eager to trip over that line?:-? I know he wants to increase forces in Afghanistan. I don't think that is a good idea. He should rather negotiate a settlement and get out of there.

 

[data]

I can't access your second link; an error keeps occurring.

Sorry, now better?

Could you elaborate a wee bit why you think Obama is eager to trip over that line?:-? I know he wants to increase forces in Afghanistan. I don't think that is a good idea. He should rather negotiate a settlement and get out of there.

He is keen to get some foreign credentials (to neutralise some McCain rants). Unfortunately for US cowboys that means to get war credentials. While he smokes a peace pipe towards Iraq he wants to overhaul Bush in Afghanistan.
Weeks ago Pakistan complained about an deadly air attack on their troops in Waziristan. Enduring Freedom tracked down a Taliban unit withdrawing over the east border. It ended up in friendly fire at Pakistan soldiers, who were engaging Taliban on the ground.
Pakistan (holding >80 muslim nukes) warned, US troops should stay outside their country (including tribal areas). But Obama referred to Taliban attackers, they should no longer have a save haven across that border. If Pakistan continues to do almost nothing against their Taliban, allied forces will do the job for them.

The Taliban organisation was founded by the powerful Pakistani secret service ISI in 1991 to increase their influence on Afghanistan. Later on greenhorn Benazir Bhutto supported and even recognized the Taliban government, what ended the destructive tribal warlord power chaos of Mujaheddin in the neighbourhood of 1996 (SU was out and CIA lost interest). But high jihad war credential honour guest OBL was working on using his reputation as influential friend of big CIA...

Zimbabwes 2Boy Tekere was also keen to get real war credentials. In 1981 he shaked hands with Mugabe and Samora Machel, but unusual wearing camouflage uniform and said, he is on his way to battle some enemies. A white farm manager held his troop for some robbers and pointed his rifle at them to leave the property. But 2Boy's security guards opened fire and one of the bullets killed the white farm manager. The nearby army post sweared to have seen nothing, but Tekere blazed, that he just killed a criminal Rhodie. He didn't know the man. The case came on High court, blaming Tekere of murder. The old white judge set him free due to an emergency law of Ian Smith, what excused state officers on duty from any prosecution. Mugabe insisted, he was on duty, but let then cancel that law.
A year later Tekere admitted in an interview in Kenya, that one of his guards fired the deadly shot, as the police investigation of the riddled body proved. But his guards followed only strict orders, otherwise he would have shot the man himself. The Kenya government let him not hold a scheduled revolution lecture at the university, but detained him as murder suspect. They were not aware of his solved court case at home. At least the EU fund raiser and ZANU war talker Tekere has got his war credentials. 8O
His chimurenga name was 2Boy, since he contained 2 personalities, who did not know much from each other.

 

[dancing-loon]

Sorry, now better?

No, still the same notification:[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]« An Error Has Occurred »
No big deal, it's just a forum.[/SIZE]

Pakistan (holding >80 Muslim nukes) warned, US troops should stay outside their country (including tribal areas).

Nukes are nukes, data... why do you specify them as "Muslim" nukes?:-?

But Obama referred to Taliban attackers, they should no longer have a save haven across that border.

Our Canadian Stephan Dion has pointed that out half a year ago... it is nothing new, and Obama is more or less reitering what others have said before him. Although it does make sense, if you want to eradicate the Taliban, it is nevertheless very foolish and only opens another can of worms by making the Pakistanis angry.

If Pakistan continues to do almost nothing against their Taliban, allied forces will do the job for them.

Well, so far they haven't! Pakistan is an ally of the US. And besides, because of the Durand Line many Pashtun/Taliban ended up in Pakistan. It's asking too much of Pakistan to kill its own people...you just don't go and kill your own people to help another greedy country to bring your neighbor under their control! That's exactly in plain words what it amounts to.

The Taliban organization was founded by the powerful Pakistani secret service ISI in 1991 to increase their influence on Afghanistan.

That is not quite correct. It was Muhammad Omar who founded the Taliban.
Here is an excellent site which explains who is who in Afghanistan: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/afghanistan1.html

And here is the reference to Muhammad Omar, founder of the Taliban:
Muhammad Omar

Founder of the Taliban
Born: 1962
Birthplace: Uruzgan province, south Afghanistan
Son of a poor farmer, Omar grew up near the southern city of Kandahar. An ethnic Pashtun and a Sunni Muslim, in the early 1980s Omar studied in religious schools in Quetta, Pakistan. Although he is known as a mullah, a religious teacher, he is not a cleric. While fighting the Soviets, Omar reportedly lost an eye, which is now stitched shut. After the collapse of the Soviet-backed government in 1992, civil war erupted between various warlords and factions. In an effort to establish order, Omar founded the Taliban, which quickly captured much of the country, including the capital, Kabul, in 1996. Since then Omar has been the leading member of the Taliban's six-member ruling council. Known as "Commander of the Faithful," Omar is reportedly married to one of Osama bin Laden's daughters, and is believed to have close ties with the Pakistani intelligence service.

This latter fact will make it impossible for the Pakistani government to fight its own branch of Taliban. For the Alliance (NATO) to go across the border into Pakistan would be a gross violation of that country's sovereignty! They better think twice, including Obama, before doing that.

But read this excerpt about the Taliban:
Muhammad Rabbani
Spiritual leader and deputy commander of the Taliban, 1994–2001
Born: 1956
Birthplace: Pashmol, Afghanistan
Rabbani (no relation to former President Rabbani) dropped out of Islamic seminary and joined the mujahideen when the Soviets invaded in 1979. He became a prominent commander and developed a considerable following. Although he originally returned to his religious studies when the communist government fell in 1992, the continuous fighting among the warlords prompted Rabbani and 30 other students to form the Taliban, a fighting force to restore order. The Taliban quickly conquered much of southern Afghanistan. When they captured Kabul in 1996, Rabbani gave a press conference and was named head of the Kabul Council, in effect making him prime minister, second in command only to Mullah Omar. Rabbani died in 2001 of cancer in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.

On this website <http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html> I finally find reference to Pakistan educating the Taliban:
Most of the Taliban's leaders were educated in Pakistan, in refugee camps where they had fled with millions of other Afghans after the Soviet invasion. Pakistan's Jami'at-e 'Ulema-e Islam (JUI) political party provided welfare services, education, and military training for refugees in many of these camps. They also established religious schools in the Deobandi tradition. Etc.

Again, one can see how closely connected to Pakistan the Taliban are.
My advice to Obama would be not to fight them, but to negotiate and recognize them as intelligent humans.

Later on greenhorn Benazir Bhutto supported and even recognized the Taliban government, what ended the destructive tribal warlord power chaos of Mujaheddin in the neighbourhood of 1996 (SU was out and CIA lost interest). But high jihad war credential honour guest OBL was working on using his reputation as influential friend of big CIA...

And what was his influence on the Taliban government? What did he do that made the CIA/US believe he was their enemy? 9/11? Elaborate, please.

 

[dancing-loon]

Back on track with Zimbabwe!

BBC News writes...
"Talks are under way in Zimbabwe to try to finalise a power-sharing deal between President Robert Mugabe and the opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai.

South African President Thabo Mbeki is acting as mediator at the talks, which are taking place in a Harare hotel.

Reports in some South African papers say a deal is close, and that a final agreement could be reached shortly.

One widely touted solution is that Mr Mugabe, the Zanu-PF leader, may become ceremonial president while Mr Tsvangirai, leader of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change, is made executive prime minister.

South African mediators say that talks are aimed at creating some form of coalition, but there is disagreement over who would lead a unity government and over Mr Mugabe's exact role.

For the two men to achieve a power-sharing deal will be no easy matter, as they share nothing but a mutual loathing, says BBC Africa analyst, Martin Plaut."

Read more here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7552202.stm
----------------------------------------------------
".... until everything is agreed, nothing is agreed!"
As an outsider, who has read the atrocities committed by Mugabe, his cheating at the polls, I have very little hope anyone could possibly "share" power with him. But signs and wonders are still possible in our world so, perhaps by some magic it could work out to everyone's good. For the sake of the hundreds of thousands of refugees I wish it will work.

 

[data]

President Mbeki greets Emmerson Mnangagwa (head of JOC) at the Harare International Airport last night
​

Read more here: http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=152172
What has MT got for accepting presidency of RGM?

haiwatigere: Grace Marufu Mugabe: Mt will never come to statehouse except to clean it.

mactaps: I'm not happy with the move Tsvangi is taking... THINK AGAIN TSVANGI MUGABE & COMPANY ARE SMILING.

kano: asylum seeker!!!

data: You are not abroad and closer informed about events? What's your explanation of presidency acceptance for the old man by MT? See my friendly interpretation before answering.

mark: The problem is Zanu PF killed to get power and will not be talked out of it now.

data: That's what Mugabe always said. In Egypt AU instructed to find a GNU during more toks. That was a formula compromise to get the problem from their table.
Now Mbeki needs something to present at the scheduled SADC summit in Gaborone next weekend. So a next formulation of the same formula compromise got defined (just describing the problem, not yet solving anything):

US or French style interpretation (ZANU):
RGM gets his presidency recognized, while MT gets a new post of a prime minister, who has to execute the instructions of the president and can even get fired, if he fails to follow presidents orders sufficiently (like: "Fix economy and let lift sanctions for me and Grace!"). These transitional government would last 5 years, as toks would not have even happened.

British (starting Zimbabwean) or German style interpretation (MDC):
RGM gets his presidency recognized, but only with ceremonial powers. MT gets full powers as CEO of government for the transition period of no longer than 2 years till next elections. The 6 month of AU constitution must get prolonged in order to get a new constitution.

The crucial power question got no bit more settled, besides a MDC agreement, that RGM could glue the TG time longer on his chair. I wonder, why EU agencies celebrate already, GNU is settled, only details are still to solve. One could think, they are not really interested in these Third World matter and accept the first impression as news.

 

[dancing-loon]

What a nice picture, data! They all look so shiny and happy.

So, talks did resume today, Monday, Aug. 11th, but nothing was agreed upon yet.

A deal would require approval from security and military chiefs, powerful figures with broad influence over Mr. Mugabe who want to make sure they are not vulnerable to international prosecution when the political dust settles, analysts say.

A ZANU-PF official said a breakthrough was achieved when the MDC agreed to recognize Mr. Mugabe's legitimacy as president. He said Mr. Mugabe's position was not negotiable.

ZANU-PF had agreed on Mr. Tsvangirai as prime minister, but “not in the sense” of media reports which have said he will be given executive powers while Mr. Mugabe becomes a ceremonial president, the official said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home
----------------------------------------------------------------
I guess it will become true that MT gets to clean the Palace at least!!8O:lol:

P.S.
I read it is actually millions that fled from Zimbabwe.

 

[dancing-loon]

Latest news:
Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe has said he will continue talks on a power sharing deal with the opposition despite reaching no deal so far.
The talks between his governing Zanu-PF party and opposition officials are due to resume on Tuesday after adjourning for the night.
Mr Mugabe had earlier said he felt sure differences could be overcome.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7553621.stm
--------------------------------------------------------
I believe that when I see it!

 

[dancing-loon]

Here is something I want to bring to the attention of the CC readership:
Torture camps
Mr Tsvangirai won the first round of Zimbabwe's presidential election in March, before pulling out of a June run-off because of a campaign of violence against his supporters.
On Tuesday, Human Rights Watch said in a report that the campaign of violence had continued, with ruling Zanu-PF supporters continuing to terrorize villagers in rural areas.
The government was making little effort to dismantle torture camps set up by its supporters, and hundreds of opposition activists were still in hiding, it said.

Full article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7556469.stm
---------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone believe this brutal dictatorship will consent to fair power sharing? It is a masquerade of faked willingness. Mugabe has to go! He has earned the right to a long vacation in Guantanamo!!

 

[data]

Mugabe has to go! He has earned the right to a long vacation in Guantanamo!!

Guantanamo will get closed soon and served as experimental test field of scapegoats and new torture practices for the US administration intended failure to fight international terrorism.
Mugabe and his team are guilty and belong to The Hague, even that USA are afraid to recognize ICC due to their own records.

​

A young of work age but unemployed, waves a car to a stop to ask for donations. The young men, some who have left school, are fixing pot holes on Harare's unserviced roads. July 13, 2008.

Weeks after the violent campaign by ZANU-PF ahead of the June 27 election, MDC activists and supporters are still dieing of their wounds [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Runyararo Mugauri, an MDC activist who was severely attacked by ZanuPF supporters early this month in Chiweshe, died on Saturday at ahospital in Harare. According to medical reports, Mugauri, who was the MDC youth secretaryfor Mazowe district was attacked with blunt objects at his homestead,resulting in him receiving serious injuries.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Party officials assisted to have Mugauri ferried to Harare for treatment but due to the nature of the injuries doctors failed to perform skin grafting leading him to succumb to his death on Saturday night. "We tried our best to help him but due to the seriousness of his injuries, Mugauri could not live for long. He was in urgent need of skin grafting on his buttocks but this could not be performed as he was in a very bad state," said the doctor who was attending to Mugauri.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The death of Mugauri brings to 125 the number of MDC supporters who have been murdered at the hands of Zanu PF supporters.Last week Zanu PF supporters killed two more MDC supporters including Fungisayi Ziome also from Chiweshe and although police reports were filed and some of the perpetrators identified, no arrests have been made.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Mugauri, is expected to be buried in Chiweshe on Friday, 15 August, 2008.[/FONT]

http://www.hararetribune.com/index.php?news=275

 

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At the preparing SADC minister meeting in Sandton (SA) for the summit on Saturday all three parties will address the assembly (Mugabe, Mutambara and Tswangirai) + Mbeki as mediator.
Botswana does not recognise the presidentship of Mugabe. Tswangirai and his team got their passports confiscated at Harare airport, as they tried to leave to Johannesburg this morning. It is said, Mugabe tried to present there an agreement with NASA rocket scientist Mutambara as way to GNU, call parliament in function and form a GNU government.
Botswana government called the present SADC secretary for security and internal affairs from Angola and he agreed, that all parties should participate. South Africa decided, that Morgan Tswangirai is allowed to enter the country even without passport. Suddenly the Zim government handed the passports to the MDC-T politicians out and they were going at 6pm to Johannesburg.
Meanwhile human rights organisations complain, that murderous violence against MDC-T politicans continued after so-called re-elections and did not stop after signing the Memorandum Of Understanding (MOU) for the talks.

My position is, Mbeki has to care, that participants stick to their signed frame conditions of the talks. Otherwise it should get enforced by robust monitors from SADC, AU and if required from UN. Otherwise ZANU and boss Mugabe would go on playing democracy according to their understanding.
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By Lance Guma
14 August 2008

Zimbabwe’s political drama continued Thursday, with accusations from the MDC that ZANU PF government ministers and security agents were trying to bribe its members of parliament to join a unity government. A statement from the party said Mugabe’s regime had approached several MP’s asking them to submit their C.V’s for possible appointment into a new government. ‘These are the actions of a desperate and cornered regime, which we find corrosive,’ the MDC said.

Analysts say Mugabe and his party were hoping to pressure Tsvangirai into accepting a junior role in a unity government, but that Tuesday’s walk out by the MDC leader had shattered the plan. The new strategy attempts to side-step Tsvangirai and offer some of his 100 MP’s positions of power, influence and wealth. The state media reported Tuesday that a deal had been struck with the Mutambara MDC to form a new government. This was denied by the breakaway faction and even the talks facilitator Thabo Mbeki was forced to deny a deal had been done without Tsvangirai.

While the SADC summit this weekend offers another window of opportunity to break the impasse, MDC officials told Newsreel the regime was already reaching out to its MP’s with promises of money and positions. Our correspondent Lionel Saungweme says the plot was activated two weeks ago with a female Bulawayo legislator being the first to be offered a bribe. The legislator told Saungweme she was offered government tenders for her business and a car, if she ensured she voted for a speaker of parliament from the Mnangagwa faction of ZANU PF.
The issue of MP’s being offered bribes has been serious enough to warrant Tsvangirai raising it in the last National Executive meeting of the party. At the meeting Tsvangirai told party officials he knew several of them had been offered bribes by ZANU PF but that it was important to remain loyal to the people who voted for them.​

http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=152953

Justice : Thats nothing special. People who really knows politics know that those types of "deals" are possible to create a coaliation government. It doesn't happen that much in Britain's electoral system, but it happens a lot elsewhere. Like in Italia, for example, because the election process is proportional (which means a lot of political parties got some seats in parliament). In those countries to form a coalition government, the main parties (if and which doesn't have 50%+1 of the seats) try to buy out other parties seats with all kind of promises. Its typical.
You know what I'm saying is true and well known so stop it with your idiotic reply. Its political science 101.

data: It is not political science. It's mafia science. I feel sorry for you, that you never learned the difference.
We had some of these bribery in the EU, but as soon as it gets public, it will get eradicated. And it must go to voters awareness.

 

[typingrandomstuff]

Most of the debaters are using emotions to argue.