Zimbabwe...no end to the power struggle!

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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The UN is not an organization that supports democracy. It is not now, nor has it ever been any kind of organization that supports good governance or any kind of society we in Canada would wish to live in.

It is a meeting place for Despots and Dictators to speak to each other. China came to power by shooting the opposition and suppressing all democracy (to the point of forbidding voting on their version of Canadian Idol). Why on earth would you expect it to sanction mugabe for doing as they do?

There is a reason the UN isn't a world government or even a world authority figure.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The UN is not an organization that supports democracy. It is not now, nor has it ever been any kind of organization that supports good governance or any kind of society we in Canada would wish to live in.

It is a meeting place for Despots and Dictators to speak to each other. China came to power by shooting the opposition and suppressing all democracy (to the point of forbidding voting on their version of Canadian Idol). Why on earth would you expect it to sanction mugabe for doing as they do?

There is a reason the UN isn't a world government or even a world authority figure.

And which door do we have to pick to get you to elaborate on that reason? Could it be that the owners of the planet never intended for the UN to become a working institution for universal good?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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And which door do we have to pick to get you to elaborate on that reason? Could it be that the owners of the planet never intended for the UN to become a working institution for universal good?


Thats actually bluntly stated, the UN is a meeting place so people can talk before wars start.

It is not, nor has it ever been intended to be a world government, alot of people have that mistaken concept though.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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uh huh, and by capitalist pig dogs you mean communists right? Are you forgetting their joint control?
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Right off the bat I could mention that US and Israel have destroyed the power of the UN... both of them don't give a fart about what the UN decides, IF it doesn't suit their plans.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
uh huh, and by capitalist pig dogs you mean communists right? Are you forgetting their joint control?

Communism is gone Zzarchov in fact it never really existed as described. The G8 dictate much of what goes on in the world. Are they not powerful and armed to the teeth and are they not right at this moment conducting offensive warfare in numerous locals? Mugabee kissed off the meddling colonialists that is the single reason for the non stop propaganda against him. If you want to see some bloodshed that needs addressing look to Somalia. But that's the wests proxies killing for change, Ethiopean troops armed to the teeth by the west and doing the Anglo-American dirty work while thier own people starve. Leave Mugabe and compnay alone if the country wasn't stuffed with resources we wouldn't hear a beep about thier lack of democrasy.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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Communism is gone Zzarchov in fact it never really existed as described. The G8 dictate much of what goes on in the world. Are they not powerful and armed to the teeth and are they not right at this moment conducting offensive warfare in numerous locals? Mugabee kissed off the meddling colonialists that is the single reason for the non stop propaganda against him. If you want to see some bloodshed that needs addressing look to Somalia. But that's the wests proxies killing for change, Ethiopean troops armed to the teeth by the west and doing the Anglo-American dirty work while thier own people starve. Leave Mugabe and compnay alone if the country wasn't stuffed with resources we wouldn't hear a beep about thier lack of democrasy.

dark,
please explain this in full detail:

and I quote -- " But that's the wests proxies killing for change,....."
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
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"The government is also encouraging the few Canadian companies that do business with Zimbabwe to voluntarily stop."


GREAT move!

The African conflicts in no way mirror other conflicts in today's world. They seem to have the least regard for human beings than any other regime in existence now or at any time in the past. Conflict in the world's second largest continent has been going on longer than recorded history. It has for a long while become a way of life for them and if they accept it as that, for what it really is....why should anyone interfere?
Their problem so let them solve it...if they can...which is doubtful because munition exporters...primarily the United States are making loads of money from this.
Intervention will not occur because Africa is a new source of revenue for a lot of counties besides the U.S.
When it becomes unprofitable the shipments will stop but the conflicts will go on and no-one will care.
The suppliers will go cherry picking elsewhere. And Africa will become history.

IMO: Just a point of view.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
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The UN is not an organization that supports democracy. It is not now, nor has it ever been any kind of organization that supports good governance or any kind of society we in Canada would wish to live in.

It is a meeting place for Despots and Dictators to speak to each other. China came to power by shooting the opposition and suppressing all democracy (to the point of forbidding voting on their version of Canadian Idol). Why on earth would you expect it to sanction mugabe for doing as they do?

There is a reason the UN isn't a world government or even a world authority figure.
Hi, Zzarchov;
The UN operates on principles of democracy! It is not a world police that would harass and dictate their policies. Wrong is the behavior and the manipulations of infantile members!! The constant disregard and violations of democratically voted resolutions. An institution can only function as good as its members are honestly willing to work with the whole and for the common good of all. I think there has to be some kind of punishment for rogue states who can't work together with others and only keep their own advantages in mind. Especially the USA and Israel deserve some criticism in this regard.

Read the noble aspirations of the UN founders....
WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and


to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,


AND FOR THESE ENDS


to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Remember your childhood, you were born into the heaven country of Adolf Hitler.
As far as I am concerned it was not a bad time, except for the loss of one of my brothers. I was too little yet to know what was going on.
Nice to see, that you keep interest. You may check out, where I found a Zimbabwe thread in the bigger Spiegel-Forum from Germany. I didn't like that forum, because user are not allowed to set own themes. But I caused first trouble among some German speaking Rhodies by always bringing German history in. Each post gets reviewed first by admins, but up to except my last post I came through. I jumped in here: http://forum.spiegel.de/showthread.php?p=2446544#post2446544 (one week ago).
Yes, data, if you keep on stirring up Germany's Nazy era, you can get on people's nerves, even Rhodesians!!:lol:

I tried some time ago to get on the Spiegel forum, but find it too big and full of "intelligent people"! Now in the summer I'm not so bored, because I have time to spend in my garden. CC serves me well most of the time.

For Englisch speaker is of course the Newzim forum hot, where I don't need the -x of data-x. http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general
I start perhaps to make peace with Emmerson Mnangagwa, not the the JOC-head, but Baby Emmo, his former admirer and young, intelligent and proud CIO (on which side ever). Should he have still contact to send them peace messages? Not necessary. That forum is required reading for CIO and ZANU top brass, since they may have influence, but fail to control it. Training in democracy with fun. ;-)

Zimbabweans discuss the draft resolution about UN sanctions and 14 names.
http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=146620
I know, I saw and read you there!! You are so involved with it and naturally have far more knowledge about the situation there than I have.
It's nice of you to pop by every so often and keep in touch. It's much appreciated.:smile:
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Hi, Zzarchov;
The UN operates on principles of democracy! It is not a world police that would harass and dictate their policies. Wrong is the behavior and the manipulations of infantile members!! The constant disregard and violations of democratically voted resolutions. An institution can only function as good as its members are honestly willing to work with the whole and for the common good of all. I think there has to be some kind of punishment for rogue states who can't work together with others and only keep their own advantages in mind. Especially the USA and Israel deserve some criticism in this regard.

Read the noble aspirations of the UN founders....

The "Especially USA and Israel" bit bothers me.

Its media spin to believe either the USA or Israel are worse than anyone else.


Are you familiar with current Chinese Colonialism in Africa?
Indian government actions?
The Role of the EU (especially france) in West Africa?
The horrors central asian "republics" are causing on themselves?


Sovereignty means a duty to you and those who comprise you above all else.

What you are talking about is a merging of nations in the world into one world government, seeing as most nations are not democratic or free...no thanks.


Im also curious what "punishments" you can dole out without being the world police and using force (meaning you'd need a UN army).
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Hi, Zzarchov;
thanks for your good response. I have to admit I don't know much about the points you raised, but have started to look up Chinese Colonialism in Africa... for starters, and find it doesn't exist yet.

During a trip to Nigeria last February, Britain's then foreign secretary, Jack Straw, remarked that what China was doing in Africa now was much the same as Britain had done 150 years before. Like Straw, some Western scholars and politicians maintain that China is a new colonizing power, exploiting Africa's natural resources and harming its quest for democracy and human rights.

After World War II, de-colonization movements blossomed in Africa and Asia, which finally overthrew and buried the colonial system. Unfortunately, a new colonialism paradigm subsequently emerged and quickly grew in 1960s as some Western nations became new colonizing powers through capital investments and high-tech production.

This neo-colonialism embraces all aspects of classic colonialism except for occupying foreign lands, since all states in Africa remain technically independent. In this neo-colonialism, the exploiting power controls weaker states' economic resources and political systems and exploits their wealth under name of liberal capitalism.

So where does China fall? Is it a colonizing power or not when it engages Africa, especially as more and more Chinese began to arrive on the continent from the beginning of the 21st century?
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Moreover, China hasn't used deceitful means to steal and exploit African resources. Relations between China and African countries are grounded on reciprocal benefits, which is not just a slogan but a fact. Financial aid and other investments from China without political conditions are very helpful for African economies. For instance in 2005, the rate of China's contribution to Africa's total economic growth was at least 5%. Simultaneously, China buys African resources at a fair price to fuel its rapid economic growth.

Though China is not a colonialist, it is a successful capitalist in Africa. The path it has taken on that continent is consistent with the logic of market capitalism - liberal trade based on fair contracts.

So, dear Zzarchov, that debunks your suggestion of Chinese Colonialsm in Africa! China is doing fair business with Africa.
Sorry, my time is limited, but I'll be back to respond further to your post.

http://atimes.com/atimes/China/IA05Ad01.html
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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No, I would dispute that.

China does not deal "fair business" with Africa, it deals fair business with African despots.

" Friendship " prices for arms and security apparatus (shackles etc). Darfur for instance is funded by Chinese interests.

Which gets into "what is colonialism?"

If China put a Chinese person in military control of an African country, gave him weapons to supress rebellions by the people there, and exported resources they needed. that would be colonialsm.

If China puts an African person in military control of an African country, gave him weapons to supress rebellions by the local people and exported resources they needed, is that now fair business?
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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No, I would dispute that.

China does not deal "fair business" with Africa, it deals fair business with African despots.

" Friendship " prices for arms and security apparatus (shackles etc). Darfur for instance is funded by Chinese interests.

Which gets into "what is colonialism?"

If China put a Chinese person in military control of an African country, gave him weapons to supress rebellions by the people there, and exported resources they needed. that would be colonialsm.

If China puts an African person in military control of an African country, gave him weapons to supress rebellions by the local people and exported resources they needed, is that now fair business?
None of your examples constitute colonialism.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
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Mugabe is showing his caring nature:
Zimbabwe's government is to distribute food hampers to help people deal with inflation of 2,200,000%.

Basic products to last a family of six for a month will cost Z$100bn, the current cost of a loaf of bread, the state-run Herald newspaper reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7511147.stm
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The government must have some huge storage facilities, or from where could they have gotten it? I guess the world has been sending food.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
Mugabe is showing his caring nature:
Zimbabwe's government is to distribute food hampers to help people deal with inflation of 2,200,000%.

Basic products to last a family of six for a month will cost Z$100bn, the current cost of a loaf of bread, the state-run Herald newspaper reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7511147.stm
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The government must have some huge storage facilities, or from where could they have gotten it? I guess the world has been sending food.

His caring nature? He has destroyed the country, there is nothing caring about that. What he is doing is trying to keep his grip on power, feed the citizens a bit, keep power a little longer.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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None of your examples constitute colonialism.


If putting a military governor in charge of a country and then taking the resources you want out at less than their fair value isn't colonialism, what is it you think Colonialism is?
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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U.S. bolstering Zimbabwe sanctions

The United States is in the process of strengthening sanctions against individual Zimbabweans blamed for deadly electoral violence. Spokesman Mark Weinberg said that "proposed new sanctions are under review by the White House and the State Department" targeting "individuals we hold responsible for subverting the will of the people of Zimbabwe, people associated with the regime and those responsible for the recent violence and political problems."

The sanctions would bar the individuals from traveling to the United States and freeze any assets they had there, he told AP.

A U.S. embassy statement said President George W. Bush wants to "send a strong message that the United States will not allow individuals closely associated with the Mugabe regime the freedom to operate in our financial markets."

The European Union on Tuesday broadened similar sanctions against Zimbabweans, adding 37 new individuals and companies to the existing list of 131.

The sanctions would add to the pressure on Mugabe. His ruling party and the opposition this week began power-sharing talks to try to resolve the country's economic and political crisis.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...e_N.htm?csp=34
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I hope it will work. Somehow I can't picture these individuals would care much about traveling to the States or not. As for freezing their assets hidden in the US I think that comes too late. IF they had any assets there, they would have transferred them by now.