youtube link: Non-Violent Protest against Israel Apartheid Wall

[earth_as_one]

You're right. I haven't shown these displaced people most of whom have never harmed anyone reacting immediately with violence in response to an act of violence by Israel.

But sometimes that does happen:

All your armies, All your fighters,
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]All your tanks and all your soldiers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Against a boy holding a stone, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Standing there all alone.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]In his eyes I see the sun,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]In his smile I see the moon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]And I wonder I only wonder.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Who is weak and who is strong,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]who is right and who is wrong. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]And I wish I only wish. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]That the truth has a tongue. (Qasem Qasem, 2000)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-2]The boy and the tank: The picture shows an Israeli tank which marched towards a Palestinian street to crush a demonstration by the Palestinians. It sprayed the demonstrators with bullets resulting in 14 serious injuries. Then Faris Odeh (13) charged against it. Faris started throwing stones at it. Faris later on died in unrelated incident. Read the Stories section: Assassination of Innocence[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.intifada.com/childhood.html

Is that boy as brave as this?

How come this lone man facing down a tank in Tiananmen was such a big story, while a Palestinian boy doing the same thing wasn't? Was it because this boy was less brave?

I admit all I've shown is how the people Israel displaced lost everything they ever owned, faced rape, murder, torture, disposession, then followed by years of oppression and injustice which continues to this day. I've shown how over the years Israel's victims systematically loose more and more as their situation becomes more and more desperate. Shouldn't that be enough?

 

[Just the Facts]

Are you saying that you were forcibly evicted from your home by soldiers and lost everything you owned?

My parents were, yes. They were genuinely evicted by soldiers, at gunpoint, given fifteen minutes to gather what they could carry. And yes, they lost everything. And no, they don't live in refugee camps along the border demanding compensation and right of return. See, they got on with life.

How exactly does one "get on with their life" when they live under the level of injustice and oppression suffered by Palestinians?

By laying down their arms.

Does that sound voluntary? Or do you believe Father Rantisi is lying? I can find hundreds more stories like this.

There are many such stories, that's not disputed. Your point is moot.

The number of displaced persons was in the thousands. Hundreds of thousands left of their own accord.

In order for your beliefs about the creation of Israel to be true, not only would people like Father Rantisi have to be lying, but Israeli historians would also have to be lying. Perhaps you can tell me why Israeli historians are lying about Israel's past.

They're not lying. But you are, or you are attempting to mislead, which can be construed as a form of lying, by using fallacy of composition. What's true for some is not neccessarily true for all.

 

[Just the Facts]

How come this lone man facing down a tank in Tiananmen was such a big story, while a Palestinian boy doing the same thing wasn't? Was it because this boy was less brave?

Because this boy did not cause the confrontation by firing Quassam rockets at the tank driver's family, he was not targeting the tank driver's children with explosives on a school bus, he did not ambush and cold bloodedly execute the tank drivers wife and children as she drove to town to shop for groceries.

It really is just that simple.

 

[Zzarchov]

You're right. I haven't shown these displaced people most of whom have never harmed anyone reacting immediately with violence in response to an act of violence by Israel.

Wait, so what is your point here? They either share collective guilt/ownership and are "refugees" who were never born in Israel and have never set foot in Israel but somehow have a right of return and are thus collectively responsible for the harm done by their neighbours whom they don't stop.

OR

They are not collectively responsible, there is no "right of return" and all this talk about "Stolen land" is nonsense, though they don't deserve such harsh punishments.

So which is it?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-2]The boy and the tank: The picture shows an Israeli tank which marched towards a Palestinian street to crush a demonstration by the Palestinians. It sprayed the demonstrators with bullets resulting in 14 serious injuries. Then Faris Odeh (13) charged against it. Faris started throwing stones at it. Faris later on died in unrelated incident. Read the Stories section: Assassination of Innocence[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.intifada.com/childhood.html

Is that boy as brave as this?

How come this lone man facing down a tank in Tiananmen was such a big story, while a Palestinian boy doing the same thing wasn't? Was it because this boy was less brave?

I admit all I've shown is how the people Israel displaced lost everything they ever owned, faced rape, murder, torture, disposession, then followed by years of oppression and injustice which continues to this day. I've shown how over the years Israel's victims systematically loose more and more as their situation becomes more and more desperate. Shouldn't that be enough?

Because the guy facing down the tank in Tianenmen square did so peacefully.

As I've stated many times, Palestine is choosing to bathe itself in blood by waging a war. Live by the sword, die by the sword. It cannot be avoided and brings nothing but death.

Peaceful non-compliance and resistance however, does work. And it does get attention.

Its the difference between a two year old throwing a tempter tantrum and an adult making a decision.


All you have ever shown is people throwing bombs around getting killed, and getting those around them killed.

Its no different than Gang Warfare, only larger scale. Though, some US gangs, its actually SMALLER scale.


You still need to answer, do Palestinians have collective ownership of Palestine and thus collective guilt.

Or do they not have collective guilt, but also have no claim on their parents land?

They can't cherry pick the best of both worlds.

 

[Logic 7]

If you support this(as you do earth as one), you must be insane...

Nobody support this, but you do support this.

Thankx to guys like you are who support israel blindly.

 

[Zzarchov]

Simple way to beat Israel? Stop fighting a war of violence.

But thanks to people who support Palestine bombing busses (even if they say they don't with a wink and a smile), Palestine is gonna keep being a hellhole.

 

[earth_as_one]

My parents were, yes. They were genuinely evicted by soldiers, at gunpoint, given fifteen minutes to gather what they could carry. And yes, they lost everything. And no, they don't live in refugee camps along the border demanding compensation and right of return. See, they got on with life.

By laying down their arms.

There are many such stories, that's not disputed. Your point is moot.

They're not lying. But you are, or you are attempting to mislead, which can be construed as a form of lying, by using fallacy of composition. What's true for some is not neccessarily true for all.

I'm sorry to here that you parents were forced out of their homes. But did your parents eventually become citizens of a country? That's an important part of "getting on with your life".

4 million people displaced as a result of Israel's creation and continued expansion are not citizens of any country. These people are restricted to their refugee camps and cannot leave. Many of these refugee camps lack basic servies like sewer, potable water and electricity as a result of Israel's collective punishment against them because a few of them refuse to accept the injustice, oppression and humiliation peacefully. Also these people suffer critical shortages of food and medical services as a result of the Israeli led international aid embargo.

If this was your parent's experience, then how were they able to leave? Seems to me they must have had choices most people displaced by Israel's creation/expansion do not.

I'm sure most if not all of these displaced people would like to be citizens of a country, but no country is willing to accept them. They would like to form their own country, but unfortunately their "country" doesn't exist and probably never will. Land which was set aside for the creation of a Palestinian state has been invaded and occupied by Israel. Over the last 60 years, Israel keeps annexing more and more of it. Palestinians won't find out about how much land they will eventually get for their country... if any... until after Israel has finished annexing the parts it wants. Until then, Israel continues to raze their homes, annex their land and build more Jewish only colonies. Over the years, some people have been forced out of their homes multiple times, yet they still have no where else to go.

How does one "get on with their life" when you are forced to live like a prisoner?

Z, international law is clear on the issue of refugees and their descendants right of return. If Israel can't abide by its international obligations, international law and the conditions it agreed to when it was recognized by the UN then it should withdraw from the UN.

Why a 'Right of Return' Is Necessary
By Sari Hanafi*
Bitterlemons
September 27, 2004


The right of return of Palestinian refugees to their place of origin is enshrined in four separate bodies of international law: humanitarian law, human rights law, the law of nationality as applied to state succession, and refugee law. Beyond these bodies of laws, which apply to all refugees in the world, the UN General Assembly specified the Palestinian case in Resolution 194, paragraph 11, which sets forth a framework for a solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees, including the possibility of return: "The refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the governments or authorities responsible."

To understand the importance of the refugee issue to Palestinians, we must understand that the Palestinian nation and Palestinian nationalism as it exists today was born following the expulsion of over half the Palestinian population from their land in 1948, and that one of the fundamental aspects of Palestinian identity is "refugeehood." Such an understanding obliges us to address the problem of the Palestinian refugees as fundamental to any solution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

There are five reasons for this: First, as long as the Israelis do not take into consideration what happened to the Palestinians in 1948 and the expulsion of the indigenous population from 78 percent of the land of historic Palestine, they will keep bargaining about the remaining 22 percent (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). There is no solution to the land issue without coupling it with the refugee issue. This may be the reason why the Oslo Accords failed.

Second, resolving the refugee issue is not just a technical matter of absorption, nor is it a matter of reciting international law like reciting the Koran. Rather, it involves deconstructing the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to its very premises, to understand how its causes led to a certain kind of colonial practice, and to recognize the need for a debate not just to understand, but also to acknowledge and accept, historic responsibility. This is the very precondition for true reconciliation and mutual forgiveness, as suggested by the late Edward Said.

Third, irrespective of whether the final resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict takes the form of a two-state or a binational state solution, the refugee issue cannot be considered secondary. The current intifada has revealed the importance of the refugees; they are the social and political actors most unable to bear the impasse in the Oslo process.
Fourth, beyond the moral and symbolic value of achieving a right of return, the right is useful in creating a framework for providing refugees with a choice between remaining in their host countries, returning to their places of origin or coming to a future Palestinian state (or third countries). The right of choice is a necessity for those who have, for half a century, been forced to live as aliens without basic rights in miserable camps and in states that have not always embraced them with open arms...

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/return/2004/0927necessary.htm

Most people Israel displaced never committed any acts of violence. The onus should be on Israel to prove which people have committed acts of violence and allow the erst to return. Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental component of justice.

Israel was only recognized by the UN after Israel agreed to allow refugees the right of return. Israel still hasn't met the conditions for its acceptance into the UN:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/a0...c758572b78d1cd0085256bcf0077e51a!OpenDocument

Israel's treatment of the people it displaced and their descendants violates nearly every recognized fundamental human right:

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

If someone bought a house on condition that they would pay for it and then never made a single payment, would they be allowed to keep the house? I don't think so. In effect that is what Israel has gotten away with for nearly 60 years.

Until this issue is resolved, Israel will never have peace and the number of people committed to the ending the Zionism will continue to increase. The trend is these people are acquiring more effective arms, better training and they are becoming more determined. This problem isn't going away no matter how much Israel tries to ignore it.

BTW, Pointing this out isn't selective, nor is it anti-Israel, in the same way that pointing out problems created by Apartheid was not anti-South African.

Personally I'm in favor of Canada increasing the level of immigration from both sides of this conflict. Part of the problem is too many people and not enough land. Another factor is that Israeli's fear that if they give up Zionsim, they will be overrun by non-Jews bent on their destruction. I suspect that fear is exaggerated, but Israelis should be confident that they can leave Israel if they have to and would be welcomed by countries like Canada. Canada and other nations should have special immigration policies to allow Israelis to emigrate easily. Most Israelis are well educated and would make a positive contribution to any country.

 

[earth_as_one]

Simple way to beat Israel? Stop fighting a war of violence.

But thanks to people who support Palestine bombing busses (even if they say they don't with a wink and a smile), Palestine is gonna keep being a hellhole.

You are confusing cause with effect.

The people displaced by Israel's creation and ongoing expansion, live have been living in hellholes since Israel's creation ( 1948 ). It took more than a decade (1964) of waiting for the UN to uphold international law and watching Israel take by force what used to be their homes and property, before some of these people gave up waiting/watching and began to take action. Today most Palestinians have come to the conclusion that they will have to fight for freedom, justice and dignity.

Israel never had any intention of ever allowing these people to have their own country. If they did, then that would have happened years ago.

The UN never had any intention of holding Israel to its word or forcing Israel to respect international law.

I'm surprised these people waited/watched so long with nothing to show for their patience but ever worsening conditions before they were able to figure out they had been shafted by Israel and the UN. I guess they are guilty of believing what they were told, just like many people here.

The only way these people will get freedom, justice and their dignity is by violently or non-violently fighting for it. I'm also convinced that these people need outside help, just as Israel gets plenty of outside help to oppress these people and commit injustices against them.

Neither Israel nor the UN will ever recognize their fundamental human rights in a real and meaningful way. I disagree with violence, but its reasonable to expect some of these people (a minority) will resort to violence because waiting and watching hasn't worked in over 60 years.

Despite media demonization of these people, most of these people have never committed a single act of violence. Far more of them resort to non-violent than violent resistance. As Israel continues to take their land, restrict their freedom, impose cruel injustices and humiliate them, the outside world continues ignores their condition. Shame on us.

All these people want is freedom, justice and dignity. Shouldn't everyone have these things?

 

[Just the Facts]

If this was your parent's experience, then how were they able to leave? Seems to me they must have had choices most people displaced by Israel's creation/expansion do not.

If you consider being shipped to "relocation camps" in Siberia in cattle cars where many died "leaving" and "having choices", then yes, they left and had choices. My parents were amont the lucky few that survived. Many of my Uncles to be and grandparents did not. Sorry, I don't see that as much of a choice. Still, they let go of their anger. They don't harbour eternal bitter resentment, because they know no good would come of it.

I'm sure most if not all of these displaced people would like to be citizens of a country, but no country is willing to accept them. They would like to form their own country, but unfortunately their "country" doesn't exist and probably never will.

If they would stop with the terrorism, they would have a country. International support for a Palestinian state is almost unanimous. They don't want a state, they want Israel. That's the main problem.

Land which was set aside for the creation of a Palestinian state has been invaded and occupied by Israel.

I'm pretty sure it's Israel that was invaded. The land they occupied was Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian, not Palestinian. I agree that "Palestinians" are a de facto peoples and should have a homeland, but lets not re-write history. There was no such thing as a Palestinian as we know the term today, in 1948.

Over the last 60 years, Israel keeps annexing more and more of it. Palestinians won't find out about how much land they will eventually get for their country... if any... until after Israel has finished annexing the parts it wants. Until then, Israel continues to raze their homes, annex their land and build more Jewish only colonies.

They did the same in Gaza. They're gone now. No borders are permanent. If the will of the Palestinian people was to negotiate a genuine and lasting peace with Israel, it would happen. Israel has given up land for peace numerous times. Only they never seem to get the peace that was promised.

How does one "get on with their life" when you are forced to live like a prisoner?

As I said before and Zzach reinforced, by laying down their arms and negotiating in genuine good faith for a lasting peace. Walls can be moved or torn down altogether.

Z, international law is clear on the issue of refugees and their descendants right of return. If Israel can't abide by its international obligations, international law and the conditions it agreed to when it was recognized by the UN then it should withdraw from the UN.

The right of return would be certain death for Israel. This is a fact not shied away from by the Palestinain leadership. No state should be expected to commit suicide.

Until this issue is resolved, Israel will never have peace and the number of people committed to the ending the Zionism will continue to increase. The trend is these people are acquiring more effective arms, better training and they are becoming more determined. This problem isn't going away no matter how much Israel tries to ignore it.

I fear you're right. Take an objective look at what Israel is facing, according even to yourself. They grant the right of return and face certain extinction just by virtue of demographics, or they can hold firm and face eternal war. How do we end this? I'm afraid the only solution, as unfair as it may be to certain individuals who were displaced and will need to relocate to Palestine...or wherever, is for the Palestinains to give up on their demand for right of return and recognize Israel. In return, I know I for one, would be fully behind Israel abanding the rest of the west bank.

Ultimately, that is the only solution. Ultimately, it is more than fair to Palestinian Arabs collectively. You have to take into account Jordan when calculating the division of land between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Israel is a tiny proportion of the Mandate of Palestine. Don't forget, before the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing, it was ALL slated to be a Jewish homeland. The Jews ended up with what, just around 17% or so of Palestine. Judging by Arab / Jew population figures, that should be no cause for eternal war.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the solution for the misery of Palestinain Arabs, it to lay down their arms and get on with life.

 

[earth_as_one]

If you consider being shipped to "relocation camps" in Siberia in cattle cars where many died "leaving" and "having choices", then yes, they left and had choices. My parents were amont the lucky few that survived. Many of my Uncles to be and grandparents did not. Sorry, I don't see that as much of a choice. Still, they let go of their anger. They don't harbour eternal bitter resentment, because they know no good would come of it.



If they would stop with the terrorism, they would have a country. International support for a Palestinian state is almost unanimous. They don't want a state, they want Israel. That's the main problem.



I'm pretty sure it's Israel that was invaded. The land they occupied was Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian, not Palestinian. I agree that "Palestinians" are a de facto peoples and should have a homeland, but lets not re-write history. There was no such thing as a Palestinian as we know the term today, in 1948.



They did the same in Gaza. They're gone now. No borders are permanent. If the will of the Palestinian people was to negotiate a genuine and lasting peace with Israel, it would happen. Israel has given up land for peace numerous times. Only they never seem to get the peace that was promised.



As I said before and Zzach reinforced, by laying down their arms and negotiating in genuine good faith for a lasting peace. Walls can be moved or torn down altogether.



The right of return would be certain death for Israel. This is a fact not shied away from by the Palestinain leadership. No state should be expected to commit suicide.



I fear you're right. Take an objective look at what Israel is facing, according even to yourself. They grant the right of return and face certain extinction just by virtue of demographics, or they can hold firm and face eternal war. How do we end this? I'm afraid the only solution, as unfair as it may be to certain individuals who were displaced and will need to relocate to Palestine...or wherever, is for the Palestinains to give up on their demand for right of return and recognize Israel. In return, I know I for one, would be fully behind Israel abanding the rest of the west bank.

Ultimately, that is the only solution. Ultimately, it is more than fair to Palestinian Arabs collectively. You have to take into account Jordan when calculating the division of land between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Israel is a tiny proportion of the Mandate of Palestine. Don't forget, before the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing, it was ALL slated to be a Jewish homeland. The Jews ended up with what, just around 17% or so of Palestine. Judging by Arab / Jew population figures, that should be no cause for eternal war.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the solution for the misery of Palestinain Arabs, it to lay down their arms and get on with life.

Thankfully the suffering your relatives endured has ended. For these people it continues. They are still stuck in their prisons.

The only fair way to acquire land is by mutual agreement. The people involved must agree and some form of compensation is exchanged.

When force is used to take someone's property without compensation, that's theft any way you try to spin it. Even children know theft is wrong. Your argument could be used to justify armed robbery.

"Yes your honor, I did use force to seize millions of dollars that didn't belong to me, but it was just sitting there and it didn't have anyone's name on it. Although I did give some back to a few people, but I'm keeping the rest." Think that defense would fly in court?

When you steal someone's past, present and future, you can bet you will have a fight on your hands.

Also a little research into the "deals" Israeli offered to Palestinians finds all kinds of ripoffs like this:

...All previous Israeli and U.S. proposals concerning compensated land have referred to land near the Gaza Strip in exchange for valuable real estate in the West Bank. In addition to being desert areas, the lands being offered near the Gaza Strip are currently being used by Israel to dump toxic waste. Obviously, we cannot accept trading prime agricultural and development land for toxic waste dumps...

http://www.fmep.org/reports/vol11/no1/06-palestinian_response.html

The Israelis have encroached on the West bank from all sides, punched holes in it and sliced it up with roadways and walls. In compensation, the people who stayed are offered toxic waste dumps and desert for arable land and aquifiers and the people who were shown Israel's borders can't return home. I'm sure pro-Israeli people think that's fair.

If the Israelis kept the Sinai, that would have only sped up what appears to be the inevitable.

Moderates within Palestine proposed this in June 2006

..."The crisis in Lebanon provides a historic opportunity to achieve what has seemed impossible," Scowcroft wrote. "Now, perhaps more than ever, we have an opportunity to achieve a comprehensive resolution of the entire 58-year-old tragedy" of Israel against its Arab neighbors. And the heart of Scowcroft's "comprehensive resolution" is much the same plan that the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority was ready to propose in June:

A Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, with minor rectifications agreed upon between Palestine and Israel.
Egypt and Saudi Arabia working with the Palestinian Authority to put together a Palestinian government along the lines of the 18-point agreement reached between Hamas and Fatah prisoners in Israeli jails in June. This government would negotiate for the Authority.
Jerusalem as the shared capital of Israel and Palestine.
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia unambiguously reconfirming his 2002 pledge that the Arab world is prepared to enter into full normal relations with Israel upon its withdrawal from the lands occupied in 1967.
​

With everything that's happened since, it's easy to forget that this is almost exactly the proposal that Hamas and Fatah leaders united around on June 24. Polls in early June showed upwards of 90% support for it in the West Bank and Gaza, even though it clearly implied acceptance of Israel as a permanently existing and permanently Jewish state.
The next day a splinter group of Hamas militants, apparently intent on scuttling the peace plan, kidnapped an Israeli soldier. That gave Israeli leaders the excuse they wanted to attack Gaza and destroy the new chance for peace. The well-known Israeli commentator Danny Rubenstein explained at the time how his own government saw things: "It is best that the Palestinians remain extremists because then no one will ask the government of Israel to negotiate with them. How do we ensure that the Palestinians remain radical? We simply strike at them, over and over."...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0801-21.htm

Seems to me that the warhawks on both sides drive the agenda.

In the longterm, Israel will loose this war. Israel must continually win to survive but need only loose once to disappear. Who knows, maybe 20 years from now, I'll be pointing out the atrocities committed against Jewish refugees from the former state of Israel, which is now a radioactive wasteland.

I always felt that religion and politics are a dangerous mix. Creating a Jewish State and then purifying it of non-Jews has been a huge mistake which has cost many lives and has become a global war.

If Israel had been secular, maybe all this war could have been avoided.

 

[Zzarchov]

You are confusing cause with effect.
<snip>
Today most Palestinians have come to the conclusion that they will have to fight for freedom, justice and dignity.

Cause and effect are for innanimate objects.

Palestians make a choice. As you said they came to a conclusion. If that is their decision to fight, they have to live with the consequences, aka, people fight back and the world around you turns into a hellhole. The same world your family lives in.

As for international law. Refugees get to come back, not their grandkids and great grandkids.

As for Israel "Purifying" itself of non-jews.

History disagrees with you, Muslims , Druze, Samaritans and Christians who chose to stay were never removed, and treated , all in all considering the region, amazingly well.

Those who CHOSE to leave (being offered rewards by neighbouring opposing governments) ended up being shafted...by those same governments who offered false promises (they offered the spoils they stole from their millenia old jewish settlements when they forcibley drove them out)

It may not be how you wish history had gone down. But it is, and for along time local governments bragged about how they drove all their jews out of their borders, back when they thought they would still beat Israel in the end. Its only once it became apparent that Israel was there to stay they rewrote history.

If not for the tremendous loss of human life I'd almost wish Israel would be this radioactive waste of which you speak.

Being a nuclear power, im sure the region will learn the hard way about M.A.D, when the middle east is uninhabited, and there are no Muslims, Jews , Samaritans or Druze in the middle east. Only western nations removing radioactive particles from oil, standing in a graveyard.

 

[earth_as_one]

You are misinformed Z. Most of what you believe about how Israel was created and why these people ended up as refugees has been proven incorrect by Israeli historians examining declassified Israeli government archives from this period.

The Zionist leaders who were responsible for creating Israel planned from the beginning to use force to ethnically cleanse Israel of non-Jews. That ethnic cleansing process was well under way by 1947 and was one of the causes of the 1948 war.

http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm
http://www.logosjournal.com/pappe.htm

http://www.peuplesmonde.com/article.php3?id_article=491

"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. 62 Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." pp. 131-132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky

Israeli government archives support Chomsky' assertions and what refugees themselves had been saying all along. Ethnic cleansing or transfer of non-Jews started before the 1948 war and included areas the UN reserved for a Palestinian state as well as areas the UN reserved for Israel.

The evidence from Israeli government archives is conclusive. These people were removed by force and by the threat of force. Only a small minority left voluntarily, mainly so they would avoid being in a war zone and had intentions of coming back to their homes. There is no evidence to support the myth that the majority of people fleeing the violence had any ulterior motives.

Regarding the right of descendants of refugees to return, international law is less clear. It basically comes down to statutes which can be interpreted more than one way and what is fair and just:

BBC

...Palestinian assertions of the right of return for themselves and their descendants are based both on a moral standpoint, claiming the refugees' rights to return to homes from which they have been displaced, and on a number of resolutions issued by the United Nations.


At the heart of these is General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 1948. It states that Palestinian "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date".

Israel's objections

Israel refuses to assume responsibility in any way for the refugee problem and is adamant that Palestinians and their descendants cannot return.

Many young Palestinians have lived all their lives in refugee camps

The former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak recently offered a token repatriation, allowing small scale "family reunifications" in the interests of peace.

But successive Israeli governments have ruled out the return of millions of Arabs to a country with a population of only six million, fearing that it would wipe out the Jewish majority which is supposed to safeguard Israel's future as the world's only Jewish state.
Our Middle East analyst Roger Hardy says even dovish Israelis see a mass repatriation as a demographic nightmare - Israel would quite simply cease to be the Jewish state it is today.

The Israelis have long called for the refugees to be absorbed in their Arab host countries, something those hosts - with the exception of Jordan - have refused to contemplate.
The United States appears to have sided with Israel by asking the Palestinian leadership to "waive" the right of return, although supporters of that right say it is inalienable to each individual refugee and not for Yasser Arafat and his negotiators to give up...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/issues/1099279.stm

Do you believe confining these people in refugee camps, not allowing them to leave and forcing them and their descendants to live in perpetuity on handouts is fair or just? Do you think that people living under these conditions will just accept that they and their descendants must forever suffer injustice, oppression and humiliation?

The longterm trend is these people are becoming more numerous, more prone to violence, better armed and organized. Support for their cause is growing around the world. Support for Israel's system of apartheid is declining...

Overtime, these trends will inevitably lead to Israel's destruction.

I agree that Israel would loose its identity if all these people returned home, but other solutions exist like compensation and an international effort to absorb these people.

The way I see it, Israel is only partly responsible for this problem. The nations which voted to create Israel as well as the nations which have fought wars with Israel helped create this problem and therefore share responsibility.

 

[Zzarchov]

See, you prove me right.

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date".


Notice how it says refugees, not "Children and Grandchildren born on foriegn soil whos homes are not and have never been in Israel".

Its there because thats International law.

Its the same reason when the Dutch Princess was born in Canada during WWII we granted the hospital plot the mother was in to the Netherlands so that the princess was born on Dutch soil.

Otherwise, refugee mother or not, she isn't dutch.


The Jordanians living in Camps are a moral problem, but they are a Jordanian one not an Israeli one.

You cannot return to where you have never been. And Despite the bitter taste in their mouth, international law that you preach is very clear.

 

[earth_as_one]

See, you prove me right.

....

I've researched this and I must admit, I can't find anything which gives children of refugees the same rights as their parents under international law. But that doesn't mean these people don't exist or that they have no rights. It would appear the nations which host these people are responsible for them.

Israel's atrocities are becoming historical.

That said, I doubt their legal status will change the way they feel about their situation and who is responsible. I wonder how many of these nationless people would be willing to fight Israel? I wonder if they might find
sponsors...

Israel's existance proves that people can return to a place they've never been. You just have to fight for it.

 

[Zzarchov]

Yes, how did that turn out for Israel?

So I don't get it, on the one had you say they have rights, then say they should fight and kill others?

If they fight, which they have been, they end up living in suffering. If you choose to kill people you deserve no sympathy when you end up dying.

That is the crux of humanity. Thats why "Those who live by sword, die by the sword" or a saying like it is in EVERY culture.

If they want to fight, they get to die. They go hand in hand.

 

[earth_as_one]

Fights don't have to be violent. MK.Ghandi led a fight through non-violence which resulted in India's independance. Martin Luther King fought for equal rights non-violently. As per the first post in this string, many of Israel's victims are fighting back through non-violent means.

Israel has shown that sometimes you can get away with ethnic cleansing and avoid being held accountable if you can deny your victims justice during their lifetime. I imagine that its also possible that one day Israel could be militarily defeated and Israelis denied justice during their lifetimes too.

It may be too late for the victims of Israel's 1947-48 ethnic cleansing campaign, but these people aren't Israel's only victims. Israel started another round of ethnic cleansing in 1967 which continues to this day.

Let me be clear. I would not want to see Israelis suffer like they have made others suffer. I also believe an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Obviously many of Israel's victims disagree with my viewpoint.

You said, he who live by the sword dies by the sword. That describes both sides of Israel's ongoing war with most of its neighbors and the people it made nationless. Even nations which have made peace with Israel cannot be relied on indefinitely.

If Egypt ever becomes a democracy, their leaders will have to consider how most Egyptians feel about Israel.

Jordan is a constitutional monarchy with limited democratic rights. Sooner or later, Palestinian refugees and descendants of Palestinian refugees will gain control of Jordan.

I am certain another battle is coming. The old way of fighting is obsolete. Israel's abortive ground invasion of Lebanon last summer proved that cheap man portable weapons can stop expensive tanks and attack helicopters. The people who want to use violence to fight Israel are busy stockpiling these weapons.

I doubt any nation would openly support hostilities against Israel. That would be suicide. But I can see Egypt and Jordan loosing control of territory adjacent to their borders with Israel just like Lebanon has.

Since Israel is unwilling to offer their victims fair compensation and justice, Israel faces a continuous fight with these people. Although no nation will openly admit to arming Israel's adversaries, they will continue to acquire modern man portable weaponry which can knock down steel re-inforced concrete walls and take out tanks and helicopters.

Its possible that one day Israel may achieve peace with its victims, but that's not where Israel is going. While Israel continues to deny justice and create new victims, they will have continuous war. That path leads inevitably to Israel's destruction. While Israel remains in a constant state of war, it must win or draw every battle just to survive, while Israel's adversaries only have to win once.