Your views on Russia?

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Though I don't agree with the annexation of Crimea, I can still understand the complexities of the situation. Prior to the annexation, protests in Kiev had gotten so far out of control that protesters were starting to occupy ministry headquarters while western politicians condemned the government for its use of force.

Now let's put this in perspective for a moment. Imagine downtown Washington DC in flames and protesters burning police cars and the Department of the Interior. Any objective viewer would conclude that the protesters, having taken control of a federal building of that importance, had reached the point of posing a genuine revolutionary threat to the survival of the state. Now imagine based on this reasonable assessment that congress declares a state of emergency and martial law and gives the military the authority to use lethal force to regain control of central government administrative offices.

Now imagine that the EU condemns this and that some members of the the European Parliament (think John Baird in Kiev's streets) come to visit Washington DC to show their support for these revolutionaries posing a genuine threat to the stability of the state and condemn the state's use of force against them as if they were just peaceful protesters. Add to that that Russia, the most powerful country in the world, has military bases stationed in Mexico and Cuba and has long expressed a certain aggressiveness towards Canada, and the revolutionaries want to join the EU which is essentially Russian-led for all intents and purposes.

Now imagine that Canada is militarily far more powerful than the US but not Russia and the EU, that New York State had long been a part of Canada before it later became a part of the United States, and most New Yorkers have long identified themselves as culturally Canadian. Now imagine that there are a few other pockets of ethnic Canadians living across parts of the northern US, that ethnic Americans have long treated ethnic Canadians in the US as second-class citizens, and as the political situation worsens, these ethnic Canadians start to worry for their safety and so start to organize to separate from the US to join Canada.

Canada, expressing concern for the rapidly deteriorating situation along its border and Russian and other European leaders cheering it on, decides to annex New York State after the state calls a quick referendum.

Now it may be that Canada would have long dreamed of retaking New York State and just saw this as their pretext to do so. Canada would most certainly be wrong to do this. But at the same, we'd need to understand the Canadian situation. Firstly, the US would essentially have been facing a rising revolution (and no, not just a minor protest but a violent revolution) in the streets of Washington DC that would have been falling out of control and that would already have spread like wildfire across the entire northern US along the US-Canada border with ethnic Canadians already organizing themselves militarily. European leaders would have come to Washington DC's streets to cheer the revolutionaries (and I'm sorry, but once they start burning police cars and federal buildings, they're not just protesters anymore), and the US president would already have sought refuge in Canada. In that context, while we could disagree with Canada's actions, we could also understand them. Canada would be wrong and would deserve universal condemnation. But at the same time, how could we ignore the will of New Yorkers? It still wouldn't be an excuse to illegally annex New York of course. And if the referendum was rushed, it could warrant at least another internationally-monitored referendum, and even then Canada would still have been wrong in annexing New York State even with the will of the New Yorkers themselves without the consent of the government in Washington DC.



So I'm not saying that it would have been right to annex New York State or that Canada would not have deserved universal condemnation in such a scenario. What I am saying though is that Russian and other European politicians and anti-Canadian revolutionaries in the streets of Washington DC would have provoked Canada into doing this. If I punch you just as you are about to punch me, that might constitute legitimate self defense. If I punch you after you've already punched me and started to walk away, that's assault since you no longer posed a threat to me at the time that I punched you, but you still would have to accept responsibility for having provoked me. In the same way, while we can certainly condemn Russia's actions, we cannot deny that we provoked Russia into that action, and so we too need to accept equal responsibility for the Russian annexation of Crimea.

So while we accept Russia's culpability, we need to acknowledge ours too. With that, let's not cast the first stone, accept that we messed up by provoking Russia into this action, and re-establish friendly relations with Russia.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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I'll just add. If revolutionaries were burning cars and occupying and burning government ministry buildings in Ottawa, I can guarantee you that Canada would have done the exact same thing the Ukrainian government had done in re-impose law and order through the use of lethal force. That governments were criticizing the Ukrainian government for the use of force against active revolutionaries taking over government headquarters made those governments look like fools. Any government with some sense would understand the gravity of the situation once revolutionaries start burning police cars and government ministry headquarters in the capital. We were fools to condemn the Ukrainian government in such a situation.

You and spilledthebeer should have a 'Verbose-Off!"

So what's your take on the Russian situation? The way I see it, the Ukrainian authorities had very legitimate reasons to use lethal force against the revolutionaries (which our media referred to as protesters) at the time. We would have done the same thing under the circumstances.
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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My take on Russia?

Delta, a Ukraine-born former soldier in the Israel Defense Forces, spoke to JTA Thursday on condition of anonymity. He explained how he came to use combat skills he acquired in the Shu’alei Shimshon reconnaissance battalion of the Givati infantry brigade to rise through the ranks of Kiev’s street fighters. He has headed a force of 40 men and women — including several fellow IDF veterans — in violent clashes with government forces.

The Blue Helmets comprise 35 men and women who are not Jewish, and who are led by five ex-IDF soldiers, says Delta, an Orthodox Jew in his late 30s who regularly prays at Azman’s Brodsky Synagogue. He declined to speak about his private life

As platoon leader, Delta says he takes orders from activists connected to Svoboda, an ultra-nationalist party that has been frequently accused of anti-Semitism and whose members have been said to have had key positions in organizing the opposition protests.

“I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.”

The commanding position of Svoboda in the revolution is no secret, according to Ariel Cohen, a senior research fellow at the Washington D.C.-based Heritage Foundation think tank.
https://www.haaretz.com/ex-idf-soldier-fought-on-kiev-streets-1.5327651

Never Forget: Obama Put Neo-Nazis in Power in the Ukraine, Who’s Now Arming North Korea


https://thefreethoughtproject.com/neonazis-ukraine-arming-north-korea/
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Not nazis that's for sure.


Canada Supports Fascism In Ukraine

A “shadow government”, funded by the West, including Canada, triggered violent protests, the massacre at Odessa, and the on-going slaughters to this day, as Kiev tries to conquer all of Ukraine at the behest of the West and its agencies, including International Finance Institutions (IFIs) such as the IMF.

Suppressed evidence shouts that the Kiev junta’s unapologetic core is Nazi. The following is a list of neo-Nazi politicians, their Nazi affiliations, and the key positions they control in the junta government:
https://unpublishedottawa.com/letter/15143/republican-canada-supports-fascism-ukraine
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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85% Russian people.
Pretty obvious what they want.
Notice how there is no violent revolution in Crimea these days ?

The conflict I find within myself in all of this is that yes, Russia was wrong in annexing Crimea without the consent of Kiev, and yet Canada and other countries are guilty of having provoked Russia, and however illegal the referendum was, the people still voted to join Russia. How do we go against that? At most, we could express concern that the referendum was rushed and call for an internationally-monitored take 2, but what do we do if they vote to stay with Russia?

Russia was wrong in what it did, but we did provoke it and the people voted to join it. Unless we can see a way out of that impasse, it would seem to me that maybe it's time to re-establish friendly relations with Russia.
 

bill barilko

Senate Member
Mar 4, 2009
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Vancouver-by-the-Sea
....Russia was wrong in what it did, but we did provoke it and the people voted to join it. Unless we can see a way out of that impasse, it would seem to me that maybe it's time to re-establish friendly relations with Russia.
I'm not disagreeing with you but remember here in Canada we always have to consider the Oh-So-Fragile feelings of the Crybaby Bohunks who's families came here from Ukraine so long ago (like mine).

Any suggestion that Ukraine-one of the most corrupt places on earth-is getting the shitty end of the stick means crying and blubbering of brobdingnagian proportions-lamentations that can only be assuaged by the generous application of western largesse.

Keywords-Tymoshenko crooked jailbird bitch, Poroshenko chocolate bloodsucker, and So Many More.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
7,300
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I'm not disagreeing with you but remember here in Canada we always have to consider the Oh-So-Fragile feelings of the Crybaby Bohunks who's families came here from Ukraine so long ago (like mine).

Any suggestion that Ukraine-one of the most corrupt places on earth-is getting the shitty end of the stick means crying and blubbering of brobdingnagian proportions-lamentations that can only be assuaged by the generous application of western largesse.

Keywords-Tymoshenko crooked jailbird bitch, Poroshenko chocolate bloodsucker, and So Many More.

I guess I could see one possible solution. Canada re-establish free trade with Russia on the grounds that the sanctions hurt ordinary Russians while continuing to maintain the rightful position that Russia was still wrong in annexing Crimea. It might also help if Canada acknowledge that Canada and other countries did provoke Russia too. Still doesn't excuse Russia, but it definitely makes us question if we're the ones who should be throwing the stones.
 

justlooking

Council Member
May 19, 2017
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The conflict I find within myself in all of this is that yes, Russia was wrong in annexing Crimea without the consent of Kiev,


Uhh, no.





and yet Canada and other countries are guilty of having provoked Russia,


This is true, but mostly Germany and the US.





and however illegal the referendum was, the people still voted to join Russia. How do we go against that?


Didn't you know, all votes are rigged unless the left wins.



At most, we could express concern that the referendum was rushed and call for an internationally-monitored take 2, but what do we do if they vote to stay with Russia?


Crimea has voted several times to either stay with Russia or be completely independent.




Russia was wrong in what it did, but we did provoke it and the people voted to join it. Unless we can see a way out of that impasse, it would seem to me that maybe it's time to re-establish friendly relations with Russia.


Sometimes I wonder if you ever actually read what others post. Oh well, I will try again anyway.




Crimea became part of the Russian Empire in 1780something. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
It became part of the Soviet Union as its own Republic in 1922. Never part of Ukraine.


In 1954, Khrushchev, a Ukrainian himself, arranged for Crimea to be folded into Ukraine.
No vote, no referendum, no choice for the people.
After the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, doubts have been expressed - from the Russian side by all means, but even by Western historians (Richard Sakwa, "Frontline Ukraine. Crisis In the Borderlands", 2015) - about the very legitimacy of the 1954 transition of Crimea to Ukraine; in the critics' view the transition contradicted even the Soviet law.


An unconstitutional move, done as Khrushchev's gift to himself after getting power after Stalin died.



In 1991, Crimea voted to become it's own Soviet Republic again.
Since the Soviet Union was falling apart, the Crimean legislature declared independence in 1992.
Never able to confirm it because of opposition from Kiev.




See, Crimea was never part of Ukraine, except for a 35 year unconstitutional gift from a Ukrainian Soviet leader.


So the claim from the US and EU that Crimea is part of Ukraine is just total bullshit, swallowed by the

people in the West resulting from their massive ignorance of history.


All you hesitation about Russia this and Russia that is a reflection of you swallowing the same bullshit.


Don't.
Go.
Read.
Even Wikipedia can't hide the simple fact that Crimea is not Ukraine. It is part of Russia.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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These forms have been infiltrated by Russian bloggers tryimg to seed division, confusion , uncertainty with their lies.

Good to have a thread like this to shine a light on who our Russian may be.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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OK let's see if I have this right

Russians=Black Hats

Everyone Else=White Hats

is that right?

Pretty much. Whenever there is a disaster in the World, it's the Western powers that come to their aid. Russia? Seeding the Third Word with Kalashnikovs and RPGs is what passees for"aid". A country that can kill 20 million of their own citizens in a couple of decades is hardly what we need in charge.
 
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justlooking

Council Member
May 19, 2017
1,312
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These forms have been infiltrated by Russian bloggers tryimg to seed division, confusion , uncertainty with their lies.

Good to have a thread like this to shine a light on who our Russian may be.


Yes, I understand.


Facts are difficult for you.


Truth is hurtful.


Reason is racist.