Your Child's Religion Is My Business Too

[Dexter Sinister]

I am spiritual and I don't believe in a deity, and that's what I taught my children. Karrie, I don't question your right to expose your child, at whatever age, to the things you believe to be true, even though in this context, as you know, I think they're false (let me talk to the kid at 16 though...), why do you question my rights in what I expose my children to? I tried to teach my children to do their own thinking, not to accept pronouncements from authority, not even mine, without analysis, and I also tried to teach them how to do the analysis, because the school system was doing a terrible job of it. It seemed to me to be teaching what to think, not how to think. That created some pretty hard times in their adolescence because in their youthful arrogance (I remember my own well) they thought they understood things they didn't and they challenged almost everything I said, but as a true skeptic I welcomed that and we all learned a lot, about each other and the world, and I consider it all worthwhile when I look at who they are now in their mid twenties. And they both arrived at the atheist position from a formerly religious position (inculcated by the school system and their peers) on their own. And just in case you're wondering about my influence, I should tell you that I'm an atheist, their mother is not, and they heard from both of us about equally on this.

 

[karrie]

the thread is about quebec curriculum... how can anyone say they agree with or disagree with it if they haven't read up on it?

 

[talloola]

the thread is about quebec curriculum... how can anyone say they agree with or disagree with it if they haven't read up on it?

that got away from me along the way, I drifted into my own thoughts, and forgot all about quebec, and
didn't read up on it, the thread drifted away and I drifted with it, seems quite common on this forum.

 

[karrie]

I am spiritual and I don't believe in a deity, and that's what I taught my children. I don't question your right to expose your child, at whatever age, to the things you believe to be true, even though in this context, as you know, I think they're false (let me talk to the kid at 16 though...), why do you question my rights in what I expose my children to? I tried to teach my children to do their own thinking, not to accept pronouncements from authority, not even mine, without analysis, and I also tried to teach them how to do the analysis, because the school system was doing a terrible job of it. It seemed to me to be teaching what to think, not how to think. That created some pretty hard times in their adolescence because in their youthful arrogance (I remember my own well) they thought they understood things they didn't and they challenged almost everything I said, but we all learned a lot, about each other and the world, and I consider it all worthwhile when I look at who they are now in their mid twenties.

I don't question your right to expose your children to anything Dex. What I question is the right of the government to force your kids to sit, at grade one, and listen to what Catholicism is about, what Islam is about, and what Judaeism is about.

I'll repeat what I said earlier... when the government decides it knows more than you do about what your child should be exposed to in terms of religious teachings, we just as easily end up with residential schools, as we do secular schools.

I may be religious, but, I do value and believe in the importance of a secular public school system.

that got away from me along the way, I drifted into my own thoughts, and forgot all about quebec, and
didn't read up on it, the thread drifted away and I drifted with it, seems quite common on this forum.

Okay, well I can't really defend the rights of secular parents to have secular school sytems if they're drifting off into irrelevant territory... lol. Feel free to read the links, read what Q's school system is like, and let me know ifd you think religion courses as mandatory grade one curriculum are what you see as 'right'.

(let me talk to the kid at 16 though...), why do you question my rights in what I expose my children to?.

And here's where I'm going to double, TRIPLE even, emphasize this part, and beg you to reread it tomorrow in the context of what I've posted so far in this thread about the importance that I never get to be the one who forces what your grade oner HAS to learn. The importance that the parent get to teach what they think is valuable. And the importance that some lessons be left to a relevant age, and a relevant context.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What I question is the right of the government to force your kids to sit, at grade one, and listen to what Catholicism is about, what Islam is about, and what Judaeism is about.

I don't understand why they shouldn't hear that, at a level appropriate to their comprehension. By that age they'll have heard from you about your beliefs, why shouldn't they hear about others?

 

[karrie]

I don't understand why they shouldn't hear that, at a level appropriate to their comprehension. By that age they'll have heard from you about your beliefs, why shouldn't they hear about others?

what's a level appropriate to comprehension?

See, these are the questions I'm asking, and all I'm getting is a bunch of defensive bull**** about how I'm trying to decide what everyone else's kids learn.

All I have said is that in the name of secularism the government ought to respect that fact that some parents don't want their grade one kids taught about the idea of all powerful beings. That making these courses mandatory infringes on the rights of parents avoiding that influence... so I guess in the end we're in agreement... at an appropriate age, teach secular kids about a deity.... now... what's the appropriate age, and who decides it?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

And here's where I'm going to double, TRIPLE even, emphasize this part, and beg you to reread it tomorrow in the context of what I've posted so far in this thread about the importance that I never get to be the one who forces what your grade oner HAS to learn. The importance that the parent get to teach what they think is valuable. And the importance that some lessons be left to a relevant age, and a relevant context.

What if what the parents have to teach is demonstrably nonsense? There are Christian schools in the city I live in that teach creationism as the truth, and the parents support that because they believe it too. Those schools should not be accredited, students from them should not be considered to have passed grade 12 and be qualified for university, but they are.

 

[karrie]

What if what the parents have to teach is demonstrably nonsense? There are Christian schools in the city I live in that teach creationism as the truth, and the parents support that because they believe it too. Those schools should not be accredited, students from them should not be considered to have passed grade 12 and be qualified for university, but they are.

So in turn they should get the opportunity to teach your kids at grade one level that most people believe in a God, and why they believe in a God?

I'll repeat here that I'm not arguing the abolishment of high grade level courses on comparative religion, but rather tackling the OP which, in asserting that your child's religion is his business, asserts that he has the right at grade one to mandatorily teach your kids about omniscient beings and afterlifes.

 

[TenPenny]

I don't think a grade oner should be taught religion, I think it should be taught at the junior high/high
school level. I know nothing about quebec teachings of religion, haven't a clue.
I just agree with Dex, that knowing about religion or anything for that matter is
a good thing.

I don't think it's the place of the school system to 'teach religion'. However, I think it is the place of the school system to teach ABOUT religion.

You can't try to pretend religions don't exist, and completely avoid the subject.

So in turn they should get the opportunity to teach your kids at grade one level that most people believe in a God, and why they believe in a God?

Not 'most', and not 'why'.

 

[s_lone]

OK this drastically needs to be posted.

The link, in English, to Quebec's curriculum concerning the Ethics and Religious Culture program.

https://www7.mels.gouv.qc.ca/DC/ECR/index_en.php

 

[Machjo]

OK this drastically needs to be posted.

The link, in English, to Quebec's curriculum concerning the Ethics and Religious Culture program.

https://www7.mels.gouv.qc.ca/DC/ECR/index_en.php

Very reasonable. I'd like someone to quote from that page what it is that they disagree with.

 

[CDNBear]

OK this drastically needs to be posted.

The link, in English, to Quebec's curriculum concerning the Ethics and Religious Culture program.

https://www7.mels.gouv.qc.ca/DC/ECR/index_en.php

Seems quite reasonable and responsible to me.

Thanx for posting that btw.

 

[s_lone]

It's worth reading the part of the curriculum which deals with religion in the first cycle of elementary school (grade one to four).

This is what is expected from the student at the end of grade 3.

By the end of Cycle One, students are able to name different religious celebrations-celebrations or rituals associated with birth. They can recognize some forms of religious expression related to a celebration. They can understand that there are different ways of celebrating. They can associate a celebration with a religious tradition. They can relate the celebration to certain short stories and key figures. They can associate forms of religious expression with elements in their immediate environment. Through simple situations, they can name behaviours that are appropriate with regard to diversity. They are able to name what they have learned regarding forms of religious expression.

 

[Machjo]

It's worth reading the part of the curriculum which deals with religion in the first cycle of elementary school (grade one to four).

This is what is expected from the student at the end of grade 3.

By the end of Cycle One, students are able to name different religious celebrations-celebrations or rituals associated with birth. They can recognize some forms of religious expression related to a celebration. They can understand that there are different ways of celebrating. They can associate a celebration with a religious tradition. They can relate the celebration to certain short stories and key figures. They can associate forms of religious expression with elements in their immediate environment. Through simple situations, they can name behaviours that are appropriate with regard to diversity. They are able to name what they have learned regarding forms of religious expression.

Teach them to understand the world around them? Sacrilege!:lol:

 

[s_lone]

What seems positive about what I just posted is the focus put on the celebratory nature of religion. Even atheists will be concerned by this because we tend to all celebrate Xmas, Easter, which are Christian celebrations in the end (all of us with a Christian heritage of course). Students are encouraged to talk about their own family celebrations.

From what I read, the elementary school program focuses on catholic and protestant manifestations of religion because these are the ones that shaped Quebec society the most significantly. The contributions of Judaism and Native spirituality are also discussed.

 

[Machjo]

What seems positive about what I just posted is the focus put on the celebratory nature of religion. Even atheists will be concerned by this because we tend to all celebrate Xmas, Easter, which are Christian celebrations in the end.

From what I read, the elementary school program focuses on catholic and protestant manifestations of religion because these are the ones that shaped Quebec society the most significantly. The contributions of Judaism and Native spirituality are also discussed.

From the first link, I get the impression other religions are discussed too. The focus on the Christian Faith is reasonable seeing that that is the predominant religion in Quebec after all. We find the same in the British religious curriculum.

If I'd move to Iraq, I'd think it quite reasonable that any religious course there should focus on Islam while still teaching freedom of religion.

 

[gerryh]

It doesn't matter if it all sounds reasonable or not. It's just one more example of the government sticking thier nose into the moral and ethical upbringing of our children. It is not the schools place to teach this, it is a parents responsibility. Just because there maybe a few parents that don't do their job doesn't mean the government through the schools should impose their ideas and ideals on our chidren.

 

[CDNBear]

It doesn't matter if it all sounds reasonable or not. It's just one more example of the government sticking thier nose into the moral and ethical upbringing of our children. It is not the schools place to teach this, it is a parents responsibility.

I agree. Now if you can get them to do their job, there won't be a need for this type of program. They don't, there is. That's all.

Just because there maybe a few parents that don't do their job doesn't mean the government through the schools should impose their ideas and ideals on our chidren.

You obviously haven't been paying attention, nor did you read what s_lone posted.

Or perhaps you did and you read it in a way to justify your contempt.

 

[gerryh]

I've read it and I stand by how I feel about it. I'm just glad that noneof my family lives in Quebec.

 

[CDNBear]

I've read it and I stand by how I feel about it.

I figured it was the latter example.

I'm just glad that noneof my family lives in Quebec.

I bet tons of fundamentalists do too.