Your Child's Religion Is My Business Too

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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Yep, that's what it says. I read that and though instantly that this is a reasonable and rational idea.

There is no bad influences in this program. Simply put, it's about understanding differences, so can can function and grow in a very multicultural society.

I'm having difficulty why the proponents of the multicult, have such a terrible time with this idea s_lone?

Here is an excerpt from an interesting philosopher called Ken Wilber who has much to say about multiculturalism. I think this little bit might shed some light on your interrogation. His term ''worldcentric'' must be understood in contrast to the term ''ethnocentric'', which means a worldcentric view focuses on our common humanity while ethnocentric views focus on cultural differences.

''The basic idea behind multiculturalism is to honour differences. But that can only be done under the protection of the worldcentric stance of universal pluralism. And thus, without demanding and fostering ways for people to develop and evolve to this higher stage (universal pluralism), we merely encourage them to act out their shallower engagements (my religion is the only right religion), and thus few people actually aspire to the worldcentric stance that alone allows protection.

Instead, every sort of retribalization, fragmentation, egocentric and ethnocentric shallowness-all those ''diversities'' are glorified as part of the decentered worldcentric stance, wheras they are exactly what prevent and sabotage that stance, and lead it by the hand into increasingly regressive engagements and the politics of narcissism, which, if it actually succeeds, will destroy the worldcentric stance that protected pluralism in the first place. And this in turn will open the door to actual oppression, etnocentric wars, imperialistic nightmares-we will lose all the liberation movements secured by the good news of the Enlightenement and its worldcentric tolerance.''


This is just a long way of saying that without encouraging and demanding that people follow the principles of universal pluralism, the model is likely to be attacked and destroyed by the proponents of ethnocentricism.

In other words, universal pluralism must be protected and encouraged.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Here is an excerpt from an interesting philosopher called Ken Wilber who has much to say about multiculturalism. I think this little bit might shed some light on your interrogation. His term ''worldcentric'' must be understood in contrast to the term ''ethnocentric'', which means a worldcentric view focuses on our common humanity while ethnocentric views focus on cultural differences.

''The basic idea behind multiculturalism is to honour differences. But that can only be done under the protection of the worldcentric stance of universal pluralism. And thus, without demanding and fostering ways for people to develop and evolve to this higher stage (universal pluralism), we merely encourage them to act out their shallower engagements (my religion is the only right religion), and thus few people actually aspire to the worldcentric stance that alone allows protection.

Instead, every sort of retribalization, fragmentation, egocentric and ethnocentric shallowness-all those ''diversities'' are glorified as part of the decentered worldcentric stance, wheras they are exactly what prevent and sabotage that stance, and lead it by the hand into increasingly regressive engagements and the politics of narcissism, which, if it actually succeeds, will destroy the worldcentric stance that protected pluralism in the first place. And this in turn will open the door to actual oppression, etnocentric wars, imperialistic nightmares-we will lose all the liberation movements secured by the good news of the Enlightenement and its worldcentric tolerance.''


This is just a long way of saying that without encouraging and demanding that people follow the principles of universal pluralism, the model is likely to be attacked and destroyed by the proponents of ethnocentricism.

In other words, universal pluralism must be protected and encouraged.
Excellent post s_lone, I couldn't agree more.

And I'm not a huge fan of multiculturalism. Go figure. But I am a huge fan of bridging divides and ending centuries of religious conflict.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Essentially, I can't see a community functioning without a common cultural bond. Sure we can have multiculturalism, a long as there is a common culture everyone knows, even if it's only a common second culture. In some respects, I see courses such as the one in Quebec as initial attempts at laing the foundations of such a future common 'auxiliary' or second culture.

You can't have multiculturalism in a vacuum. To take a clearer albeit more extreme example, imagine if all members of the UN used their own languages at the meetings. It would be chaos. As a result, the UN has agreed to six. And it's still chaos. Just as people speaking different languages need a common language, even if only second language, to function as a cohesive group, so the same applies with various cultural groups. Sure they could each have their own culture, but there must be a shared culture complementing that too, otherwise it's chaos.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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My kids get all this in their social studies classes.... the dominant language, the geography, the culture, and the celebrations, of assorted countries, are covered in elementary school. The name of the religion and what it means in terms of cultural expression are covered. The fact their culture makes up part of our country is covered. It's basic social class.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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My kids get all this in their social studies classes.... the dominant language, the geography, the culture, and the celebrations, of assorted countries, are covered in elementary school. The name of the religion and what it means in terms of cultural expression are covered. The fact their culture makes up part of our country is covered. It's basic social class.
I'd be interested in seeing that curriculum layout. Do you have a link?
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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first result.... http://education.alberta.ca/media/456082/sockto3.pdf

from that link....
Social studies provides opportunities for students
to develop the attitudes, skills and knowledge that
will enable them to become engaged, active,
informed and responsible citizens. Recognition
and respect for individual and collective identity is
essential in a pluralistic and democratic society.
Social studies helps students develop their sense
of self and community, encouraging them to
affirm their place as citizens in an inclusive,
democratic society.
 

CDNBear

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first result.... http://education.alberta.ca/media/456082/sockto3.pdf

from that link....
Social studies provides opportunities for students
to develop the attitudes, skills and knowledge that
will enable them to become engaged, active,
informed and responsible citizens. Recognition
and respect for individual and collective identity is
essential in a pluralistic and democratic society.
Social studies helps students develop their sense
of self and community, encouraging them to
affirm their place as citizens in an inclusive,
democratic society.
Yep, that's social studies alright. Bland, shallow and sterile. Simply put, the bare minimum. It's been in place for years, with a little polishing once in a while.

What s-lone has provided us with, is simply a far more in-depth social studies course, that will likely achieve more of an understanding of other religions, as well as aspects of identity, citizenship (Which is the basis of social studies), and so on.

I notice that there is no comparative study in religion in that course outline Karrie. I wonder why.

Now lets take a look at the outcome of all those years of that policy of sterility in social studies, shall we?

Thanx for the link by the way.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Excellent post s_lone, I couldn't agree more.

And I'm not a huge fan of multiculturalism. Go figure. But I am a huge fan of bridging divides and ending centuries of religious conflict.
Yeah. Once that is settled, then perhaps we can work on the stupidity of conflicting politics. :D
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Yep, that's social studies alright. Bland, shallow and sterile. Simply put, the bare minimum. It's been in place for years, with a little polishing once in a while.

What s-lone has provided us with, is simply a far more in-depth social studies course, that will likely achieve more of an understanding of other religions, as well as aspects of identity, citizenship (Which is the basis of social studies), and so on.

I notice that there is no comparative study in religion in that course outline Karrie. I wonder why.

Now lets take a look at the outcome of all those years of that policy of sterility in social studies, shall we?

Thanx for the link by the way.

Because Alberta's curriculum is secular. What exactly is it missing in comparison to what you were all carrying on about wanting to see? It seems to have it all there, aside from delving into the detailed mythologies of the religions.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Because Alberta's curriculum is secular.
Is the Catholic school board's?

Is discussing religion nonsecular?

Sounds to me, like some people are afraid their religion won't stand up to be scrutinized by children, once they've been given the tools to think outside the book.

What exactly is it missing in comparison to what you were all carrying on about wanting to see? It seems to have it all there, aside from delving into the detailed mythologies of the religions.
Way to answer your own question...:lol:

"carrying on about"... Hmmm, a little negative application to opposing thoughts to stifle conversation? I don't see anyone "carrying on".
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Is the Catholic school board's?

Is discussing religion nonsecular?

Sounds to me, like some people are afraid their religion won't stand up to be scrutinized by children, once they've been given the tools to think outside the book.

Way to answer your own question...:lol:

"carrying on about"... Hmmm, a little negative application to opposing thoughts to stifle conversation? I don't see anyone "carrying on".

I haven't once argued this course from the perspective of my religion being challenged Bear. I've only ever said that it sounds like something secular families shouldn't have to put up with. I stand by that.

As for curriculum, Catholic school has religion classes, other than that they follow Alberta's curriculum.
 

CDNBear

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I haven't once argued this course from the perspective of my religion being challenged Bear. I've only ever said that it sounds like something secular families shouldn't have to put up with. I stand by that.
Stand by what? That kids shouldn't be tought about the real world they face after school? The reality that people will view them as lower life forms because they aren't "y" or believe in "x"?

Ya, the current "social studies" class has done wonders.

As for curriculum, Catholic school has religion classes, other than that they follow Alberta's curriculum.
I wonder how objective that religion class is, lol.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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What I'm seeing here is that in the end, I have a bunch of non-religious people arguing with me that their kids ought to be taught religious thinking in grade school, while I'm trying to point out that the mythology aspect of religion ought to be left out until they are older and less impressionable. This has got to be the most back-asswards argtument I've ever had on here. I'll never understand people. lol.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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What I'm seeing here is that in the end, I have a bunch of non-religious people arguing with me that their kids ought to be taught religious thinking in grade school, while I'm trying to point out that the mythology aspect of religion ought to be left out until they are older and less impressionable. This has got to be the most back-asswards argtument I've ever had on here. I'll never understand people. lol.
1, I'm not "non religious".
2, The course is not about teaching children religion.
3, The course outline is progressive.
4, It's only "back-assward" because some people obviously haven't read the course outline, or read it in such a way that it suits them.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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What I'm seeing here is that in the end, I have a bunch of non-religious people arguing with me that their kids ought to be taught religious thinking in grade school, while I'm trying to point out that the mythology aspect of religion ought to be left out until they are older and less impressionable. This has got to be the most back-asswards argtument I've ever had on here. I'll never understand people. lol.

You say the mythology aspect of religion ought to be left out until they are older and less impressionable yet you send your own children to religious schools where they will get the mythology aspect of religion?

Please clarify what you mean because for now, I don't see how that makes sense.

However I do understand your point that parents who believe in a purely secular way of life should have the right to opt out of a course which deals with religion. But I don't agree with you.

The way I understand it, the course is clearly not designed to influence children into following one religion or another. It is simply designed to inform them, get them thinking, and opening them up to difference.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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1, I'm not "non religious".
2, The course is not about teaching children religion.
3, The course outline is progressive.
4, It's only "back-assward" because some people obviously haven't read the course outline, or read it in such a way that it suits them.

I've asked you to show me the differences... if you think I'm misreading or misinterpreting it, then find some way to explain to me where I've strayed beyond mocking my educational choices for my kids.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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The way I understand it, the course is clearly not designed to influence children into following one religion or another. It is simply designed to inform them, get them thinking, and opening them up to difference.
You aren't alone.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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You say the mythology aspect of religion ought to be left out until they are older and less impressionable yet you send your own children to religious schools where they will get the mythology aspect of religion?

Please clarify what you mean because for now, I don't see how that makes sense.

However I do understand your point that parents who believe in a purely secular way of life should have the right to opt out of a course which deals with religion. But I don't agree with you.

The way I understand it, the course is clearly not designed to influence children into following one religion or another. It is simply designed to inform them, get them thinking, and opening them up to difference.

The difference s_lone is choice. I live in a country where I am free to choose regarding religion. I value that, highly. And I think other parents ought to as well. I value that I can send my child to a Catholic school, but I will defend tooth and nail your right to get your child a secular education as well.
 

CDNBear

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I've asked you to show me the differences... if you think I'm misreading or misinterpreting it, then find some way to explain to me where I've strayed beyond mocking my educational choices for my kids.
I haven't mocked your choices. They're your own. I disagree with them, but they're your own. I also know you, so I have the benefit of knowing you aren't a fundamentalist idiot. Unfortunately, I don't know that about everyone raising kids today.

And how am I supposed to show you were you went astray. I don't know where or why you developed the idea this course was teaching kids about religion. It's teaching them that there is religion, and giving them the tools to think and be more tolerant, in an ever changing and multicultural world.

I don't see the down side in that. If I was a devout religious type, I would though.