Wyoming Priest Denies Communion to Lesbian Activist Couple “Married” in Canada

[karrie]

Well... in that context, you are right...gays have it FAR worse than blacks. So, here is the problem. A person has grown up in the catholic church. They believe. They follow. They believe what they were told about the catholic church being the only true church. But then, as they discover their sexual identity, they realize that they are gay. They still have faith. But, they are gay. So, the church tells them, that is fine, you just cannot act on those feelings. So, as this person sits their being a good catholic on Sunday, they look around and see happy couples in love, but knows that he/she can never have that because to pursue that would make her a sinner, and an outcast of the church. The person is torn between their religion and their sexuality. Does god REALLY want this? Is this what god aims for? Should this person be denied love, passion, caring...the kind that they can get only from a life partner? Why would god want this? It makes no sense. We all seek love...we all want love.

Well, in MY VIEW, god would not want this though, but, I do respect the rights of churches to follow their beliefs. If someone chooses to follow that church blindly, well, I can't really comment on that. Blind faith is dangerous for a hist of reasons, and this is just one example.

And, I go back to what I was saying before. There are people who are going through all the rituals at catholic churches across the world who are murderers, adulterers, swindlers, stealers, and generally nasty people, and I have NEVER heard of any of these folks being denied access to any part of the proceedings in church. Am I wrong? If this is the case, does the catholic church feel that these folks are less the sinners than open gays?

actually, if you'd been reading the thread, you'd have heard of plenty of people who have been denied sacraments in the church for many reasons. I think perhaps you're picking which posts you choose to read? It may not make it to the media, but it happens. If a priest knows someone is in a state of committing sin (as the church defines it), unrepentent and unwilling to change, then they will be denied the sacrament of communion, the sacrament of marriage, and many people, every year, are denied the sacrament of ordination, for a host of reasons, one including predalictions to pedophilia.

 

[karrie]

But this is what I have been trying to argue. It isn't questioning god...it is questionging mans interpretations of the texts which are attributed to god. The fact that when these issues are brought up, representative, both official and non say that "this is the way it is and that is that" without even considering that their interpretations of the texts may be wrong, and it is causing damage within the church and in society.

rest assured snfu... there are members within the church who question the interpretations. There is a whole new generation rising up within the church who do not agree with current interpretation. And they push for change, they talk to their priests, even some priests I know are pushing for change in their own quiet way. But, it's up to the church. It's not up to people who have no connection to the church to say 'you must worship the way I say'. It's up to the church's membership to decide for themselves.

 

[karrie]

In this forum everyone but Christans go to hell. Christans just say, oops sorry, back to the heaven line they go.

*sigh* thanks for the lovely generalization. It's nice to know that's the message I send people.

 

[AndyF]

tracy:

Religion is more than an expression and isn't optional. Adopting it is not subject to democratic election. Open and private worship pays homage to our creator and honours Him and that is demanded of us as an obligation.

Works are nothing if done without worship scripture says.

AndyF

 

[hermanntrude]

Andy and Snfu, I have done some thinking. And I've visited the world thirty years from now. It was a learning experience! Here are those things I found that would most likely offend our sensibilities today:
- In the year 2037 cloning has been perfected and work on humans has been underway for years. Hope there is to allow all newborns to be cloned and have an alternate body available in the future. But the reality is that advances in cloning have allowed the developing world a niche in organ export. Large shipments of various essential human organs now enter North America every day, and given the longevity boom, moral constraints have ebbed.
- Churches have lost their tax free status and locals not wishing to see the buildings shut have allowed them to be sold to the commercial marketplace. Most are now nightclubs benefiting from the extra room dimension. Hedonism is the most common way of life now.
- In 2037 child porn has been mainstreamed and can be found on any newstand. Police and justice departments, discovering children and youth were increasingly the accused in most porn production cases, have caved. Many children now pay for their education using porn as their ticket.
- The longevity boom has made it impossible to offer easy access to government pensions and drug plans. Now it's routine to work to 80. In return for a loyal work force, the government has handed the food and drug administration over to private hands so that new gimmicky cures and treatments are fastpaced to market. There is a huge market in alternative drugs and therapies. The most common advertisement now on billboards is rejuvenation and lifestyle drug related. New Age spas are the most promising of growth companies.
-As mixed race marriages proliferate in the West, the children of such marriages are celebrating their status and now call themselves Athenians, the best of the old and the trendiest of the new. Reverse discrimination is the problem now. Strangely, as the West evolves the economic giants of the East, China and Japan, have not changed policy and see the West as pointless and decadent but still commercially important.

How's that? Or maybe I'll have to try harder to see 2037.

drama queen

 

[tamarin]

Drama queen? Nah, I just see it as being burdened with a mystic eye.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

rest assured snfu... there are members within the church who question the interpretations. There is a whole new generation rising up within the church who do not agree with current interpretation. And they push for change, they talk to their priests, even some priests I know are pushing for change in their own quiet way. But, it's up to the church. It's not up to people who have no connection to the church to say 'you must worship the way I say'. It's up to the church's membership to decide for themselves.

i thought it was up to god? i mean, doctrines are kinda set in stone and havent changed in forever, so i cant see why suddenly people would make the vatican change gods doctrines. i mean, i know im a new catholic, but not once have i gotten the impression the church was any sort of a democracy where the people vote on what we will or wont believe.

 

[s243a]

I think the church can change with the times but I don’t see the catholic church changing it’s stance on gay marriage any time soon. Although it’s members in the western world may support it I think the majority of the members in the catholic church are not from the western world. These place do not have the same view on gay marriage as the western world.

 

[karrie]

i thought it was up to god? i mean, doctrines are kinda set in stone and havent changed in forever, so i cant see why suddenly people would make the vatican change gods doctrines. i mean, i know im a new catholic, but not once have i gotten the impression the church was any sort of a democracy where the people vote on what we will or wont believe.

We wouldn't celebrate Christmas or Easter if the church weren't influenced by the unhappiness of those within it Maple. But, it is. It doesn't want to be, it likes to pretend it is unchangeable, but it changes, slowly but surely. As sanctus points out, its dogma has not essentially changed, but, all things come with time.

 

[sanctus]

I think the church can change with the times but I don’t see the catholic church changing it’s stance on gay marriage any time soon. Although it’s members in the western world may support it I think the majority of the members in the catholic church are not from the western world. These place do not have the same view on gay marriage as the western world.

It is unlikely that the Church will change its position on marriage. Again, we are talking about one of the Sacraments of the Church. In small matters practices and customs may change, but dogmas never. Matrimony, we believe, is a holy institution given to us by God. That being so, no amount of opinion polls or any sort of votes will cause the Church to suddenly drop its doctrines on the Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

[sanctus]

We wouldn't celebrate Christmas or Easter if the church weren't influenced by the unhappiness of those within it Maple. But, it is. It doesn't want to be, it likes to pretend it is unchangeable, but it changes, slowly but surely. As sanctus points out, its dogma has not essentially changed, but, all things come with time.

Christmas and Easter are not doctrines, however. These are customs. It is, as I just wrote in another post, unlikely the Church will ever accept a new defintion of matrimony based on the whims of the secular world. What many people do not understand, and you and I do very well, is that the Church and its doctrines do not operate from earthly principals based on popularity contests or opinion.

 

[karrie]

..... unlikely the Church will ever accept a new defintion of matrimony based on the whims of the secular world. ....

Nothing I'd been discussing had been about homosexual marriage actually. But rather, the definition of homosexuality as a sin, which meant they couldn't receive communion. No changing of sacraments there, only the definition of the church's view on homosexual relations. It's not in the commandments, and it wouldn't actually effect the sacraments.

 

[sanctus]

Nothing I'd been discussing had been about homosexual marriage actually. But rather, the definition of homosexuality as a sin, which meant they couldn't receive communion. No changing of sacraments there, only the definition of the church's view on homosexual relations. It's not in the commandments, and it wouldn't actually effect the sacraments.

Actually, we have an issue here as Jesus teaches that marriage is to be between one man and one woman...hard to reconcile a homosexual "marriage" with that very clear injunction

 

[karrie]

Actually, we have an issue here as Jesus teaches that marriage is to be between one man and one woman...hard to reconcile a homosexual "marriage" with that very clear injunction

I've seen plenty of priests overlook other marriages which have occurred outside of the church (for really, if you were to ignore the homosexuality, their sin is marriage outside the church), and continue to allow someone to receive communion.

 

[sanctus]

I've seen plenty of priests overlook other marriages which have occurred outside of the church (for really, if you were to ignore the homosexuality, their sin is marriage outside the church), and continue to allow someone to receive communion.

True, but it is difficult to reconcile "one man to one woman" with two men or two women

 

[karrie]

True, but it is difficult to reconcile "one man to one woman" with two men or two women

Tough to reconcile it in which context? In the context of marriage within the church? Or in the context of sexual relations between men and women being a sin worse than extra marital sex of same sex partners?

 

[sanctus]

Tough to reconcile it in which context? In the context of marriage within the church? Or in the context of sexual relations between men and women being a sin worse than extra marital sex of same sex partners?

Yes, marriage within the Church.

 

[tracy]

tracy:

Religion is more than an expression and isn't optional. Adopting it is not subject to democratic election. Open and private worship pays homage to our creator and honours Him and that is demanded of us as an obligation.

Works are nothing if done without worship scripture says.

AndyF

Maybe my works are meaningless to you or to your God, but that doesn't change the fact that I do consider others. I haven't turned to self and ignored the rest of my fellow man because I don't believe in Jesus.