She married a divorced man. They couldn't marry in the church because the church didn't recognize his divorce from his wife. As far as the church was concerned he was still a married man and she was committing adultery by being with him. They married in a united church and continued to worship there. That's the church they brought their children up in as well. IMO it's a much more welcoming church and much more in tune with the realities of modern life.
Wyoming Priest Denies Communion to Lesbian Activist Couple “Married” in Canada
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She married a divorced man. They couldn't marry in the church because the church didn't recognize his divorce from his wife. As far as the church was concerned he was still a married man and she was committing adultery by being with him. They married in a united church and continued to worship there. That's the church they brought their children up in as well. IMO it's a much more welcoming church and much more in tune with the realities of modern life.
In this forum everyone but Christans go to hell. Christans just say, oops sorry, back to the heaven line they go.
So, out of curiousity, I mean, I know that the catholic church teaches that they are the only true church. Did she have issues with leaving the catholic church? Was she okay with it? It sounds like it.
Do you think this hasn't already been done? It's been done again and again and again with several issues. The Vatican has spoken on the matter and they aren't going to change their minds. They've probably spent more time debating interpretations of biblical passages than any of the rest of us ever will. They aren't going to come out tomorrow and say you can commit adultery. It's a commandment, it isn't exactly ambiguous. Homosexuality isn't even the issue. Gay couples are comitting the same sin my aunt is.
Better to change society and make the catholic church's rules on the matter unimportant to the secular. They did it with birth control didn't they? Don't see too many people who care what the catholic church thinks about the pill nowadays. Homosexuality will be the same. Society will evolve, the church won't.
Well, then this is my other arguement. Why should this organization NOT face strong criticism in society? Why should society sit back and accept an organization that is preaching anti gay sentiments so strongly in our communities? Fine, if there is not going to be any change...then...why on earth should they be accepted within the community?
And, there are so many interpretations of the bible, and other religions have interpreted what the bible is telling them in a way that accepts homosexuality...so, obviously, within the texts, there is opportunity to take a different stance on the issue. So, I don't buy the whole thing of going to the texts over and over and getting the same answer...there is not a book written where one cannot go back to it and find different meanings, different twists, different outcomes, different interpretations. The bible is no exception. So, is it that the catholic church has exhausted their opportunities, or is there just a strong unwillingness to change, so strong that their reading of the texts are clouded by their own prejudices and desired outcome?
She wasn't thrilled with it and it caused some pain to my grandma, but through examination she realized she wasn't really a catholic. If she didn't believe the church's teachings about marriage, divorce and adultery, how could she call herself a catholic? Those are really basic, central teachings of the church and she didn't believe them. She didn't feel like she was sinning by marrying a divorced man, just like this lesbian couple doesn't feel like they are sinning. Religion is an all or nothing proposition. You either accept your faith 100% or it's meaningless. If you start picking and choosing which parts of the faith you believe or accept then all of it is open to rejection and there is no point (meaning if the church is wrong about divorce then they may be wrong about marriage, birth control, abortion, etc. so why follow any of their teachings?). She put it really simply once: Why buy raisin bread if you don't like raisins?
That's what this couple wants to do. They want to buy the raisin bread but throw away the raisins. The church may truly be causing them pain. I disagree with the church's stance on homosexuality completely. BUT, this couple is also causing pain by trying to force members of the church to throw away parts of their faith. If a priest gives them communion knowing they are not worthy to receive it according to their teachings, then communion as catholics see it becomes meaningless. That's a pretty big deal.
That's the scary part of it all. The world is constantly changing and in the word of "progressives" becoming more "inclusive." Homosexuality thirty years ago was tainted and those so designated marginalized. Today it's mainstream. Quite a leap in three decades. Women get large body tattoos, kids get multiple facial and body piercings and few blink an eye anymore. Yet such practices were unthinkable over the better part of our history in the West. Which makes me ask what lies down the road? What practices loathed and denigrated today, even by gays and the general community, will be commonplace in twenty years?
It's called evolution. Things change. Egyptians sported tattoos. Piercings and body modifications are part of a variety of cultures. Didn't many soldiers over the last 100 years sport some pretty massive arm tats? Anyway, society is in a constant state of change, of evolution. Just as there is the possibility of society becoming more accepting, there is also the possibility of society become LESS accepting. We shall see what the future brings.
I never said society should accept the church. In a lot of places it doesn't. How many active catholic friends do you have? I have very few. Most of my friends don't believe their teachings on homosexuality, marriage, birth control, abortion, etc. They are irrelevant. We're just not wasting any time trying to convince them they're wrong. You'll never convince a true believer they're wrong, and as an outsider I think it's a bit arrogant to try anyways.
I'm not saying the bible doesn't have different interpretations, I'm saying the Vatican has considered those and made its decision. That's the end of the ballgame for them. Unless you find a passage where Jesus specifically said "Ignore that part about it being an abomination to have gay sex and completely redefine marriage as a union between two persons, not a husband and wife like we always talked about", you're not going to change their minds. They have leviticus, they have the commandments, they have passage after passage describing marriage as a heterosexual institution. They think you are just as misguided as you think they are. Have you ever considered that they may be right? I personally don't think so and I expect them to accept the conclusion I came too and not argue with me endlessly. I don't want them telling me over and over again I'm wrong even though I acknowledge I could be wrong. By the same token, I'm not going to continually harass them into seeing things the way I do. They've looked at the same world, the same bible, the same relationships and have come to a different conclusion. That's their right.
Snfu, I think we'll be greatly surprised at what is acceptable 20 years from now. And I haven't the least doubt if we all could be teleported to the future we would be angry as hell at what we find. But those there will look at us and say - "What's the big deal, mate?"
I'm sure the "mafia heads" suck up to the church more than anyone, shove wods of money into the
church, and play the role of the good "catholic/family man". Most of the women and children of the
mafia families are probably innocent, and good catholics, as many of the mafia's families don't have
a clue what criminal activities, their husbands/fathers are into.
All of the "so called" bad people who attend the church, have to live with their own "behaviors", as
the church doesn't know'. We all have to be accountable to "ourselves" for our "bad" deeds. The church isn't a detective agency.and can't follow everyone around, then say "AH HA", we've got you now, "no communion for you" today.
Can the priest stand up "there" and look over the congregation and read everyone's mind, of course
not.
The church is "quite a place" to sit and judge "others", and it's done all the time by the people sitting
there at mass, but "just like those who judge", noone can prove what "anyone" is doing.
The only people the church can "either" help, or "deny" sacrements to, are those who come forward
and "state" their concerns.
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Well...what do you think the future holds then? What do you feel is coming that would shock us so much?
Well...I agree in many ways with what you are saying. It's less trying to convince, and more trying to participate in this discussion. Like I have stated before, this is a discussion forum. If we don't talk because we think it's a waste of time and we aren't going to change anyones mind and it's a fruitless excercise...why are we here? We're just discussing. Chances are, with ANY of the topics brought about, there won't be alot of change. But, if we aren't discussing anything...what are we doing in a discussion forum? You are right, in the real world, not much will change when it comes to the church. But, in here, when issues are brought up, we discuss them. Some shut us out, some try to shut us up, but in the end, the whole point of these forums is to...discuss.
Snfu, hard to say. Thirty years ago I would never have guessed that in 2007 tattooing would be an explosive, society-wide phenomenon or that teens, pursuing extreme piercing, would look more like cave-dwellers of 10 000 years ago than moderns or that pornography would be available to all ages 24 hours a day on the Internet. I'll have to think about it.
Man...you have a dim take on tattoos and piercings. I don't see them as being a bad thing. The availablity of pornography....that has a few more social implications I think, although I don't take a dim view of pornography as a whole.
I'm all for discussion. I just think this couple is wasting their time and I think what they are doing is wrong. Just like they want respect for their beliefs, they should be willing to give that to others.
tamarin:
Yes HS has become more accepted. But acceptance is not an indicator of a general realization that HS is good. We also note this comes at a time where religious obligation is on a downward spiral. I see a correlation between the two. So what do these signs indicate to us? It says that has we reject God, a corresponding inability to discern right from wrong occurs as well. What was once clear is now nebulous.
Other symptoms of this turn away from religion are a general orientation to self than to others. If satan can preoccupy people with vain activity, and get man to preoccupy himself with novelty, the less he will feel a desire to devote this energy to helping others.
Your concern is valid. What is down the road for us depends on us.
AndyF
Yes HS has become more accepted. But acceptance is not an indicator of a general realization that HS is good. We also note this comes at a time where religious obligation is on a downward spiral. I see a correlation between the two. So what do these signs indicate to us? It says that has we reject God, a corresponding inability to discern right from wrong occurs as well. What was once clear is now nebulous.
Other symptoms of this turn away from religion are a general orientation to self than to others. If satan can preoccupy people with vain activity, and get man to preoccupy himself with novelty, the less he will feel a desire to devote this energy to helping others.
Your concern is valid. What is down the road for us depends on us.
AndyF
Andy and Snfu, I have done some thinking. And I've visited the world thirty years from now. It was a learning experience! Here are those things I found that would most likely offend our sensibilities today:
- In the year 2037 cloning has been perfected and work on humans has been underway for years. Hope there is to allow all newborns to be cloned and have an alternate body available in the future. But the reality is that advances in cloning have allowed the developing world a niche in organ export. Large shipments of various essential human organs now enter North America every day, and given the longevity boom, moral constraints have ebbed.
- Churches have lost their tax free status and locals not wishing to see the buildings shut have allowed them to be sold to the commercial marketplace. Most are now nightclubs benefiting from the extra room dimension. Hedonism is the most common way of life now.
- In 2037 child porn has been mainstreamed and can be found on any newstand. Police and justice departments, discovering children and youth were increasingly the accused in most porn production cases, have caved. Many children now pay for their education using porn as their ticket.
- The longevity boom has made it impossible to offer easy access to government pensions and drug plans. Now it's routine to work to 80. In return for a loyal work force, the government has handed the food and drug administration over to private hands so that new gimmicky cures and treatments are fastpaced to market. There is a huge market in alternative drugs and therapies. The most common advertisement now on billboards is rejuvenation and lifestyle drug related. New Age spas are the most promising of growth companies.
-As mixed race marriages proliferate in the West, the children of such marriages are celebrating their status and now call themselves Athenians, the best of the old and the trendiest of the new. Reverse discrimination is the problem now. Strangely, as the West evolves the economic giants of the East, China and Japan, have not changed policy and see the West as pointless and decadent but still commercially important.
How's that? Or maybe I'll have to try harder to see 2037.
- In the year 2037 cloning has been perfected and work on humans has been underway for years. Hope there is to allow all newborns to be cloned and have an alternate body available in the future. But the reality is that advances in cloning have allowed the developing world a niche in organ export. Large shipments of various essential human organs now enter North America every day, and given the longevity boom, moral constraints have ebbed.
- Churches have lost their tax free status and locals not wishing to see the buildings shut have allowed them to be sold to the commercial marketplace. Most are now nightclubs benefiting from the extra room dimension. Hedonism is the most common way of life now.
- In 2037 child porn has been mainstreamed and can be found on any newstand. Police and justice departments, discovering children and youth were increasingly the accused in most porn production cases, have caved. Many children now pay for their education using porn as their ticket.
- The longevity boom has made it impossible to offer easy access to government pensions and drug plans. Now it's routine to work to 80. In return for a loyal work force, the government has handed the food and drug administration over to private hands so that new gimmicky cures and treatments are fastpaced to market. There is a huge market in alternative drugs and therapies. The most common advertisement now on billboards is rejuvenation and lifestyle drug related. New Age spas are the most promising of growth companies.
-As mixed race marriages proliferate in the West, the children of such marriages are celebrating their status and now call themselves Athenians, the best of the old and the trendiest of the new. Reverse discrimination is the problem now. Strangely, as the West evolves the economic giants of the East, China and Japan, have not changed policy and see the West as pointless and decadent but still commercially important.
How's that? Or maybe I'll have to try harder to see 2037.
I think this may be going a bit far. I'm not a religious person at all. I've rarely been to church (less than a dozen times in my life), but I chose a career that puts me in the service of others. Religion isn't the only reason humans feel rewards from giving of themselves. Almost all people seek connections to family, friends, community, etc. We are social animals by nature. Religion gives some people a place to express that but others find it in their friends, their jobs, their hobbies, their volunteer work, etc.
I think you're a bit of a pessimist...
Child porn becoming acceptable? Doubt it. If anything, child rights are increasing. Think back to the catholic church 30 years ago and the catholic church today for instance. Which was more tolerant of child abuse? Governments in the west are even now changing the law so they can charge their citizens with crimes even if the abuse they commit happens overseas. Couldn't do that years ago. My mom and her siblings were beaten by their father and it was seen as "a private family matter". Not anymore. We are far less tolerant of child abuse today.
Churches losing their tax free status? I could see that one, but I don't really think it will happen because it would affect other charities and even the secular don't want that. I also don't think the decline in church going is that bad. There are a lot of born agains and they have tremendous faith and resources.
I could completely see the FDA becoming private. That's part of the drive to privatize everything here. Gimmicky cures are already a HUGE industry. Look at weight loss supplements. Billions a year spent on supplements with no proof they do anything.
I don't see mixed race kids becoming huge discriminators. Maybe that's cause I live in a very mixed area, but I just don't understand the rationale of that one. If anything, I see race becoming a non-issue. It already is for a lot of us.