Won't 'sell out' on rights despite China snub: PM

[earth_as_one]

Earth_as_One

So if cultural imperatives like “One shouldn’t speak out about human rights abuses by the communist regime in Beijing… “because we must always show reverence and respect for our nation’s leaders……” are the rule of the day when it comes to China, how does one let an oppressive regime know that its human rights record is unsatisfactory?

Quietly whispered in the washroom at the U.N.”?

We’ve been conditioned to accept that criticism leveled at the oppressive regime in Jerusalem is the same as anti-Semitism….so the effectiveness of declaring displeasure at disproportionately brutal responses to rocket attacks and Israelis kidnapped by Palestinian’s “quietly” continues while people die….

Does the same rule apply here Earth_as_One?

“Oh no we can’t have any overt criticism of the government in Jerusalem spoken aloud, that would be offensive and counter-productive since our criticism will be dismissed as anti-Semitism….”

Kindly cease and desist posting your negative criticisms regarding the Israeli government…you’re not working to solve the problem only inflaming the situation….

I suppose we could all just be quiet about human rights abuses and let the abusive dynamic unfold however the strongest and most prepared to oppress and abuse have their way, then when there aren’t any more rights to protect for anyone we can be self-satisfied that we didn’t offend anyone….

Am I on the right track here Earth_as_One?

We can continue to empower the abusers by providing them the resources needed to reinforce and entrench the systemic flouting of human rights…i.e. we can continue to play the “trade-game” with China and we can happily accept the continued arming and financing of Israel by the U.S.?

Are you suggesting that saying something is counter-productive in eliciting self-evaluation by the abusing regime and besides there’s benefits that accrue to those in support of oppressive regimes like mounting wealth (China) and consolidating the Jewish vote come election time (America)….

If not saying something is the more diplomatic route, then surely the investment dollars anxiously waiting in the coffers of the Beijing government should be welcomed in Canada (Athabaska Tar Sands) despite the fact that this money might well have been better spent in China to ease the suffering of those languishing under a totalitarian regime.

We certainly wouldn’t want to say … “Nope sorry China, we won’t conduct business nor permit investment from your nation due to your continuing intransigence regarding human rights….”

How could that be interpreted as anything other than a “cultural-slight”?

Our criticisms should be couched in fluffy clouds of rhetoric that have no sharp edges, best expressed through a nod and a glance but better yet left completely unspoken?

While people die at the hands of murderous oppressors the world over we simply shrug our shoulders roll our eyes and look the other way?

What is the magical nuance that differentiates a criticism of human rights abuses by any government as a cultural insult on one occasion but renders that criticism acceptable on some other occasion?

Or if you’re suggesting we just say and do nothing why do you bother attempting to incite passion regarding the Palestinian situation?

Machjo: “It's really an issue of national pride and face, a very big issue in Chinese culture.”

If saving face as cultural imperative supersedes the importance of rights in Chinese culture then why is anyone bothering with discussing this issue?

Just ignore it all…..

Canada should not ignore China's human rights abuses. We should not ignore any nation's abuses, whether it is China, Israel, the US or our own. No nation is pure evil or good despite Bush's assurances about Iran, North Korea and Iraq.

http://<a rel="nofollow" href="http..._rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China</a>[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China[/url]

Even if China agreed to discuss Human Right's at head of state level, I doubt it would have any effect. However China inviting experienced Canadian judges and lawyers to help them reform their legal judicial system might be.

 

[tamarin]

The charge levied at China in the last two months that the regime was flouting even the most basic rules of decency and civil society by imprisoning minorities like Falun Gong members to extract their vital organs for transplant has shocked the West. This story wasn't carried in the National Enquirer. If this story alone is true, China has got to be the biggest international villain this century, in its infancy, will ever produce.
Is the story true? If it is, you'll not need any further corroboration to instigate a blistering condemnation of the country.

 

[earth_as_one]

If it was true, mainstream news sources would carry the story.

China's judicial system is prone to abuses. China has outlawed Falun Gong as a national security threat. As a result people who are more or less harmless have been imprisoned.

Rather than getting your information about China's human right's situation from biased objectives, I recommend reading Amnesty International's annual report about China to get a balanced perspective.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/chn-summary-eng

 

[gearheaded1]

At least he's doing something!

While I don't necessarily agree on Harper's waving the flag of going against China, I do respect him for making a stand for what he believes is right.

Whilst Martin and Cretien were in office, I had a pretty solid feeling that nothing of particular note was being accomplished in office, and that anything coming out of Ottawa was going to be in a perpetual holding pattern, until a new leader came along.

The reign of King Ralph in Alberta is a good example of a leader that was controversial, certainly didn't get along with everyone, nor did all Albertans agree with everything he said (or did), BUT what he did do was try different ideas out, communicate what he was doing, and foremost was a Strong leader.

What we need now for Canada, is a strong leader, one that believes in Canada, and one that isn't afraid to shy down from public or international opinion. We all should give him a chance to make some change, ruffle some comfortable feathers and get something done!

 

[Machjo]

It would be interesting to weigh the consequences of a total ban on Chinese goods. No traffic either way for Canadians or Canadian companies. I know China is flooding the world with cheap textiles, sporting goods, electronics, furniture and more. A lot of this is closing down domestic enterprise everywhere. If we took a stand on principle and kicked China out of our marketplace would it be an overall win for the Canadian economy?

\
Now I don't understand. First we talk about principle, and then an overall win for the Canadian economy. Which is it; principle or personal material benefit? The two don't mix.

As for Canada boycotting Chinese goods, I don't know. Maybe it would be a good idea. Again, unlike overt criticism, it would just be a policy position Canada would be entitled to adopt.

A question may be would this promote more openness in China, or simply cause more unemployment in the country, thus making the population more open to the government interfering even further into their economy to create employment? My guess is that such a plan would backfire, simply giving the Chinese government even more power. If Canada should openly criticise China, then it would certainly be perceived as an 'arrogant westerner sticking its nose in Chinese affairs.'

I'm not opposed to a boycott, but just be aware of the concequences.

An alternative solution I'd be open to would be a popular boycott. In this way the Canadian government itself needn't interene, and Canadians themselves could organize such a boycott at the grassroots. This could have a few advantages:

1. China couldn't accuse Canada of intervening in Chinese affairs since the Canadian government would have nothing to do with this. Yet the message would still come across in a more subtle manner.

Just my ideas.

 

[Machjo]

It's great to see Harper take the stand. Anyone who knows anything about China is aware of the longstanding and growing international concerns about what it does at home and what it encourages abroad as far as human rights are concerned and resource management. China needs to be curbed. I wonder what Harper has up his sleeve. To publicly pull the tail of the tiger is seemingly risky business. There's more here afoot than meets the eye.

Whether I agree with AHarper in principle is another issue, but the way he went about it was completely incompetent. Yes, China has problems, and they needs be addressed. So take it through the proper channels at the UN. Beyond that, (I'll approach this through Chinese eyes now just so you can better understand how many Chinese, even those opposed to their government, see this), 'keep your colonialislt attitudes to yourselves'. I'm not saying I see it that way necessarily, but that is a common Chinese view. Not very constructive if all it does is irritate the masses now is it.

 

[Machjo]

And just a few points on tarriffs and hyoomin rites:

1. To stop trade would hurt the people more than it would the govt.

2. The majority e t h n i c group is han, and consider their background. Most of them are not religious, and have had a bad history with religion in the last 200 years. Needless to say, they're wary of religion. The way they look at it is 'freedom from religion'. I believe in God myself, so I'm not defending it, just pointing out the facts. As for language issues, they recognise the value of a common language for China and so have decided to impose theirs on the minorities. Heck, we do the same with the Indians, so it's the same thing there; they're just more aggressive about it due to e t h n ic tensions intluding t e r o r tactics. The majority fears the minority in this sence, and so values a strong central govt capable of maintaining unity, by force if necessary. As an example, you'd be surprised how many would volunteer for service if Taiwan ever declared independence. This is popular opinion, not just govt propaganda. The situation is in fact more complex than most Harperites make it out to be.

As for the Israel issue mentionned above, yes I agree. It would be more constructive to criticize Israel through official UN channels rather than taking it on directly. I'm sure taking it on directly probably simply pushes more Israelis to rally behind their government. Through the UN, at least then it's a united front should other nations support sanctions. And if they don't then there really is nothing Canada can do, so let it be. That's what the UN is for.