Windows XP or linux?

cdn_bc_ca

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May 5, 2005
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Hey, a fellow Arch user! I still have my archlinux partition on my computer and I won't be deleting it anytime soon.
I run Gnome and my computer from boot to desktop takes 20 secs.

Judland said:
#juan said:
This may be a bit off the topic but have any of you tried DSL(Damn Small Linux)
.

Yes, I've tried DSL and it's a pretty nice distro. Great for getting the most up-to-date applications running on an old P1. It even brings new life to those older 486s.

I've been playing and learning a new distro. myself.... ArchLinux.

It's a great distro. for those wanting to learn the guts of Linux and is optimized for i686s (ie: Pentium IIs and above).

I was a little intimidated at first, but actually learning how to tailor system files isn't all that hard at all. But what makes this distro so easy (at least for me) to learn is the community behind it. Very helpful people. Well, they'd have to be, being a Canadian-built OS and all. :)

I was amazed that after setting up the base system, my PC booted up into the KDE log-in screen in 32 seconds!
 

Judland

Electoral Member
cdn_bc_ca said:
Hey, a fellow Arch user! I still have my archlinux partition on my computer and I won't be deleting it anytime soon.
I run Gnome and my computer from boot to desktop takes 20 secs.

I'm really enjoying Arch. As with a Linux, Microsoft, or Mac OS, it isn't for everyone, but it's certainly empowering. Well worth my time to learn... and I've learnt a lot.

The "Pacman" package manager is really slick. No more having to install new releases of the OS. Pacman handles it all with one simple command.

Learning about the power of the command line and manually configuring scripts hasn't been anywhere as near as difficult as I thought.

cdn_bc_ca said:
XP is just a tinkerable as Gnome or KDE. There are ways to overcome the trusted themes so that you can apply user created themes that look just like, for example, OS X. Plus, I love sinapse which is a free little app that mimicks Apple Expose... there is no acceptable equivilent in Linux.

Just wondering, as my interest in exploring XP has gone the way of the Dodo.... has Microsoft finally allowed for "hot-key" assignment to applications and documents? (example: I've taught KDE to launch some of my favourite apps and frequently opened documents when I press the keys CTRL-ALT-S or CTRL-ALT-W, etc.)

Have you tried SuperKaramba at all? Might be an option for you. You can use it to completely replace KDE's standard toolbars and menus.

As for the "average user", well, my wife uses Linux and KDE. She's not all that compuer-savvy, but she has no problems and loves the fact that I can make my KDE desktop do all sorts of wonderful and crazy things... while her KDE destkop stays just the way she left it.

Also helpful for the kids, too. My son can completely muck up his log-in account, while my daughter's stays perfectly stable and secure.
 

cdn_bc_ca

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May 5, 2005
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Judland said:
Just wondering, as my interest in exploring XP has gone the way of the Dodo.... has Microsoft finally allowed for "hot-key" assignment to applications and documents? (example: I've taught KDE to launch some of my favourite apps and frequently opened documents when I press the keys CTRL-ALT-S or CTRL-ALT-W, etc.)

Don't know. But I found this free little app that does this and more:
http://www.micro-sys.dk/products/launcher/

The windows-key on the keyboard does a bunch of stuff also, but I don't really use it that much.

Judland said:
Also helpful for the kids, too. My son can completely muck up his log-in account, while my daughter's stays perfectly stable and secure.
The problem with XP is that alot of people log in as the administrator (or root). As you probably know, one of the biggest "no no's" for Linux is to use the computer this way. If all XP users followed the same practices as you and I (working as a non-root non-administrator user), there probably wouldn't be so many problems. But Microsoft doesn't really promote these practices to their users.

I just got a new monitor for my computer, a Dell 2001FP (21" widescreen baby! 8O ), Windows detected it and put it to the highest resolution the monitor supports (1600X1200), however, when booted Linux and got into Gnome, there was no option for 1600x1200 when I wanted to change the resolution... I had to go into the xorg config file and add the entries for 1600x1200 (because my old monitor couldn't support this resolution and so it wasn't there). Would an average user be able to do this? This is what I'm getting at... the little things. I wonder what would happen if I went from a Radeon X800 to a GeForce 7800GT? Can you think of the things you need to do in Linux to get this card working at fullest potential? I can think of a couple.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
cdn_bc_ca said:
I just got a new monitor for my computer, a Dell 2001FP (21" widescreen baby! 8O ), Windows detected it and put it to the highest resolution the monitor supports (1600X1200), however, when booted Linux and got into Gnome, there was no option for 1600x1200 when I wanted to change the resolution... I had to go into the xorg config file and add the entries for 1600x1200 (because my old monitor couldn't support this resolution and so it wasn't there). Would an average user be able to do this?

But, if you were to have bought a "Linux compliant" monitor, auto-detection probably would have worked for you. I think punishing Linux for the short-comings of the manufacturers isn't all that fair. But I do see your point.

Thankfully, because of those people who don't buy hardware not easily usable under Linux, those un-cooperative manufactures are starting to take notice and are beginning to support Linux natively. It's getting better all of the time. But, if nobody took a stand, then nothing would have changed, I'm sure.

Heck, the Linux community has helped the Microsoft user immensely, by simply forcing them to offer some of their products at more affordable prices.... but now I'm really getting off topic here.

I've upgraded monitors myself, and I haven't had to do anything to reconfigure for them. Of course, I use Kanotix, which has the best hardware detection I've seen for a Linux OS. I also don't use Gnome, but rather KDE, which has better support all-around, in my opinion.

Anyway... to each his own. I still feel there's big changes a-comin' in the world of computers and their operating systems. Thankfully, Linux is continuing to grow and improve month by month.... and I'm glad to own my PC again on my own terms.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
cdn_bc_ca said:
The problem with XP is that alot of people log in as the administrator (or root). As you probably know, one of the biggest "no no's" for Linux is to use the computer this way. If all XP users followed the same practices as you and I (working as a non-root non-administrator user), there probably wouldn't be so many problems. But Microsoft doesn't really promote these practices to their users.

Well, since I'm at the office, I decided to take a little tour of my XP laptop.

Now, we're forced to log in to our PCs with user accounts, too. However, I just navigated to my C:\Windows directory and attempted to delete a .dll file. Seems as though XP is not going to stop me from doing this. It has only asked me if I'm sure I want to do that.

I've let my MS-Windows knowledge fall by the way-side, I'll admit that, but I'm sure I remember .dll files been pretty key to the whole MS-Windows operation thing. Letting me, a simple user, delete such a file ain't good. 8O
 

cdn_bc_ca

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Judland said:
I've let my MS-Windows knowledge fall by the way-side, I'll admit that, but I'm sure I remember .dll files been pretty key to the whole MS-Windows operation thing. Letting me, a simple user, delete such a file ain't good. 8O

[quote="Judland
I've let my MS-Windows knowledge fall by the way-side, I'll admit that, but I'm sure I remember .dll files been pretty key to the whole MS-Windows operation thing. Letting me, a simple user, delete such a file ain't good. 8O[/quote]

yes. DLL files are key.
I just tried this on my XP machine. I created a new user called "Restricted" and assigned it to the "Users" group. This is the group that has the description like:
"Users are prevented from making accidental or intentional system-wide changes. "
I believe you can even create your own group with specific access rights etc. but I used XP's default limited user group.

Then I logged off and logged back in as Restricted. Then I went directly to the windows folder and tried to delete twain.dll. It said "access denied"

If you don't believe me, here are some screenshots. I hope you can see them at full size (1600X1200).
 

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Judland

Electoral Member
Interesting. Thanks! I wonder how many "average users" know how to something as simple as you've made this out to be? If it is such a simple thing to do, why are XP users having such issues with virus and spyware vulnerabilities?

If you can restrict access (as effectively as you can do under Linux) then why all the virus and spyware software on the market for Microsoft?
 

cdn_bc_ca

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May 5, 2005
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Judland said:
Interesting. Thanks! I wonder how many "average users" know how to something as simple as you've made this out to be? If it is such a simple thing to do, why are XP users having such issues with virus and spyware vulnerabilities?

If you can restrict access (as effectively as you can do under Linux) then why all the virus and spyware software on the market for Microsoft?

The short answer is that MS, on a default installation, does not have the same security setup as Linux does. A simple thing like I've described in my previous post is not as simple a task for, say, my wife. :oops: She doesn't know the first thing about security.

There is a lot of debate on the virus and spyware issues with MS vs. other OS'es. Some say that the reason that MS has so many spyware and virus issues is because they are the most dominant OS in the world (say like 90% marketshare) which leads to greater damage (and hence, popularity) if one writes viruses/spyware for it. Others say that the OS and Internet Explorer is not very secure. While both of these may be true, the fact is that any installation of the MS OS leaves your computer wide open to attack on the Internet (if it was connected to it). That is, all ports were open and services (like file and printer sharing) were all enabled and susceptable to attack. I believe the reason behind this philosophy is to allow users like my wife to connect to printers etc. on a LAN without any hassle. This philosophy existed before the Internet became such a huge phenomenon. Nowadays, their philosophy is starting to change. For example, installations of Windows Server 2003 are, by default, locked down solid. That is, no ports are open by default. Administrators need to enable each service they want manually. In the early days, many administrators were frustrated because they didn't realize this and couldn't get their application servers running.

I believe that all OS'es are susceptable to attacks from the Internet, including Linux. If you don't believe me, you can directly connect your Linux machine to the internet (bypass your router if you got one) and log in as root, shutdown your firewall, wait a few days without shutting your computer down and see what happens. Check your logs and you will see.

Some also say that Internet Explorer is full of security vulnerabilities. While this may be true, Firefox, last month, had more discovered vulnerabilities than IE. It is also not immune.

Lastly, last time I checked, Firefox has 11% marketshare and IE has 80. If you were a spyware writer, what browser would you target?
 

Judland

Electoral Member
I don't think it's a question of "popularity". If it were, Linux would be the biggest target for system crackers, not MS, as Linux is growing to be the most popular OS for network servers (ie: the computers managing today's Internet).

There's got to be good reason for this. Especially since there's really no significant marketing being done on the part of Linux... at least, not from what I've seen.

And yes, any system can be made to be insecure. Yet, from an "out of the box" perspective, most Linux distributions are secure by default... yet do not punish it's user for this by restricting them to what they can and cannot do with their PC. It still remains completely configurable with a little bit of tweaking.
 

cdn_bc_ca

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Judland said:
I don't think it's a question of "popularity". If it were, Linux would be the biggest target for system crackers, not MS, as Linux is growing to be the most popular OS for network servers (ie: the computers managing today's Internet).

Well, if one were to do DOS attacks, one would probably use a couple hundred thousand PC's... probably the more the better... and they could be a combination of any OS.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
cdn_bc_ca said:
Well, if one were to do DOS attacks, one would probably use a couple hundred thousand PC's... probably the more the better... and they could be a combination of any OS.
I think you're comparing apples to oranges, there.

Is a DOS attack not something different than trying to crack into a system? In fact, most likely, a DOS attack would be launched on a Linux server by thousands of compromised Windows PCs.

And a DOS attack only works because these thousands of PCs are all trying to connect to the server at once, therefore denying anyone else from making a legitimate connection; At least, from what I understand of the process.

In any case, this only strengthens my point on the problems Microsoft systems cause for others in the industry. If it weren't for Microsoft's flaws, we'd have a safer Internet... at least in my opinion. But, hey, that's just me.
 

meitme

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one i'm sure that if linux was in microsofts postion it would befound to be riddled with flaws because there would be so many people trying to get through. also what microsoft offers is the comlete monopoly of most prgrams and the highest possible simplicity so that everyone can learn to use windows fast. you should see the learn to books people need. these people would never survive on linux.
 

no1important

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I thought Linux would be harder to use but I was very surprised how easy it was to use. I also like having more control of computer as well.

You can basically get the same programs for linux as you can for XP at no cost. Hell with the two distro's (Kanotix and Ubuntu)I have I do not even need to install them on my hard drive to use them.

With Kaffeine or Xine I can watch my music videos, DVD's, play cd's, play my music no matter what format including quicktime with no problem and same with Real Player works just as well as it did with windows. All my old word documents and PDF work under Open Office and the two Linux PDF programs I have. My HP fax,printer was hooked up and running in under 30 seconds no install disk needed.

The one thing I noticed with Linux unlike XP the more programs I put on, it does not "bog" or "weigh down" my computer like windows.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
Re: RE: Windows XP or linux?

meitme said:
one i'm sure that if linux was in microsofts postion it would befound to be riddled with flaws because there would be so many people trying to get through. also what microsoft offers is the comlete monopoly of most prgrams and the highest possible simplicity so that everyone can learn to use windows fast. you should see the learn to books people need. these people would never survive on linux.

In my opinion, Microsoft is riddled with flaws because of their proprietary standing. So, I agree. If Linux was proprietary it probably would have more flaws that it does now.

As of ease of use advantage Windows has over Linux.... that's a myth. I'm sorry, but it's true.
 

cdn_bc_ca

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Re: RE: Windows XP or linux?

Judland said:
As of ease of use advantage Windows has over Linux.... that's a myth. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Really? Then maybe you can tell me how to place 4 photos on a 8.5X11 page and print them out borderless on my ink jet printer? In Windows, it's just a matter of a few mouse clicks... no need to rotate, no need to scale, no need to manually place photos on the page...pretty easy. Just select your layout, import photos, press print.

Oh, and while you're at it, can you tell me how to check my ink levels on my Canon printer in Linux?
 

no1important

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Getting Windows-Based Printers to Work With Linux

scroll down a bit.
On my system, once everything was working, the Canon printer monitor gave me a printer status readout, including ink levels in each of the four ink tanks while a print job was underway, as shown below:
 

Judland

Electoral Member
Re: RE: Windows XP or linux?

cdn_bc_ca said:
Really? Then maybe you can tell me how to place 4 photos on a 8.5X11 page and print them out borderless on my ink jet printer? In Windows, it's just a matter of a few mouse clicks... no need to rotate, no need to scale, no need to manually place photos on the page...pretty easy. Just select your layout, import photos, press print.

Oh, and while you're at it, can you tell me how to check my ink levels on my Canon printer in Linux?

Right after you tell me how I can turn off HTML and RTF formatting in Outlook. I'm really getting tired of the e-mails at the office I get with the HR person's pink and green striped backgrounds. :wink: All I want is the message.

In K-mail, I've got my e-mails automatically coming in as plain text, and if I really want to see the HTML formatting, I just have to click on the button at the top of the message itself.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
no1important said:
Getting Windows-Based Printers to Work With Linux

scroll down a bit.
On my system, once everything was working, the Canon printer monitor gave me a printer status readout, including ink levels in each of the four ink tanks while a print job was underway, as shown below:

Good one, no1! Seems as though you're grasping the Linux world quite well. It's not all that much work, is it?
 

no1important

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Linux is easy to use and once you switch it takes a while to stop thinking of doing things the "windows way".

I would bet if you gave people who never usesd a computer ever in their lives, two computers one with XP and one with Linux I would say the majority would find linux easier to use. It is not any harder to figure out than any other OS but there is a myth out there that says it is. Hopefully that will change.