Windows XP or linux?

Judland

Electoral Member
Yup, I've tried Ubuntu. It's a nice distro. of Linux, but it's not 100% compatible with Debian SID packages.

What this means is (or at least to me anyway), it is possible to "break" your system if you're not careful as to the packages you upgrade or install. Safest practise is to stick to the software repository of the Ubuntu people. This will limit you to using only their package "builds" instead of having everything available to Debian SID.

Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop manager... while Kubuntu uses KDE (as Kanotix does). Personally (that's PERSONALLY mind you), I feel KDE is further along in development and usability than Gnome.

I have not tried Kubuntu, but really don't have the desire too anyway.

Nothing wrong with testing out new distros., though. That's the beauty of live CDs.

Let us know what you think when you've had a chance to play with it a bit.
 

canuckster

New Member
May 19, 2005
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I've had no luck installing Ubuntu or kubuntu. There is a boot loader bug.
Someone else mentioned Kanotix and Mepis as good starter linux operating systems. They are great! The easiest for a newbie is Mepis. Mepis also comes with video card support in the install so you can play tuxracer right off the bat without installing kernal source and drivers later on which can be a real pain. I could leave windows permanently for mepis. I've also got centos, ailinux, and symphony linux installed right now. I'll probably replace centos soon. I'm not a redhat, fedora, or mandriva fan.
 

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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Ubuntu was diferent yet familar to Kanotix.

I never tried the hard drive install. Just the Live CD. Thats a plus with Linux you can try some distro's without installing them.

I like Kanotix better, more features that I want. I am not saying Ubuntu is bad, it is a good distro but its just not for me. I also like KDE.

Thats the Linux advantage though, so many distros to choose from, you can find one that best suits your needs, and with distros that have live cd's you can try them out without affecting your current O/S.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
Yup, Mepis is good but it has some minor issues with stability. I used Mepis until I found Kanotix.

Want to really see a different perspective on desktop GUI computing? Check out Symphony www.symphonyos.com sometime.

They're different and thinking out of the box, but perhaps a little too much for me. :D

But, hey, you wouldn't have this freedom of creativity using Microsoft products. Heck, Microsoft wouldn't allow you to do anything creative with their OS, what-so-ever.
 

Haggis McBagpipe

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Jun 11, 2004
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I can live with this, I am Slackware Linux:

"You are the brightest among your peers, but are often mistaken as insane. Your elegant solutions to problems often take a little longer, but require much less effort to complete."
 

Judland

Electoral Member
I'm an Amiga OS?



Well, I guess I do still like using my Commodore 64. :D
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
If you want to try something interesting, Knoppix is available as an interesting download. If you download the file (huge!!), and burn it to a cd, you have a bootable linux with a COMPLETE office suite, web browser, the works...that runs off the cd.

You can carry this cd around, stick it into any computer, you can then run the office suite and browser. If you don't save any files, it does not touch the hard drive....it's an interesting idea.
 

no1important

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And if IBM says so, then it must be true

By Nick Farrell: Thursday 01 September 2005, 08:06
TWO REPORTS commissioned by penguin champions IBM claim that Linux is actually less expensive to own than Windows or Unix.

The PR move by IBM is similar to Microsoft's "Get The Facts" campaign which produced reports that said the exact opposite.

Big Blue’s research was made by the Robert Frances Group and has the catchy title "TCO For Application Servers: Comparing Linux With Windows And Solaris".

It compared the cost of acquiring, implementing, and running an application server on Linux, Windows, and Sun Solaris. It found that Linux is 40 per cent less expensive than a comparable x86-based Windows server and 54 per cent cheaper than a Sparc-based Solaris server.

The report says that Linux’s biggest saving comes about because it does not have the huge licensing fees of VoleWare and Solaris. However, there are other savings to be made, too.

The other IBM-sponsored report by research firm Pund-IT claims there are "second-stage" benefits to using Linux. The report, titled "Beyond TCO--The Unanticipated Second Stage Benefits Of Linux," staff much prefer using Linux and this has a significant role in the recruitment and retention of IT staff and managers.
 

Neodim

Nominee Member
It does not really matter since any OS is evolving and thus is prone to mutations and glitches + amazingly , user interface concept has not changed for years and it is easy to get lost in thousands of possibilities that OS presents and which _simple_ user never sees.
So sadly the OS you choose has become more political (or economical, both $ and time invested in self-education) decision than practical.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
Hmmm.... I question your interpretation of the word practical.

As for the research these reports bring to light :roll: , I've stopped reading them. Like you No1, I've experienced and benefitted from Linux first hand (as well as see the problems with Microsoft every day at the office I work at). There's no report that can change my mind on the practicality of Linux and all it has to offer over other OSes.

Nothing beats first hand experience (good and bad).
 

cdn_bc_ca

Electoral Member
May 5, 2005
389
1
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Vancouver
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I feel that I have some points to add to the conversation after having tried Linux for a few months.

If you want to use Linux, you must be willing to accept sacrifice.

Before all the Linux people start flaming me, here are my reasons:
1. Driver support. While driver support has improved dramatically with Linux, it is still not as perfect as with Windows. Some vendors simply do not write drivers for Linux. In cases where drivers are provided, the sheer number of distros available make it hard for the vendor to write installers for all linux environments. That is why some distros provide their own software repositories from which you can install provided that they have it, whereas others adopt a standard packaging method such as RPM. Thus, many Linux programs come in source form and the maintainers of the distro package it up for you so you can just click to install it. However, if you need a program that is not in the repository, well, then, it's back to source compiling.

2. Optimization. Linux is known for running on old hardware and that contributes to it weakness. If you look at distrowatch.com, alot of the distros are compiled for i386 or i586 for compatability reasons. Hardly any are optimized for i686 or current processors. Again, if you want to get the fastest possible speed, then you need to compile the distro yourself (read Gentoo).

3. Games. I've played Enemy Territory on Linux. Although there was a package I could install, the game itself relies on OSS sound emulation. I was using ALSA. Needless to say, sound didn't work and it wasn't intuitive to get it fixed and I have found many incidences of people having the same problem (and even playing the game without sound because they couldn't fix the problem). THen I dual booted back into Windows and downloaded the Windows version of it and everything worked when I double-clicked the icon. Fortunately, I found a person who found the solution to the linux problem and posted the results on a forum.

4. MS Office vs. OpenOffice. OpenOffice is not fully compatible with MS Office. I am writing my thesis in MS office and it contains objects from Visio. One day, I decided to open it up in OpenOffice 2 and I was amazed that it looked exactly the same. However, when I made some minor changes, saved it back to disk as a MS Office document, and reopened it at a later date, all the imported objects were gone. I mean, the space for the objects where still there, it was just blank. However, if I saved it in the native OpenOffice format, the objects were still there after I saved and resaved it. Good, but then I submitted it, and none of my professors could open the damn thing.

5. Printing. I have 2 inkjet printers. An HP Deskjet and a Canon S800, one for daily use and the other for photo printing. If you want to print borderless photos, Linux is not your OS. I have not found an application for any desktop (gnome, kde, etc) that can do borderless photos like the piece of software that Canon made for Windows (called Photorecord). In my opinion, this simple program that asks you how many photos you want to print, whether or not you want borderless, then goes off and arranges the photos automatically and prints is not matched by any program in Linux. If you want the same functionality, you could download GIMP, but then you'd have to import the photos one by one, rotate them manually, resize them, and then place them on the page so that they don't overlap. Then play around with the margins so you can get borderless.

6. One day, I decided I wanted some eye candy on my Gnome desktop. So I downloaded gDesklets, cool. Then I wanted transparent menus and windows. Nope. can't do it, very buggy when X is running with xcomposite extensions. Oh well. Hey! how about this thing called skippy (which is a clone of the famous Apple's Expose - where you can see a snapshot of all your windows shrunk to fit on your desktop with cool animations). Well, skippy sort of does it... except the snapshot of the window does not represent the current window - only when it was launched. Then there is skippy-xd which can do updates of the window in real time! oh, but it requires the buggy xcomposite extension and has a 2-3 second lag. Oh well. So I dual boot into Windows and see if there anything like this and viola! A free program call Synapse 0.1 beta for Windows not to mention other non-free ones called WinPlosion and TopDesk.

7. I sometimes VPN into my corporate network to do support. In Windows, it was as simple as following the wizard to setup the VPN connection. In Linux, well, hmm... wasn't obvious and I had to go through and learn every setting in the OpenVPN config file.

At this point, I sat back and thought long and hard whether Linux was worth switching to. When I mentally reviewed the things I was doing with Linux. I found that I spent more time tinkering with the OS than getting any actual work done. Every little thing in the OS needs tweaking which is too much for most people especially after an upgrade of certain packages.

If you want to use Linux, you must be willing to accept sacrifice.

Which is why I'm back to Windows. But you can be sure that I will be doing the same thing every year with Linux just to see if I can successfully switch over without making any sacrifice.
 

no1important

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Sorry you had such a bad expeirence but I have not encountered any of the problems you mention ( I do not play games though and from what I heard that is a weakness, so I will agree with you there).

To be honest I have not had any problems finding drivers for anything, when I added new printer it installed right away. Unlike when I ran windows, i never had to use installation disk.

I have no problem watching tv, burning dvd's, watching dvd's etc with my Linux (Kanotix on KDE). I do on my other hard drive have Ubuntu with gnome but I usually forget I have it so I never really use it. I just love Kanotix, so user friendly.

To be honest I love open office and have had no problems opening anything that was made on Microsoft office yet. I find it a little easier to use and I find it easier to convert files to pdf.

Synaptic package manager makes it a breeze to install and update programs and even if you download and install a program that is not in synaptic it is not that dificult.

I do not miss the spyware or virus's or computer freezing up or computer crashing as was the case with XP (although XP never crashed as bad as ME), paying through the nose for programs etc. My Kanotix never has crashed and is olid as a rock.

A lot of people think Linux is just like windows but it isn't, on the surface it may seem similar but other than that it is not. With Linux you have to sign in to root as "super user"access or change major programs like Firewalls, clock, move things from one hard drive to another,add programs, change programs but that is no big deal.

I know some people it takes a while to get used to sometimes having to use command codes or codes for when on root but it is easy to figure out.


But in the end it is up to everyone what their preference is and what they are comfortable in using, but to me I would never go back to Windows, open source is for me.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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This may be a bit off the topic but have any of you tried DSL(Damn Small Linux)
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/


I am definately not a computer geek but I found this little baby quite easy to use for most things. I have it on a spare computer and I try to use it at least a couple times a week. I still need to learn but I'm getting there.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
A few points...

First, I use pretty run of the mill hardware, so drivers are never an issue with me.

Recently I had to replace my motherboard. So I did, then booted up my system. Everything still worked as perfectly as it did before I upgraded. Now, do that with XP..... I don't think so. Even the guy at the computer store told me that if I was going to replace my motherboard, I better have my XP rescue CD handy as it's going to want to restore/reinstall itself. Talk about waisting time tinkering.

As for MS-office compatibility, MS-Office isn't even compatible with itself. You try and open up a MS-Office 2000 document under MS-Office 97. Get ready to be p*ssed off. You'd be surprised how many times I've saved other people's butts at the office by having OpenOffice on my PC for just this purpose.

Even though Linux does require you to learn some new things, when you've configured something to work on your Linux PC it stays that way (unless YOU go and change something).

I can't count how many times I had something working on my MS-Windows PC only to find the next day it wasn't working for some strange, unknown reason. I had enough of that foolishness.

With Linux I now have a lot more free time I can devote to learning new, interesting things about my PC, rather than waisting time fixing things that were already working once before.

What I find a little confusing is the point that a lot of time is spend "tinkering" with the system. I'm assuming that tinkering means getting the desktop interface to look a certain way that you want.

If that's so, then yes, there's less time spent on a MS-Windows box doing this cause MS-Windows doesn't allow you to do much "tinkering" at all. You get what they've made and that's it. You don't like it.... tough. I don't see how this feature of Linux is a bad thing.

As for hardware optimization: could you tell me how MS-XP is optimized for i386 / i586 / i686? Do you even have that capability to optimize MS-XP to your PC's hardware? From my understanding, XP is built to a benchmark... ie: if you want the best performance, you need certain hardware to match the XP benchmarks.

However, with Linux, with a little bit of "elbow grease" you can optimize it to the particular hardware you currently have running, getting the best performance possible from it. Or, if you don't want to spend so much time "building" your own brand of Linux for your particular needs, you could probably find an existing distribution already in existence, which you can download and use for FREE!

So is having a choice better than no choice at all? I would say yes.

But, with all due respect, yes, Linux is not for everyone. Linux represents choice and the ability to learn and control your own environment. Some people aren't ready for that and that's okay.

Myself, I'll never go back to the confines of proprietary software. It just made me too lazy (mentally). And let's not overlook what you sacrifice by using products like MS-Windows: privacy, security, freedom of choice, freedom of ownership, not to mention your hard earned money... to name a few.

Just some points I thought I'd share for contemplation.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
#juan said:
This may be a bit off the topic but have any of you tried DSL(Damn Small Linux)
.

Yes, I've tried DSL and it's a pretty nice distro. Great for getting the most up-to-date applications running on an old P1. It even brings new life to those older 486s.

I've been playing and learning a new distro. myself.... ArchLinux.

It's a great distro. for those wanting to learn the guts of Linux and is optimized for i686s (ie: Pentium IIs and above).

I was a little intimidated at first, but actually learning how to tailor system files isn't all that hard at all. But what makes this distro so easy (at least for me) to learn is the community behind it. Very helpful people. Well, they'd have to be, being a Canadian-built OS and all. :)

I was amazed that after setting up the base system, my PC booted up into the KDE log-in screen in 32 seconds!
 

cdn_bc_ca

Electoral Member
May 5, 2005
389
1
18
Vancouver
What I meant by tinkering is, for example, installing wine using wine-tools and trying to get photorecord to work. For some reason, wine-tools wasn't able to install some files in the basic setup, but in the end, when I installed photorecord it kept crashing anyways. I also had a problem in Gnome 2.12 not automounting any media like my external cd-writer and internal dvd drive. So I had to tinker with the system to get it to do what I wanted. I also had to tinker with ET to get sound to work as well.

XP is just a tinkerable as Gnome or KDE. There are ways to overcome the trusted themes so that you can apply user created themes that look just like, for example, OS X. Plus, I love sinapse which is a free little app that mimicks Apple Expose... there is no acceptable equivilent in Linux.

The problems your experiencing with XP when you update your hardware is more likely to do with their attempts at overcoming piracy than hardware compatability. But, still, you are finding this minor problem annoying as am I with the problems I have with Linux.

I'm glad that you are finding Linux a good replacement for Windows. For the average user like myself, I just think that Linux is not really a good replacement just yet. Although I've learned enough about Linux to get all the functionality that I had with Windows, I'm just getting tired of spending 10 or so minutes configuring scripts and parameters when I can do the same thing in Windows in less than 1 minute. An example is VPN into corporate network and remote desktop into my work computer.

Plus add to the fact that all my friends, coworkers, professors are still using Windows and Windows only programs makes it harder for me to justify when documents don't covert correctly.

Judland said:
A few points...

First, I use pretty run of the mill hardware, so drivers are never an issue with me.

Recently I had to replace my motherboard. So I did, then booted up my system. Everything still worked as perfectly as it did before I upgraded. Now, do that with XP..... I don't think so. Even the guy at the computer store told me that if I was going to replace my motherboard, I better have my XP rescue CD handy as it's going to want to restore/reinstall itself. Talk about waisting time tinkering.

As for MS-office compatibility, MS-Office isn't even compatible with itself. You try and open up a MS-Office 2000 document under MS-Office 97. Get ready to be p*ssed off. You'd be surprised how many times I've saved other people's butts at the office by having OpenOffice on my PC for just this purpose.

Even though Linux does require you to learn some new things, when you've configured something to work on your Linux PC it stays that way (unless YOU go and change something).

I can't count how many times I had something working on my MS-Windows PC only to find the next day it wasn't working for some strange, unknown reason. I had enough of that foolishness.

With Linux I now have a lot more free time I can devote to learning new, interesting things about my PC, rather than waisting time fixing things that were already working once before.

What I find a little confusing is the point that a lot of time is spend "tinkering" with the system. I'm assuming that tinkering means getting the desktop interface to look a certain way that you want.

If that's so, then yes, there's less time spent on a MS-Windows box doing this cause MS-Windows doesn't allow you to do much "tinkering" at all. You get what they've made and that's it. You don't like it.... tough. I don't see how this feature of Linux is a bad thing.

As for hardware optimization: could you tell me how MS-XP is optimized for i386 / i586 / i686? Do you even have that capability to optimize MS-XP to your PC's hardware? From my understanding, XP is built to a benchmark... ie: if you want the best performance, you need certain hardware to match the XP benchmarks.

However, with Linux, with a little bit of "elbow grease" you can optimize it to the particular hardware you currently have running, getting the best performance possible from it. Or, if you don't want to spend so much time "building" your own brand of Linux for your particular needs, you could probably find an existing distribution already in existence, which you can download and use for FREE!

So is having a choice better than no choice at all? I would say yes.

But, with all due respect, yes, Linux is not for everyone. Linux represents choice and the ability to learn and control your own environment. Some people aren't ready for that and that's okay.

Myself, I'll never go back to the confines of proprietary software. It just made me too lazy (mentally). And let's not overlook what you sacrifice by using products like MS-Windows: privacy, security, freedom of choice, freedom of ownership, not to mention your hard earned money... to name a few.

Just some points I thought I'd share for contemplation.