Why so much use of AntiDepressants

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
yes I to believe docs are not gods and are getting perks from pharmacy companies --the perks are making Docs partial to certain meds and prescribing

But I feel Anti d's make some people lethargic, in a state of not involved or caring about things as much as they may have without them, its like a pacifier Canada wide and most times with a little on one counseling the person could get better without these drugs ,
A little guidance a little pep talk and people are feeling in control again

WE SHOULD NOT BE DOLLING OUT MEDS LIKE THIS

First off, most docs are NOT getting perks from pharmaceutical companies. That's an insulting an ignorant comment. Doctors work hard to give patients the medicines that will help the patient.

Second point about lethargy - anti depressants take away the lows, but also take away the highs, so they do tend to make people a bit lethargic, they level out both the peaks and the valleys.

If you believe that 'most times' people don't need drugs, they just need guidance and a pep talk, then you don't know much about depression or mental illness.
 

RomSpaceKnight

Council Member
Oct 30, 2006
1,384
23
38
61
London, Ont. Canada
As a species we were never designed to handle the pressures of today. For the vast majority, thousands and thousands of years, of our evolution we have been hunter gatherers who live to be 35 years old. Very recently in that eveolution we now live relatively sedate lives of great life span. We live old enough to die of cancers and heart disease. We are stressed and now suffer from more and more diseases of the mind and psyche. Previously we did not live long enough and were able to work out our stress by either chasing down our food or running for our lives to avoid being food.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
I wish I had a quick fix for the racing stuff but its takin me 5 years to beable to recognise it and stop it. That ones a long haul. Many Many Many classes. Medicinal Drum Journeying finally did the trick.
Medicinal Drum Journeying? What is that? I am presuming it has to do with drumming...but...that's about all I know...and I'm not even sure if I know that.
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
18
38
This is not a subject to bash... don't go Tom Cruise on me...

1 out of 5 woman suffers from depression. Many people have depression... I don't.

I get stressed, but I am never depressed for no reason. Thats just me.

But people who are depressed have a chemical imbalance in their brain.

And using the "drug companies lie for $$" is the usual tactic for naysayers on certain drugs.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
How new is this phyanomanum anyway. Didn’t doctors in the 60s prescribe mothers tranquilizers to help them deal with their nerves:

http://www.keno.org/stones_lyrics/mothers_little_helper.htm

and before that weren’t opiods prescribed? Whatever the intial cause of anxiety and depression atleast drugs make things better for a little while if not in the long term. Hopefully the medicine of today is better then the medicine of the past.
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
16
18
First off, most docs are NOT getting perks from pharmaceutical companies. That's an insulting an ignorant comment. Doctors work hard to give patients the medicines that will help the patient.

"I never said the docs didn't work hard I said the are influenced as to which meds and it makes it easier to Rx the meds -"

Second point about lethargy - anti depressants take away the lows, but also take away the highs, so they do tend to make people a bit lethargic, they level out both the peaks and the valleys.

If you believe that 'most times' people don't need drugs, they just need guidance and a pep talk, then you don't know much about depression or mental illness.

Yes I believe most people don't need drugs and lots of docs get perks for using certain meds --seen it all through my career and actually know a few reps for pharma companies --I'm not ignorant or insulting anyone -- They get trips ,gifts ,extra mentions, many many things ,you need to open your eyes --I studied under a pharma rep for about 3 months (was going to join the "team" ) until a very awful car accident ended my career and my life as I knew it --so I think it may be you who is ignorant

Just one example --

lot of people are getting rich off HIV. The money is so big that it puts a lot of people and companies in a questionable position ethically and morally. And you can be certain that this lure of easy cash dirties more than a few hands. While many activists draw attention to corporate greed by pointing to the high-price of many drugs (most recently Sustiva by ACT UP Philadelphia), the root of the problem goes much deeper. The price of a drug is merely a symptom of a much more vast formal and informal network of perks and payoffs.

Some doctors and some pharmaceutical companies are profiteering from one of the most lucrative illnesses ever to hit humankind. Poised to pounce on this pandemic, the global costs of HIV make it one of the largest pharmaceutical "cash cows" in history. For instance, the treatment costs of HIV would exceed the entire GNP (gross national product) of many African and Asian countries if they were to offer the "cocktail" to everyone positive with the virus.
With big money comes temptation, and not everyone can resist taking a bite out of this apple. Through various informal schemes, some doctors get free trips to exotic places at fancy resorts. You see, pharmaceutical companies have lists that tell them which doctors are prescribing their drugs. All drug companies monitor doctors and what they write prescriptions for. As a result, doctors who push a lot of a particular med are rewarded with a nice vacation; keep in mind that these trips are usually seminars or workshops, but no one cares if you attend the meetings or not. Much like a "frequent flier" program, these doctors belong to a "frequent prescriber" club.
While the above example may seem relatively harmless, others are not. Some doctors enroll patients in studies without telling them so. Here's how it works: you need to switch meds for some reason and blood work is done to monitor how well you're doing on the new regimen. For a period of time after the switch, a copy of your lab results is sent to the pharmaceutical company where certain reactions, adverse events, problems, benefits are put in a data bank. This is usually done with your name being removed from the lab test, but the results are still monitored. The problem with your doctor sending the findings is that there is no informed consent -- you are neither informed that this is done, nor consent (agree) to it. In other words, you are being studied without your permission.
The pharmaceutical industry is also guilty of blurring ethical lines. While we can be certain that most drug companies engage in questionable activities in order to gain "market share" for their medicine, one recent example demonstrates the moral depths to which they will descend. On 22 September 1998, Investor's Business Daily accurately predicts the protease trend: "A report indicates that Agouron should take away market share from Merck's Crixivan because of Viracept's twice-a-day dosing. Agouron may also benefit from recently announced manufacturing problems at Abbott Laboratories, which makes Norvir." Further, the aggressiveness of Agouron's tactics are well known in the pharmaceutical industry as reported by the San Diego Union-Tribune (9/16/98): "Instead of celebrating the drug's success, Agouron President Peter Johnson has struggled to preserve momentum and to keep Wall Street interested." This prediction did not fall on deaf ears at Agouron. Even though Agouron's profits grew 90% during the first quarter (San Diego Union-Tribune, 10/21/98), and even though "Viracept is now the most widely prescribed protease inhibitor" (PR Newswire, 10/20/98), an ethically dubious move was made to capture even more market share by rewarding doctors if they switched their patients from Norvir to Viracept.
The scheme worked like this: Agouron would give doctors $1,000 if they switched a patient from Norvir to Viracept. Scott McCallister who is a leading HIV specialist in Chicago told Positively Aware that "Agouron was quick to react when the problem with Abbott's Norvir appeared. They came to us and offered a quote-unquote 'trial' using nelfinavir (Viracept). They brought a form with them that first day and offered us a $1,000 a patient to switch them." Dr. McCallister summarizes his reaction to Agouron's approach: "I think any reasonable physician would question Agouron's ethics. It is reprehensible to me that they would take advantage of an unforeseen manufacturing problem by Abbott. And it is reprehensible to me that they would offer us a quote-unquote 'bribe' in order to change drugs."
Agouron's side of the story is a little different. They angrily responded that such speculations were untrue and that Agouron has worked hard to help the HIV community. In fact, the money given to the doctors was to be used for research and was not a pay-off. The doctors we contacted, however, don't see it that way. Dr. Robert Brandt of Dayton, Ohio reported to Positively Aware that: "I have never seen a research protocol constructed this way, it was simply a ploy to gain market share." Scott McCallister further explains that this was the "first time he was approached by a drug company presuming that their drug would improve the problems associated with another drug. This was an unusual practice, we do a lot of studies in our office, this is something we have not seen before."
Besides the obvious ethical questions, matters of health are also compromised. Another doctor, David Butcher of the Kansas city Free clinic, says he was asked to switch patients, but won't because of the potential for a viral rebound with Viracept. His research indicates a significant number of patients experience an increase in viral load after switching protease inhibitors. In his words "the holding power of Viracept is inferior to Norvir. It would be sinful to switch."

From these few examples we see how money corrupts some individuals in the treatment and study of HIV. While Agouron's behavior probably represents more a lapse in ethical judgment than a pattern of practices, such conduct should be brought to light and made public so as to maintain our system of checks and balances with drug companies.
-- by Steve Whitson, Ph.D​




As for the mental ilness and meds

Level out!!!! people --right ,thats why people are all over the map for years before the get the right combo of meds --ok so ever body should be walking around always level is that your idea of a great world ---no conflict everything just OK --please --What about getting to the people before it becomes a major issue and then they would need as may drugs
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
16
18
Doctors take big perks

Doctors Take Big Perks from Pharmaceutical Giants
Just Say No
Source: CTV News Staff
Montego Bay, Jamaica is a tropical paradise and the perfect getaway. You can windsurf, golf or just relax on gorgeous white sand beaches along the Caribbean Sea and for some, the price is right.
For many of the Canadian doctors enjoying this particular trip, it's free and paid for by international drug giant, Boehringer Ingelheim.
Dozens of doctors, specialists and their spouses are staying at the luxurious and world-renowned vacation spot, the Half Moon Resort. There, the rooms start at more than $600 a night.
"It's upsetting, you know. It's very disappointing," says Canadian cardiologist, Dr. P.J. Devereaux.
He says drug companies are constantly offering doctors incentives to learn about their drugs.
"It is an enormous amount of money that the industry puts out in trying to actually offer promotions to physicians to hopefully influence their practice."
According to the invitations to Jamaica, obtained by W-FIVE, Boehringer Ingelheim offered to pay for the flights of doctors along with their spouses, accommodations and several meals. All the doctors had to do in return was to attend some seminars about arthritis drugs and the benefits of their product.
The president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Henry Haddad, says it's wrong for doctors to accept gifts, because a gift implies obligation.
"Your dealings with the pharmaceutical industry must not come between you and your patient and we feel that accepting gifts, accepting trips, whatever order is wrong," says Dr. Haddad.
Some research has also shown that doctors are influenced by drug marketing techniques.
"There's good evidence to show that it influences physicians at the level of knowledge, at the level of their attitudes and at the level of practice," says Canadian researcher, Ashley Wazana.
Wazana published a study in the Journal of American Medical Association and concluded that with increased interaction with the pharmaceutical industry, doctors prescribed unnecessary drugs, drugs with more side effects and more expensive drugs.
THE COST OF DRUG MARKETING TO HEALTH CARE
The cost of drugs in Canada is soaring. Last year alone, drugs cost the health care system more than $15-billion. Only hospitals cost more than that amount. Some critics argue that a big part of what's driving up drug costs is the lavish marketing to doctors, such as the trip to Jamaica.
A return business class ticket on that flight to Jamaica costs $1,700. Three nights in the resort's least expensive rooms are another $1,900. The bill is $3,600 before you add in any meals, drinks or extras. Remember, that's for only one doctor.
Dr. Devereaux insists that every time a doctor accepts an invitation to a drug company event, it's taxpayers and patients who end up paying in the end.
"No one would go into Mrs. Jones' room and say, 'Mrs. Jones, would you mind paying for my lunch?' But in a way that's in fact what we are doing... It all comes back to higher drug costs. There's only one way to recuperate the money."
Drug company marketing is big business. Industry critics estimate it costs as much as a billion dollars a year in Canada, some of which is spent directly on doctors.
"It happens. It's ubiquitous, happening globally and it's happening all the time," says Dr. Devereaux.
W-FIVE wanted to speak with some of the doctors who attended the drug company event in Jamaica.
It's not known how many, if any of the doctors, decided to pay their own way. Few of the doctors returned W-FIVE's calls and among those who did, even fewer were willing to speak about the trip.
Finally one doctor was willing to be interviewed. Dr. Wally Pruzanski is a rheumatologist and lives in the upscale neighbourhood of Forest Hill in Toronto. The drug company paid for his trip to Jamaica.
Dr. Pruzanski says he's been on about five or six trips paid for by the drug companies and he went to Jamaica to get up-to-date information about a particular drug.
"You have to understand that when we leave Toronto, and when we accept this kind of invitation, we are losing part of our practice. So we are sacrificing part of our income, in order to educate ourselves."
He also says he in no way feels an obligation to the drug company.
Even CMA president Dr. Haddad says the offers can be pretty enticing, admitting that he once accepted a trip to Ireland from a drug company. It's a decision he now regrets.
"I tell you honestly, I felt bad. When I came home, I told my wife I shouldn't have done that... I didn't feel comfortable being wined and dined by the industry."
But what is there to stop doctors from taking drug company perks? Absolutely nothing.
Dr. Haddad says he's not aware of any doctor being sanctioned in any way for accepting gifts from a drug company.
"The CMA is not a police. CMA has no role in enforcement. We can't sanction physicians."
ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM
In Houston, Texas, more than 1,000 medical students are attending an American Medical Students' Association conference.
This year, one of the main topics of discussion is the relationship of doctors with drug companies and the ethics of doctors accepting freebies.
"We want physicians to stop accepting gifts, all gifts regardless of size... Certainly some of the bigger ticket items, like the lunches and dinners and the weekends away and the trips to the golf course, golf outings, tennis outings and so forth like that," says Dr. Bob Goodman.
No free lunch has become a catchphrase for those who believe doctors should refuse drug company offers. The movement is due in large part to Dr. Goodman and his organization, called 'No Free Lunch.'
"Our motto is, 'Just say no to drug reps'."
As a specialist in internal medicine at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City and teacher, Dr. Goodman instructs medical residents how to best treat their patients.
Three years ago, Dr. Goodman decided to take a page from the drug companies' book. He created a line of his own paraphernalia with the brand name, 'No Free Lunch.'
"I created these mugs and pens and T-shirts as a sort of a bake sale to raise money to buy drugs for patients, that was the initial impetus. At the same time, I started the website and then the organization grew into something else."
What it grew into was a site for doctors to take a pledge vowing to abstain from drug company perks.
"I am committed to practicing medicine in the best interest of my patients and on the basis of the best available evidence, rather than on the basis of advertising or promotion. I therefore pledge to accept no money, gifts, or hospitality from the pharmaceutical industry; to seek unbiased sources of information and not rely on information disseminated by drug companies; and to avoid conflicts of interest in my practice, teaching, and/or research."
Dr. Goodman considers this almost an addendum to the Hippocratic Oath.
"They've sworn to Apollo to do what's best for the patient and this is one thing that will help them do what's best for the patient, rather than what's best for the industry."
Dr. Goodman feels that he's tapped into a receptive group of medical professionals.
"Students for example, who haven't been socialized yet and aren't busy accepting these gifts, can easily see that this kind of thing is wrong and are much easier to convince. And, in fact, I think students are really the answer to this problem."
But what about the drug companies? Well, there are rules about their dealings with doctors. The industry's code states that educational sessions must be the main focus of social events. Drug companies can't offer any free entertainment and trips like the one to Jamaica are strictly forbidden.
In recent years, drug companies have been sanctioned for paying for doctors to attend a number of different events, including everything from a night at the Winnipeg ballet, to an NHL game in Edmonton, an NBA game in Toronto, to free golf and free skiing.
During the course of its investigation, W-FIVE accumulated drug company invitations sent to doctors, such as invitations to fancy dinners at four-star restaurants, a trip to the Bahamas, a private box to an NBA game, and a dinner theatre in Mississauga, Ontario.
W-FIVE presented these invitations to the industry's self-regulating body, called Rx&D, to find out how appropriate they are. Lee Marks is in charge of reviewing complaints.
"The decisions on these kinds of situations are always those of the marketing practices review committee. I do not have the jurisdiction or the authority to rule on them." says Marks.
Boehringer Ingelheim, the company that sponsored the trip to Jamaica, declined W-FIVE's request for an interview, but did send a fax admitting they were wrong to offer the trip.
It states that Rx&D had contacted the company and the event in Jamaica had contravened the industry's code of marketing conduct. Boehringer Ingelheim states that they "accept the ruling" and have "taken steps to ensure that no such breaches occur in the future."
The penalty for the first breach is a fine of $1,000 and the infraction is cited in Rx&D's industry publication, Contact.
But in addition to the trip to Jamaica, W-FIVE has learned Boehringer Ingelheim was sanctioned two other times in the past 12 months for other unrelated matters.
The maximum penalty for repeat offenders is $15,000 and their infractions are published in Rx&D's publication.
"Much more importantly than the financial penalties are the reports of the misadventures of companies. That is the true penalty because no responsible company wants to see its name and details about inappropriate behaviour on the part of its personnel published in a national paper," says Marks.
However, the publication has a limited readership of only 3,000 people, mostly in the industry.
For repeat offenders, the board of directors does have the option to take whatever action they deem is necessary. However, the board has never expelled a company because of infractions to the code.
It is no doubt comforting news to companies, like industry giant Boehringer Ingelheim and to any doctors who want to take them up on their generous offers.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
As a species we were never designed to handle the pressures of today. For the vast majority, thousands and thousands of years, of our evolution we have been hunter gatherers who live to be 35 years old. Very recently in that eveolution we now live relatively sedate lives of great life span. We live old enough to die of cancers and heart disease. We are stressed and now suffer from more and more diseases of the mind and psyche. Previously we did not live long enough and were able to work out our stress by either chasing down our food or running for our lives to avoid being food.

My great grandparents lived longer than my grandparents my own parents are alive only because of surgery and drugs. I agree with fuzzy, the stress levels in the modern urban suburban and exurban cubicles is beyond affordable for many of us. Architecture is directly responsible for much of the agony of life in an industrial life support unit commonly called a house sometimes an apartment, all too often thought of as proper shelter, in them we have reinforced the exclusion of external natural life sustaining parts of the environment. Nothing hurts more than the boring straightlines of the corners intersecting adjacent flat rectangular or square surfaces. We should be looking at soft curves and natural textures.All the fixtures are the same, so it's not remarkable that we seem to have similar problems. We should be living in curved spaces with irregular sufaces and not variations of the shoe box.

I forgot to mention the drug problem, there isn't much doubt about our overconsumtion of everything drugs included and doctors are pushers who frequently don't know the junk they push very well. They are in many cases treating symptoms with convenient stupifiing drugs instead of other time consuming treatments. No doubt many require the drugs and do enjoy the benifits. But too much medicine is fast relife of symtoms and no cure whatever.
 
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darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Indeed Beav, There is even a furniture store in Toronto called 'Curved Space'. That would be sweet. Kinda womb like.:wave:

Exacxtly the kind of thing I was getting at eh1eh, soft and warm and secure not sharp and stern and sterile. And all you have to do is sit there and suck up the good vibrations.:wave:
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
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Richmond, Virginia
Since Ive moved into this apt. (its a converted 1 car garage) Ive grown very centered. Ive desert sage , dream catchers, Fae's hanging every where from the ceiling and all the corners are filled with book cases and Faes. Theres no sharp places.
 

fuzzylogix

Council Member
Apr 7, 2006
1,204
7
38
That's what I think Too Self every house should have lots of plants and small animals and a few trees in it, I bet weed feel better right fast.

Especially small furry beaver- like animals.

As for weed, well, yes I am sure with it we'ed feel better faster too.