Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

[Ariadne]

I beleive you're wrong, it is not jealousy, it is inequality. It is typical government knee jerk reacting. Someones rights have been trampled for too long, now we will right the wrong, but as usual we go to far in our attempt to correct and end up trampling the rights of others.

I do not think an abortion is a walk in the park, and never equated it as such. I have stated many times i think it is over used, and in my case, despite the fact that my wife could not carry to full term, with a tubular pregnancy, it was crushing to terminate that pregnancy, to both of us.

My point again is. She can chose to have sex, she can chose to use protection or not, she can chose to give up the child or abort. He can only chose what she will allow. I understand that it is her body, her choice, but does she not bear some modicome of responsiblity for her actions?

The man, if willing to take on the burden of fatherhood, can not force her to go full term.

The father can not coerce her to abort.

The father has no rights to that child before birth, nor after if he does not PAY.

This is not about jealousy, this is about legal imbalance and the rights of one out weighing the others.

Abortion plays but a small role in this equation. I'm not stuck on it, I'm not sure why you are.

So if only your wife is doing all the choosing, what does she do when you use a condom ... clobber you over the head with a dead chicken? She has all the power in the relationship but you don't understand the concept of having a conversation about children before they arrive ... so ... dead chicken? rubber bat? how does she communicate with you? or does she?

 

[Ariadne]

I'm not sure how to get my point across here.

I'm not sure why you have grasp but only two point, abortion or running.

Neither option is the basis of my arguement. It is the legal requirement of the man to pay for an action that he did not partake alone, nor did he commit with the express purposes of procreation.

If he feels he is not at that point, but she does. He's screwed.

If she feels she is not at that point, but he does. He's screwed.

This is fair to you? yes or no?

If you take into consideration the fact that discussing the consequences of sex before it happens is absurd, it all starts to make sense.

 

[CDNBear]

So if only your wife is doing all the choosing, what does she do when you use a condom ... clobber you over the head with a dead chicken? She has all the power in the relationship but you don't understand the concept of having a conversation about children before they arrive ... so ... dead chicken? rubber bat? how does she communicate with you? or does she?

Do I really need to respond to your innane commentary when it lacks substance or fore thought.

Your continous challenges of what I understand and don't can only lead me to believe that you do not want to discuss this, only belch out your rhetoric and flame bait.

If you put as much effort into debating on facts instead of emotions and bias, as you do in trying to inflict shots on me, you might actually have some crediblity. As of now, you're sorely lacking.

 

[Ariadne]

But as Ad, pointed out, once that support starts, his life, if he is not well off is over. No going back to school, no vacations, nothing. HE CAN NOT EVEN GET THE CHANCE TO BETTER HIMSELF. How does that happen under the charter of rights and freedoms. How do the life of one over ride the rights of anyone else. Child or not, I'm not talking about neglect here, I'm talking about turning someone into a bank machine and holding him there indefinetly. With little hope of seeing sun for 20 plus years.

I under stand the costs, I under stand the needs of children and their rights. But the woman CHOSE to bring that child in to the world, how is that the fault of the man?

You are unbelievable. A woman cannot have a baby without the voluntarily participation of a man, yet when she is pregnant it's all her? If a man steps up to the plate for his responsibility in the pregnancy (strange concept indeed), how is it all about the woman?

 

[CDNBear]

You are unbelievable. A woman cannot have a baby without the voluntarily participation of a man, yet when she is pregnant it's all her? If a man steps up to the plate for his responsibility in the pregnancy (strange concept indeed), how is it all about the woman?

Once again, emotion and bias is your vehicle of choice in conveying some form of thought.

If you read the questions without bias and try hard to apply logic, this issue is easily addressed. But seeing as you have your mind made up about me and anyone that I associate with. There really isn't much point to continuing to attempt a reasonable adult conversation with you.

If the woman wants to be a mother, she can.

If she doesn't want to be a mother, she can do that too.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, he doesn't have a choice. He can not opt out, he must pay support, or face sanctions.

Do you not see the inequality in this concept?

I doubt you will. You have your set position. I'm not trying to change that, but whether you agree or not, this situation is bias and out of balance. I do not like the idea of what it will look like if balanced out, but there is still an imbalance.

 

[Ariadne]

... Really though, I think when you look at it in this way, where precautions WERE taken, there might be a legal argument for his right to absolve himself of any further responsibility. ...

Seems you're almost suggesting that in some situations, men should be excused from their responsibility in causing the birth of a child. I disagree. Grown up males, the real ones, understand their part in the pregnancy and furthermore understand that it is the responsibility of both parents to raise the child, regardless of who has to carry the foetus to term.

Abortion is not a choice, it is a last resort. It is something that women do when they are up against the wall - not a casual, alternative form of birth control that is available when the man accidentally had sex. Many women cannot emotionally undergo the procedure. It's really yucky and when you include the fact that there is a human life, and perhaps a soul, that is getting sucked into the vacuum, it's really not an "opt out" situation.

How does this sound. You show up at a clinic and they dope you up on relaxants ... the group of women, all strangers, are seriously emotionally traumatized by the situation they are in. You have a stick of seaweed stuck into the cervix ... this causes the cervix to dialate, making it easier for the dilatation and curettage; uterus scraping, procedure. This surgery can cause bleeding, infection, puncture of the uterus (perforation), laceration (tear) of the cervix and scarring of the uterine lining (endometrium). Are you with me so far? If any tissue is left behind, this can result in hemorrhage. So far, so good, eh. Are you getting a better picture of this "opting out" yet? Do you want more gorry details? Women are given a strong general anaesthetic that knocks them stupid for 15 minutes, but they're still completely aware of what's happening to them - they're not asleep. Would men go take this "opt out" choice or is that something that never really crosses their mind? Do you want to know what the machine sounds like or how it all looks when it's over? Women cannot "opt out" once they are pregnant - there is always a life altering consequence.

 

[Ariadne]

This really isn't going anywhere, is it?

As long as we keep circling around, back to the rights of others, negating the rights of others. That's all that going to happen.

If you leave emotion at the door, and look at this like you were Spock for a minute.

Everyone seems to want to put blame on someone. Well there is no blame. Shyte happens.

But like I said, leave emotions out of it and look at the arguement from a logical and equality point of view. We all know the end result of unprotected sex is children, so it's safe to say we can leave them out of the equation at the moment.

Lets start at the beginning here, yet again.

Woman and man, freely engage in sex. Easy now, this happens all the time. It's part of life, us and monkey do it for fun.

So lets stop lambasting the men as bad people here. They did not willingly or serrupticiously impregnate anyone, for the express purposses of messing up their lives. Equally, I do not believe all woman are trying to screw over every man they sleep with.

Ok, using Spock like logic, not emotion.

If the woman engages in sex with a man, with the express purpses of having a child, he is liable, period.

If this is a chance encounter and a child is not the goal, but an orgasm is, but sadly a child is produced, why are all the options as to the next step, the very next step, left in the hands of the woman?

If SHE wishes to end it, because she is not ready, she can.

If he isn't, that does not matter?

The hypocracy is paramount, if you look at that with logic, not emotion. Fairness and equality is what womans lib was all about. This looks more like the subjugation of the woman of the 50's then any old TV comercial of the time. Somebody, somewhere, decided that woman are unable to take on the responsiblity for their CHOICES, alone. That is is not logical, nor should it be legal.

As soon as you recognize the rights of women, you'll understand both sides of the situation. As long as you think women have great options when faced with an unwanted pregnancy, you will always believe that irresponsible men are getting the short end of the stick.

 

[CDNBear]

As soon as you recognize the rights of women, you'll understand both sides of the situation. As long as you think women have great options when faced with an unwanted pregnancy, you will always believe that irresponsible men are getting the short end of the stick.

When you come back to reality, could you please provide some proof that I do not recognize the rights of women, I have questioned the imbalance of said rights, but I do not remember saying anywhere at anytime that I do not accept their rights. In fact I have stated several times, that I am playing devils advocate here, and that my personal stance is more along the lines of everyone else. So your personal shots and unrealistic commentary about what I do and do not recognise, support of believe, just show a lack of respect you have for eiether men in general or just anyone that does not agree with you.

I have also not ever stated that women have great options, please provide proof that I did.

Yes I believe your last line sums up your views, all men are irresponsible. They run around impregnating women just to pi$$ you off. Great mature rational there.

 

[Ariadne]

Thanx for solidifying my assumption that you want to make this as personal as possible. Your bias, as with most people around here, is making you blind to anything that does not or can not escape your wrath.

You read into comments and reply to the delusions of such.

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, have I suggested that women are not deep, thinking, or objects.

That is your bias being transferred on to someone that does not tow your train of thought.

I can assure you, you and your beau, are in the minority. I have worked as a bouncer in strip clubs, pubs, bars and night clubs. I have seen woman throw themselves at men, and nearly have sex on the dance floor without much thought at all. And then to top it all off, leave with a guy they just met. Now I can only assume what is about to take place, but the empty cars in the parking lot and the drunken stumbling to a cab that I hold the dor open on, for the young lady. Is a pretty leading asurance that they are not about to enter into a deep phylosophical conversation on the out come of what they are about to do. Both parties, not just the man.

Your contempt for the male of the species is being highlited quiet nicely as you personalize your rebuttle and take your shots at me. You may want to read back some and get a grip on who you are trying to cast as a cad. Because I sertainly do not fit the bill, I'm only playing devils advocate. But you wouldn't have known, that, you're to busy trying to blame me for your woes.

Perhaps your lifestyle has compromised your perception of women.

Of course, you're the devil's advocate ... the master of the discussion ... and everyone else is not the devil's advocate, particularly if they are female.

 

[CDNBear]

Perhaps your lifestyle has compromised your perception of women.

Of course, you're the devil's advocate ... the master of the discussion ... and everyone else is not the devil's advocate, particularly if they are female.

Perhaps my lifestyle has compromised my perception of women?

You are kidding right?

You can read right?

Where did you get that one from?

Please if you think you have an arguement to challenge me personally, please bring your A game and put some proof on the table.

I will bury you in the facts that you are so wrong. Stop projecting your hate and loathing of men on me. You could not be any further from the mark, if you left the country.

 

[Outta here]

Seems you're almost suggesting that in some situations, men should be excused from their responsibility in causing the birth of a child.

uhhh... did you read all of my posts? CB was attempting to instill a line of reasoning into the discussion which might legally hold some merit. I also mentioned the moral ramifications of taking that line of thought. Furthermore, your response to my post came off pretty condescending, especially since if you'd read my posts, you'd know you're preaching to the choir. Your little homily on abortion, while accurate, was unnecessary. I'm aware of what a woman goes through during an abortion, and I've stated pretty clearly that it's not an option to be taken lightly. You make some good points, but you negate your own credibility when you take on such a patronizing tone.

 

[Ariadne]

So now I'm not intellegent?

Is that what your comment was implying?

Yes I have stopped to think about how she feels. Have you stopped to think how the choice the woman makes effects the man? No, in your point of view, he gave up all his rights and choices when he decided to have sex, yet the woman does not. Hmmm, tell me again how that is equality for all?

When a woman is pregnant, a man has several choices. Whether he decided to be a man or run with his tail between his legs are up to him, but he has choices. Based on the man's choices, the woman must ultimately decide what to do. She cannot run - only men have that option.

 

[Ariadne]

Do I really need to respond to your innane commentary when it lacks substance or fore thought.

Your continous challenges of what I understand and don't can only lead me to believe that you do not want to discuss this, only belch out your rhetoric and flame bait.

If you put as much effort into debating on facts instead of emotions and bias, as you do in trying to inflict shots on me, you might actually have some crediblity. As of now, you're sorely lacking.

I like it when the personal attacks start - it tells me that you're lost for words.

 

[CDNBear]

When a woman is pregnant, a man has several choices. Whether he decided to be a man or run with his tail between his legs are up to him, but he has choices. Based on the man's choices, the woman must ultimately decide what to do. She cannot run - only men have that option.

Nothing new from you yet?

I was hoping my last couple post would wake you up.

 

[CDNBear]

I like it when the personal attacks start - it tells me that you're lost for words.

PERSONAL ATTACKS?

That's all you've done!
The only one that is lost is you. You're lost in hate.

And I'm still waiting for you to address anything that I have asked. Without denegrating me or my life or my friends.

I do not believe you can.

That wasn't an attack, that was an obsevation of the lack of objectivity and substance other then anger in your posts. What am I saying, of course that was an attack, in your eyes. If I challenge you, I'm attacking. How irresponsibly male of me.

Please.

 

[Ariadne]

Once again, emotion and bias is your vehicle of choice in conveying some form of thought.

If you read the questions without bias and try hard to apply logic, this issue is easily addressed. But seeing as you have your mind made up about me and anyone that I associate with. There really isn't much point to continuing to attempt a reasonable adult conversation with you.

If the woman wants to be a mother, she can.

If she doesn't want to be a mother, she can do that too.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, he doesn't have a choice. He can not opt out, he must pay support, or face sanctions.

Do you not see the inequality in this concept?

I doubt you will. You have your set position. I'm not trying to change that, but whether you agree or not, this situation is bias and out of balance. I do not like the idea of what it will look like if balanced out, but there is still an imbalance.

If a woman gets knocked up, she has a pretty serious situation to deal with. I guess guys get off pretty easy if a woman has an abortion ... it's not like they're having surgery as a result of "fun leg spreading".

I am never going to see how men get the raw end of the deal when they have choices of marriage, abortion or walking away from their own child. Women's choices are having a child or having dangerous surgery. How are these choices preferable?

 

[Ariadne]

When you come back to reality, could you please provide some proof that I do not recognize the rights of women, I have questioned the imbalance of said rights, but I do not remember saying anywhere at anytime that I do not accept their rights. In fact I have stated several times, that I am playing devils advocate here, and that my personal stance is more along the lines of everyone else. So your personal shots and unrealistic commentary about what I do and do not recognise, support of believe, just show a lack of respect you have for eiether men in general or just anyone that does not agree with you.

I have also not ever stated that women have great options, please provide proof that I did.

Yes I believe your last line sums up your views, all men are irresponsible. They run around impregnating women just to pi$$ you off. Great mature rational there.

Devil's advocate or not, they are your words that I respond to. If they do not reflect your opinion, then I can only say you have quite a gift of role playing. I do find it somewhat absurd that you present a point and then try to sidestep that point by saying it's not your point - you are only the discussion puppetmaster playing devil's advocate. Why don't we just assume everyone is playing that little game - the more the merrier. That way no one has to take responsibility for their words.

 

[Ariadne]

Perhaps my lifestyle has compromised my perception of women?

You are kidding right?

You can read right?

Where did you get that one from?

Please if you think you have an arguement to challenge me personally, please bring your A game and put some proof on the table.

I will bury you in the facts that you are so wrong. Stop projecting your hate and loathing of men on me. You could not be any further from the mark, if you left the country.

Let me help you out ... you discussed your opinion of women based on bouncing at drunken bars ... and I suggested that this lifestyle has compromised your perception of women. Does that help? Are you following?

 

[Ariadne]

uhhh... did you read all of my posts? CB was attempting to instill a line of reasoning into the discussion which might legally hold some merit. I also mentioned the moral ramifications of taking that line of thought. Furthermore, your response to my post came off pretty condescending, especially since if you'd read my posts, you'd know you're preaching to the choir. Your little homily on abortion, while accurate, was unnecessary. I'm aware of what a woman goes through during an abortion, and I've stated pretty clearly that it's not an option to be taken lightly. You make some good points, but you negate your own credibility when you take on such a patronizing tone.

Yes, I did. It wasn't fair to include those gorry details in a response to you ... should have saved it for the other guy. My apologies for being patronizing ... I really do try to be matronizing as often as possible, but sometimes it's just so hard.

 

[Ariadne]

Nothing new from you yet?

I was hoping my last couple post would wake you up.

I don't wake up until Monday ... it's the weekend isn't it?