Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

[CDNBear]

Sorry, but this is starting to drive me nuts ... relevant, succumb,medieval, accusations.

So if I disagree, I'm wrong and if I agree, I'm wrong. Is there a right answer?

You win the debate ... my devil's advocate agrees that men really do get the raw end of the deal. Women "spread their legs" for fun so they can collect a cheque. Men should be able to father children and just walk away. The laws should be changed so that there are no government guidelines governing child support, men should be able to keep their income for themselves even when they have children and if women are going to be so stupid and selfish as to have children when men don't want them, then they alone should bear the consequences of irresponsibly bringing them into this world. Did I miss anything? Oh yah, and if men get women pregnant and a man wants the child, they should have the right to force the women to bear those children and then give them to the men.

Nowhere did I say that if you dissagree, you were wrong. But the reasons you dissagree are based on bigotry not legal equality.

There are a number of other posters that do not agree with my view, yet they understand where my view is coming from, for the most part, as I understand their's. Your point of view is based on hysteria and ignorance, not facts or even emotion.

So what you hate men, one got ya good, get over it. Try some "woman power" or something. Stop blaming all men becuase your choice in men was flawed. Move on.

I did not say anything that remotely looks like what you just accused me of again. I merely ask, why the imbalance in equality, I have not advocted for forced anything, I have merely ask why not.

Please, either read objectively or learn to read.

 

[Kreskin]

Hey Bear, please describe in detail a real life case. Place all the facts on the table. Ages, relationship, family situations, jobs, income levels, assets and liabilities of both parties, living conditions, religious backgrounds, health records, attempted birth control methods, how they met, who initiated the sex, when pregnancy was determined, references to court decisions, etc. Show us one unfair case and bring all of the necessary facts for discussion.

 

[Sassylassie]

Bear after 15 pages of debating this issue what is your solution?

I worked for many years as a rental agent for a World Wide Property management company, and I have to disagree with you Bear because 40% of my clients were single mothers on welfare and none of them received child support for their children. NONE of them, how could I know this well their sources of income were needed to process the application as well as a credit check also I got to know most of the Moms on a personal level. I've personally know only three males that paid child support after a divorce the rest "Cut and Ran" most went on to remarry and have another family. Bear you are an exception not the norm. Most women who choose to have the child from an unwanted pregancy are abandoned and it's an expensive procedure to haul a man's ass in court to prove he's the father. If a female chooses the legal route the cost can run into a six figure total, a female has to prove the male is the father he can call her a hoe and a liar and resume his regular life style. So a man can get a woman pregant and sit back and deny deny and she has to prove who parented that child he doesn't have to do squat it's at her expense. However if a man chooses to be a part of that childs life and the female opposes this it will cost him finacally a fortune so both those scenarios are equal in my eyes but neither is fair to the suffering parties or the child. Both the male and the female can be victims of an unwanted pregnancy but the ultimate victim is the "Baby". I can't image not wanting to be part a life I created, I can't fathom it atall.

 

[Zzarchov]

Look, lets just be honest here.

The simple Just cause is this.

If two people BOTH choose unprotected sex and it results in a pregnancy then you must have a standing rule for how to deal with it fairly.

It is only fair if both share the decisions and responsibilities or only one person has the ability to make choices and is soley responsible for the outcome and needs of the baby.


If it is a shared responsibility then you must choose if its an "Or" decision or an "And" decision.

If its an "AND" decision then both parties must choose to abort the pregnancy. If either the father or mother does not wish an abortion then there will not be one. This is a contract they both agreed to when they both made choices to engage in sex. This isn't forced on anyone, they chose this outcome themselves. Its like complaining about a gambler not choosing to lose his money, he chose to play knowing he could lose.

If its an "OR" decision then an abortion will take place if either partner chooses. This would be horribley unfair to the mother (having to risk the abortion complications), except once again, she CHOSE to enter into this contract. She chose to have sex, knowing a reprocussion of that may be that you would be forced to have an abortion.

Right now though, a situation is in place in which women are not held accountable to their actions, and that needs to change ,for the benefit of future generations.

Obviously society only needs a "default" choice. Couples could easily sign their own individual contracts changing how they wish to deal with the event of an unplanned pregnancy.

Sex and Children are a big responsibility and women need to be forced to put the same care and concern into this matter as men, a carefree childhood existence is reserved for childhood.

 

[Kreskin]

Look, lets just be honest here.

The simple Just cause is this.

If two people BOTH choose unprotected sex and it results in a pregnancy then you must have a standing rule for how to deal with it fairly.

It is only fair if both share the decisions and responsibilities or only one person has the ability to make choices and is soley responsible for the outcome and needs of the baby.


If it is a shared responsibility then you must choose if its an "Or" decision or an "And" decision.

If its an "AND" decision then both parties must choose to abort the pregnancy. If either the father or mother does not wish an abortion then there will not be one. This is a contract they both agreed to when they both made choices to engage in sex. This isn't forced on anyone, they chose this outcome themselves. Its like complaining about a gambler not choosing to lose his money, he chose to play knowing he could lose.

If its an "OR" decision then an abortion will take place if either partner chooses. This would be horribley unfair to the mother (having to risk the abortion complications), except once again, she CHOSE to enter into this contract. She chose to have sex, knowing a reprocussion of that may be that you would be forced to have an abortion.

Right now though, a situation is in place in which women are not held accountable to their actions, and that needs to change ,for the benefit of future generations.

Obviously society only needs a "default" choice. Couples could easily sign their own individual contracts changing how they wish to deal with the event of an unplanned pregnancy.

Sex and Children are a big responsibility and women need to be forced to put the same care and concern into this matter as men, a carefree childhood existence is reserved for childhood.

Ya right. Forced medical slavery. Is it ok if she decides he should be chemically or physically castrated too?

 

[Curiosity]

Oh good we're back to my earlier idea of contracts.... considering both male and female and equal and responsible members of society.

Pre-sexual encounter contract of responsibilities and equality for both partners....and of the as yet to be created human child if such occurs from an event between the partners.

For every man a woman agrees to have sex with - she should have this contract ready for signature...

For every woman a man wishes to have sex with - he should have this contract ready for signature...

All of the agreed upon resulting acts of responsibility if their act of intercourse results in a child towards that child - financially, medically, educationally, rights of visitation and cohabitation, until said child reaches the age of majority.

 

[tracy]

That changes everything. The childs welfare is the sole responsiblity of the woman if she chooses to keep it. Why should the man by forced to pay, because she wants a biped puppy?

Because he was just as responsible for its creation.

 

[tracy]

Those studies are usualy flawed due to the presence of a Birthcontrol Pill. Condoms are officially labeled as "highly effective" but are in no way close to the effectiveness of the Birth control pill.

And in looking it up YOu are right though I am slightly off its 85% effective....Unless you are not allergic to spermicides but that is still not just using a condom is it? And for the record almost noone uses the condom correctly. using it correctly would mean pulling out before ejaculation. Who actually does that!??

from http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/malecondom.html

How effective is a male condom?

The typical use of male condoms, which is the average way most people use them, has a failure rate of 14-15%. This means that 14-15 people out of every 100 will become pregnant during the first year of use. Spermicidal agents increase the effectiveness to over 95% when used correctly and consistently. You should take a pregnancy test if you are experiencing any pregnancy symptoms.

Using a condom correctly doesn't mean withdrawing before ejaculation. You just have to make sure the man keeps it on while withdrawing, after ejaculation. Most condoms come with spermicidal agents nowadays. Condoms are a very effective birth control option.

 

[I think not]

Condoms suck.

 

[tracy]

If the woman feels she is not "grown up enough" she can and many do, chose to abort or give it up.

But the man does not have that option. How is that fair?

.

It's strange to me that the ability to have an abortion is seen as an advantage nowadays.

 

[Kreskin]

Does the profile sound familiar?

He is generally anti-abortion, has often argued against women's abortion rights. Generally he claims the woman as wanton, ****ty and deserving of the bed she made. Because she slept with someone and got pregnant she must have the baby. Too bad so sad. However, unable to take away that right he uses the right as a punishment. Since the law dares to provide a woman with the decision to carry or abort he feels powerless. He feels power when he can withdraw financial support pointing to a female's reproductive rights as the reason.

He went from life begins at conception, protect the fetus at all costs, to not even protecting his own child.

It is a strange world.

 

[Curiosity]

ITN: Condoms suck!

Ouchie! Does it hurt???

 

[tracy]

Condoms suck.

Not as much as abstinence or a baby. :wave:

 

[I think not]

ITN: Condoms suck!

Ouchie! Does it hurt???

Not really, but trying to put one on in the heat of the moment, well can be a turn off. :laughing7:

Not as much as abstinence or a baby. :wave:

I like babies. :wave:

 

[Ariadne]

Nowhere did I say that if you dissagree, you were wrong. But the reasons you dissagree are based on bigotry not legal equality.

There are a number of other posters that do not agree with my view, yet they understand where my view is coming from, for the most part, as I understand their's. Your point of view is based on hysteria and ignorance, not facts or even emotion.

So what you hate men, one got ya good, get over it. Try some "woman power" or something. Stop blaming all men becuase your choice in men was flawed. Move on.

I did not say anything that remotely looks like what you just accused me of again. I merely ask, why the imbalance in equality, I have not advocted for forced anything, I have merely ask why not.

Please, either read objectively or learn to read.

So you think maybe I'm a misandrist? Actually, I adore men. I do, however, have a problem with men that don't want to take repsonsibility for their actions. Clearly we see this issue differently. When there is a pregnancy, both partners should do whatever they can to help. Some women have morals that prevent them from having an abortion, so that leaves everyone needing a compromise. I have to ask ... is it really true that you argue against abortion - I mean as the devil's advocate, of course?

 

[Kreskin]

So you think maybe I'm a misandrist? Actually, I adore men. I do, however, have a problem with men that don't want to take repsonsibility for their actions. Clearly we see this issue differently. When there is a pregnancy, both partners should do whatever they can to help. Some women have morals that prevent them from having an abortion, so that leaves everyone needing a compromise. I have to ask ... is it really true that you argue against abortion - I mean as the devil's advocate, of course?

Look at the first sentence of this thread:

I have always lived by the rule, that as a man I have no right to tell a woman, what to do with her body. From looks to abortion, it is not my body, I have no right to force my beliefs on it.

His beliefs are apparently different from the beliefs of the law, that women are free to choose. He has just lived with it, keeping his mouth shut. What he is saying is, he has not approved of abortion rights but has not told her what to do. The woman having ther ability to make her own biological decisions has left him feeling powerless. Therefore, to feel more equal he will wave his feelings about abortion and hold her, more specifically a child (his child) ransom to a game of equality. A spiteful outlook.

Therefore, he can show that women who don't agree with abortion are being penalized/punished by those who want to have biological rights. He can pull out a little gender scoreboard and chalk one up for the men. So, if women want rights they'll have to pay for it. All of them, just because. And if it hurts his own kid, so be it.

 

[Ariadne]

Look at the first sentence of this thread:



His beliefs are apparently different from the beliefs of the law, that women are free to choose. He has just lived with it, keeping his mouth shut. What he is saying is, he has not approved of abortion rights but has not told her what to do. The woman having ther ability to make her own biological decisions has left him feeling powerless. Therefore, to feel more equal he will wave his feelings about abortion and hold her, more specifically a child (his child) ransom to a game of equality. A spiteful outlook.

Therefore, he can show that women who don't agree with abortion are being penalized/punished by those who want to have biological rights. He can pull out a little gender scoreboard and chalk one up for the men. So, if women want rights they'll have to pay for it. All of them, just because. And if it hurts his own kid, so be it.

I agree. It is difficult to argue that one cannot force their will on another but then to say that a woman should have an abortion or raise the child alone.

 

[Kreskin]

I'm pro choice but I'm not pro encouraging it. I support the right because I don't support slavery. Why would anyone want to do this?

Why would anyone say that since women have this option they won't support their own flesh and blood if she elects not to do this?

 

[talloola]

too late

both mother and father to-be cannott whine and complain about any of the misery that comes with an
unwanted pregnancy, irrespective of their age - teens or adults.

I've heard it all, "but we only did it once" - "I thought she was on the pill" - "he didn't pull out soon enough"
"the condom failed" - "we were drinking, and didn't think" - "but I don't love her/him" -

NONE OF THOSE THINGS MEAN "SQUAT",

suck it up "all of you in that position" and just move forward, take responsibility, and it doesn't matter
how "poor" either one of you feel, and how much you will have to give up, and how your plans for your
future are ruined, I don't feel sorry for any of you, irresponsibility comes in many forms, and unplanned
paranthood is just one of them, SO GET ON WITH IT, there is a new human being on the way, and that
little unborn being is the only things that matters "now".

I'm so sick of hearing all the whining and complaining, the woman becomes so vulnerable, and the
man is getting "ripped" off, what a bunch of crap.

you reep what you sew

Noone should be complaining about how the "other one" has the advantage, just do what you have to
do to care for, and nourish your child, if your with it, or not, it doesn't matter, this is your child, and
it needs care, financial and otherwise.

Everything seems always to be about 'ME ME ME"

 

[CDNBear]

Well seeing as emotion and personlizing the issue is now the course of action here, even participated in by the mods, I think this debate is over as far as I'm concerned.

If you would like to go back to the beginning and try doing this again using a rule of law and a measure of maturity. I'll be glad to particapate.

For the record, just once again for those of you that can not read or read objectively.

I put forth an arguement for discussion, it does not necessarily reflect my beliefs...oh forget it, what's the point, with the expressed maturity and under developed hyper emotion shown by several of the parties that do not want to discuss this rationaly or intellegently, including a mod, there really is no debate, just pointing fingures and reading into commentary to extract what you want.

Grow up.

Thanx for the laughs and exposing the hypocracy.