Whom precisely are we trying to help in Afghanistan?
- Thread starter Machjo
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From the NY Times
Quote:
"WASHINGTON — President Obama declared in an interview that the United States was not winning the war in Afghanistan and opened the door to a reconciliation process in which the American military would reach out to moderate elements of the Taliban, much as it did with Sunni militias in Iraq."
Quote:
"WASHINGTON — President Obama declared in an interview that the United States was not winning the war in Afghanistan and opened the door to a reconciliation process in which the American military would reach out to moderate elements of the Taliban, much as it did with Sunni militias in Iraq."
Funny, when 900 soldiers were killed in 11 hours at Dieppe in 1942, no on claimed it was an unwinnable war. The problem with our society today is that it has no backbone. 112 soldiers killed in 7 years utterly pales in comparison to the casualties this Country has sustained in all the preceeding wars. The thing I love the most however, is the people who claim that the war in unwinnable, or that we shouldn't be in Afghanistan, but really have no idea A. what the war is really about, or B. what goes on in that Country. Reading the "news", and understanding the conflict and it's dynamics are two different things. Yes it's a tragedy when soldiers are killed, however they joined the Army of their own volition, we do not conscript, ergo they all knew what they were doing when they signed up. Ultimately our Nation and it's people are weak willed in my opinion. I would really like for someone to explain to me in their OWN words why we're in an unwinnable war?
Comparing WWI and Afghanistan is more than a bit ridiculous
One was an all out effort to win against an enemy that shared our morals, values and ethics and the latter is an effort to bring stability and change to an area of the world that is completely different from our moral and value system, hence unwinnable.
The war in Afghanistan is not about "winning". There is no prize at the end. Fighting the Afghanis (whatever faction is conveniant at the time) is not the problem. The war could be won in a few months. Holding the area is delusional. Changing Afghanistan to be "like Canada" is totally unrealistic as they are
1/ Islamic
2/ basically an agrarian society
3/ have a far different "coda" than any western political entity
It'd be like Canada being over run by Iran. It's possible, but would we turn and remain Islamic? High unlikely
I don't disagree.......except on one point......the definition of "winning".
If we demonstrate our resolve and our ability by killing Taliban, if we improve the lives of the average Afghan however slightly, and most importantly, if we prevent Afghanistan from once again becoming the gathering place, training centre, and staging area for terrorist attacks the world over, then we are "winning".
Because we have defeatist & cowardly politicians who are quick to get us into a war (as long as their families don't have to go), and when things go bad say ok we cannot win this lets go home. What they do not understand is that when we leave the land and people will be in a worse position than before we arrived. We can win, just take a little more positive attitude on our part and give the troops what ever they need to win.
The additional numbers of troops would be prohibitive for any nation.
To look at it with an unemotional and apolitical view. It would take upwards of 200,000 troops to "win" the battle and if enough battles are won, the war will be won. It really wouldn't take more than a couple of months
The problem (and always has been with Afghanistan) is to hold onto and enforce the "gains" realized by the war over the long term.
that would mean leaving upwards of 50,000 troops in Afghanistan for up to 10 years. NO country is willing to do that (not the US, UK, Canada or Austrailia)
The war in Afghanistan is being fought to instill a foreign (and in some cases incomprehensible to the average Afghani) doctorine into a country that just doesn't want it no matter how much we want them to have it.
If we demonstrate our resolve and our ability by killing Taliban,
If we killed every single Taliban man, woman and child (and that's what it would take), we would then create a vacumn for the warlords and tribal chieftians. Within months Afghanistan would be far worse off than it was under the Taliban who provided some semblance of "normalcy" even though you may disagree with that
...and within months, we would have to inject another 50,000 trooops to do battle with the warlords.
There IS NO SOLUTION OR WAY TO "WIN" THE WAR....
It was a constant in the War in Vietnam that the Americans said "they never lost a battle". They just lost the war.
The same situation applies in Afghanistan but one a much more polarized level. The Vietnamese weren't as diametrically oppossed to the Caucasian value system as the Afghani's are
The same situation applies in Afghanistan but one a much more polarized level. The Vietnamese weren't as diametrically oppossed to the Caucasian value system as the Afghani's are
There are no good answers here.
To leave is bad.
To stay is bad.
A failed state, however, often is a base for terrorism, like Somalia is for the pirates and al Qaeda, which means "the base" in arabic.
Keeping them running, staying at it with no win for either might be the only result we can achieve until the situation updates itself with new unforseen dynamics.
To leave is bad.
To stay is bad.
A failed state, however, often is a base for terrorism, like Somalia is for the pirates and al Qaeda, which means "the base" in arabic.
Keeping them running, staying at it with no win for either might be the only result we can achieve until the situation updates itself with new unforseen dynamics.
I love when you guys start comparing every single conflict with Vietnam........it is just silly. First the First Gulf War was the "new Vietnam".......but they kicked ass, then the invasion of Iraq was the "new Vietnam".....but that situation has stablized, now Afghanistan will be the "new Vietnam". Baloney.
COMPLETELY different situation.
First of all, in Vietnam the Americans were facing two opponents, an insurgency in South Vietnam, and North Vietnam, backed to the hilt by the other superpower, the USSR.
In Afghanistan they are facing an insurgency...........one that is backed only covertly by anyone.......
In Vietnam the USA stood basically alone, with help from very few countries, Australia and Korea being the other "major" players.
In Afghanistan, the USA has the aid of NATO.......more or less.
In Vietnam the USA used a poorly trained conscript army....in which the private soldier served for only one year in country, and officers served only 6 months.
In Afghanistan, the USA has a well trained professional military, in which the soldiers have no set tour.
In Vietnam, the American people rose up in protest, demonstrating by the hundreds of thousands.......over and over, and voted in Nixon on his promise of "peace with honor".
Afghanistan has registered hardly a peep from the US public.....they overwhelmingly support allied efforts there.
In Vietnam, at the height of the war early in 1968, the USA had 569,000 troops in country.
In Aghanistan...........after Obama's surge, there will be 10% of that number....about 60,000 in country.
Shall I go on?
Anyone comparing Afghanistan and Vietnam convinces me of only one thing: they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
We do not have to kill every living Taliban, they themselves are not united and are broken up into groups/tribes what ever you want to call them. The extra 17,000 or so U.S. Marines they are sending, if left to do their job can do it, with the other support that is there. They did it once before and can do it again. Do you want or do not care if the Taliban who mutilate women, children, punish or kill non believers, destroy ancient artifacts back in power. You have no idea what these people are capable of, I do. We are there now, lets finish the job.
YES WE CAN WIN. We blew it once, not again.
YES WE CAN WIN. We blew it once, not again.
in Vietnam the Americans were facing two opponents, an insurgency in South Vietnam, and North Vietnam
Much like the Gov't of Afghanistan - The Taliban and Al Queda. Some difference, smaller marbles backed by Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia... need I go on?
In Vietnam the USA stood basically alone, with help from very few countries, Australia and Korea being the other "major" players.
In Afghanistan, the USA has the aid of NATO.......more or less.
The US is pretty much on their own on this one too. Minor casting by Canada and a few NATO reservists
Anyone comparing Afghanistan and Vietnam convinces me of only one thing: they don't have a clue what they are talking about
Geez, I forgot, you have a BA in history. Most people have the same knowledge only they do it as a hobby. Kinda like stamp collecting
The situational parallels are many and the results in Afghanistan will be the same as they were in Vietnam
Do you want or do not care if the Taliban who mutilate women, children, punish or kill non believers, destroy ancient artifacts back in power. You have no idea what these people are capable of, I do. We are there now, lets finish the job.
YES WE CAN WIN. We blew it once, not again.
I do care about a peace that is not forced upon the Afghani's by an illegal invader, whether it be Russian, American, Iranian or Pakistani
I fully understand what they are capable of and it's pretty much what the USA is capable of - tyranny
"We" never blew it. We never had it
Anyone who is a blind American sychophant and who's concept of military doctorine makes a mockery of any miltary strategy and is sadly dificient in historical comparisons
"We never had it" We had it, then left the clean up to NATO (BIG Mistake) while we went off to Iraq. I admit Afghanistan was our lost, never should have left before we were finished.
never should have left before we were finished... We had it
If you weren't "finished" (whatever that suppossed to entail), how did you ever "have it?"
Don't sweat it Ironhead. Nobody actually likes having their mistakes pointed out to them