Who owns the land you live on, you or the Natives?

[FascistCanuck]

Re: RE: Who owns the land you live on, you or the Natives?

It was invaded by Europeans looking to expand.It was lost in the "Indian wars of the late 1700's and early 1800's. Anymore questions? I smoke bella donna.

So 'colonising' the New World is considered an 'invasion'? What of the immigrants arriving in the white homelands of Europe? Strange when the non-whites of the world emigrating from their homelands to the white homelands of Europe it is called 'IMMIGRATION'. Yet when the whites did the same thing centuries ago when they emigrated from their homelands to the New World, it is an INVASION. I see. Such wonderful and racist logic.
Using your logic then, as my family is from Britain, I could demand that all non-whites leave OUR lands? Oh no but that would be racist now would it not??? Britain after all is OUR land. Not the Chinese. Not the Pakistanis. Not the blacks. OURS. So the 'natives' of Canada want their cake and eat it too yes? Well. If we must 'return' their lands then I would expect that all non-whites leave Britian.

 

[Outta here]

This thread is taking on quite an offensive tone.

There has already been one polite request by a mod towards a participant in this discussion to keep things civil.

Wallyj and Fascist Canuck - since you're both rather new I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were not aware of the gentle prod that was being offered, so I'll be a little more clear for you. Please refrain from making any comments that are in any way offensive or insulting towards other members of this board. Keep your discussion related to the topic and not directed at any one in an insulting or derogatory manner on the thread. If you find another person's posts offensive, you are welcome to use the xreport feature to inform us and we will deal directly with the offending post. Any further hostile posts will be edited or deleted without notice.

Regards,
Zan
Moderator

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Misinterpretation of my Post

:!: Points of Order

FascistCanuck, I think perhaps you have misinterpreted my post, entirely. I thought that my post had been quite respectful of your opinions — my sincere apologies if that is not the case. In terms of "my" Web site, it should be made quite clear that I am neither an Administrator, nor a Moderator. I only brought forth a concern that some members might have construed you as misrepresenting the administration or one of the moderators of these forums through overloading colours.

As for "taking sides", I did no such thing; I simply said that I recognize every citizen's right to protest, and at the same time I denounced unlawful activity associated with improper protesting. Please read my posts in their entirety before you decide to respond with that tone. I would suggest that you should take on a less confrontational attitude if you intend to keep any degree of welcome among the membership.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Re: RE: Who owns the land you

What a thread! An (Arab?)hyphen-Canadian, a Scandinavian, a Fascist, and an Aboriginal who speaks about aboriginals in the third person all debating land rights.

WHO OWNS THE LAND; YOU OR THE NATIVES? was the original question.

Here's my answer, basing myself on what I consider to be a legal approach to things.
As mentioned above, the terms of the contract determine who owns the land. Given that many of the terms were negotiated hundreds of years ago, what is likely needed in the case is arbitration by legal experts in the area of historical evolution of legal matters. A good place to start finding such people would be the men and women who edited Quebec's Civil Code and published the up-to-date version in 1994.
The idea is to consider the legal context of the time, while adapting for modern changes.
In this case, the questions would be: "what laws regulated contracts in 1835 ? What about leases, and other real-estate law?"
Then, the laws would be contextualized to today. For instance, while debtors prisons may have been in existence in Canada in 1835 (can't pay? = go to jail), we obviously don't accept that idea any more unless there is some sort of fraud at the root of a bankruptcy. Thus if Canada owes the First Nations money or vice-versa, obviously no one will go to jail.

There has been genocide against Amerinds, at least cultural if anything. First Nations children were forced by the Canadian government to go to Church-run schools in an effort to destroy the First Nations' culture, language etc.
However, Socrates the Greek, you make your arguments sound weak by repeating uninformed cliches about the downtrodden First Nations abused by their chiefs, stuck on glue by the white man, and about occupation of the Palestinians. For example, I read in a newspaper about this white woman who went to teach on a reserve, and fled after a while because she was getting death threats. Legally and logically, the only people responsible for issuing those threats were those who issued them. You can influence someone, but ultimately, only the criminally insance are absolved of responsibility for their own actions.

Getting back to Caledonia: the law along with legal experts in the historical evolution of law can determine who owns the land (though if the terms were verbal, then obviously there's going to be some difficulty). There has been genocide against First Nations, but that's not really related to the matter at hand (unless I'm missing something that was implied above?). Finally, Socrates (the Amerind?), you may care to speak in the first person, using proper grammar, and without repeating tired, disproven cliches.

Attempting to pull the natives into the current century by sending them to schools WE paid for is genocide?? WTF? That is not genocide people. That is called 'civilising' them. They barely had a written language. They had no clue about metals. We dragged them kicking and screaming into our century.

As for treaties and such ballyhoo, I would suggest all be considered null and void. Put me in the Canada's ultimate seat of power and I will destroy all treaties. Why? Their claims are irrelevant in this day and age. Canada is for Canadians. The natives are welcome to join with our Canadian society, but do NOT force your ways to become the only ways for your people. I would suggest all reservations be razed to the ground and all natives be absorbed into Canada's population. Unity of this great nation must be FORCED. Multiculturalism is a failure. It must be eradicated. Multiculturalism is a dividing force. You would suggest we seek to divide this great country? Why? We must UNITE Canada. The aboriginals are a divisive force. They must be dealt with and immediately.

 

[wallyj]

Zan,the reason I responded to jersay with jerkass is because he implied I was a total moron and also wrote "f**k all of you" in his reply to my post. I will do my best to play by your rules but sometimes I do not like to turn the other cheek.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Re: Misinterpretation of my Post

:!: Points of Order

FascistCanuck, I think perhaps you have misinterpreted my post, entirely. I thought that my post had been quite respectful of your opinions — my sincere apologies if that is not the case. In terms of "my" Web site, it should be made quite clear that I am neither an Administrator, nor a Moderator. I only brought forth a concern that some members might have construed you as misrepresenting the administration or one of the moderators of these forums through overloading colours.

As for "taking sides", I did no such thing; I simply said that I recognize every citizen's right to protest, and at the same time I denounced unlawful activity associated with improper protesting. Please read my posts in their entirety before you decide to respond with that tone. I would suggest that you should take on a less confrontational attitude if you intend to keep any degree of welcome among the membership.

Don't EVER threaten a fascist. You are neither an Admin nor a Moderator. As such, I would suggest you take your threats elsewhere. I honestly could care less if others 'misconstrued' me as 'misrepresenting' the Admins or Moderators. As I am doing no such thing, your post is rendered moot. You are making an accusation when there is cause for none.
WTF is 'overloading' colours? Truly you are being ridiculous. This board is the ONLY board I have ever dealt with that bothers with such things. At every single board I have visited, colour of my text is irrelevant as should be the case here. If my using red would suggest to others that I may be either an Admin or a Moderator, I fail to see where this is my problem??? As I have never stated anything to the effect that I am an Admin or a Moderator whether the others see me as such, that is THEIR problem. I ask again, WTF does colour have to do with anything? I ask kindly that you refrain from any further ridiculous posts. They grow annoying.

 

[selfactivated]

oooooooooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm ooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm*breath in* *breath out*

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: RE: Who owns the land you

Attempting to pull the natives into the current century by sending them to schools WE paid for is genocide?? WTF? That is not genocide people. That is called 'civilising' them. They barely had a written language. They had no clue about metals. We dragged them kicking and screaming into our century.

:!: Non-author Revision : Removed formatting.

That fact that some members here would not only condone, but would be advocates for the residential school tragedy that decimated our relationship with Native Canadians, is in my opinion, reprehensible. Many of these Native Canadians were abused in these institutions, and the ends do not justify the means. The residential school system was an abject failure, and should be denounced on both sides.

FascistCanuck[/i]]As for treaties and such ballyhoo, I would suggest all be considered null and void. Put me in the Canada's ultimate seat of power and I will destroy all treaties. Why? Their claims are irrelevant in this day and age. Canada is for Canadians. The natives are welcome to join with our Canadian society, but do NOT force your ways to become the only ways for your people. I would suggest all reservations be razed to the ground and all natives be absorbed into Canada's population. Unity of this great nation must be FORCED. Multiculturalism is a failure. It must be eradicated. Multiculturalism is a dividing force. You would suggest we seek to divide this great country? Why? We must UNITE Canada. The aboriginals are a divisive force. They must be dealt with and immediately.

:!: Non-author Revision : Removed formatting.

I don't agree.

They are not a "divisive force", they are a people who have been decimated by Canada. While that does not give them the right to ask for whatever land they would like and expect to have it without proper debate, discussion, compromise and the development of an understanding, that does mean that they have just as much a right (if not moreso) to reside on this land than the rest of Canadians do. As for the suggestion that Canada should abolish its treaties with our aboriginal peoples, I would hope that our back-up institutions of the Parliament of Canada would do everything in their power to block any such attempts.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Misinterpretation of my Post

Don't EVER threaten a fascist.

Don't EVER piss off a gay guy in chemo.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Re: RE: Who owns the land you

Attempting to pull the natives into the current century by sending them to schools WE paid for is genocide?? WTF? That is not genocide people. That is called 'civilising' them. They barely had a written language. They had no clue about metals. We dragged them kicking and screaming into our century.

:!: Non-author Revision : Removed formatting.

That fact that some members here would not only condone, but would be advocates for the residential school tragedy that decimated our relationship with Native Canadians, is in my opinion, reprehensible. Many of these Native Canadians were abused in these institutions, and the ends do not justify the means. The residential school system was an abject failure, and should be denounced on both sides.

FascistCanuck[/i]]As for treaties and such ballyhoo, I would suggest all be considered null and void. Put me in the Canada's ultimate seat of power and I will destroy all treaties. Why? Their claims are irrelevant in this day and age. Canada is for Canadians. The natives are welcome to join with our Canadian society, but do NOT force your ways to become the only ways for your people. I would suggest all reservations be razed to the ground and all natives be absorbed into Canada's population. Unity of this great nation must be FORCED. Multiculturalism is a failure. It must be eradicated. Multiculturalism is a dividing force. You would suggest we seek to divide this great country? Why? We must UNITE Canada. The aboriginals are a divisive force. They must be dealt with and immediately.

:!: Non-author Revision : Removed formatting.

I don't agree.

They are not a "divisive force", they are a people who have been decimated by Canada. While that does not give them the right to ask for whatever land they would like and expect to have it without proper debate, discussion, compromise and the development of an understanding, that does mean that they have just as much a right (if not moreso) to reside on this land than the rest of Canadians do. As for the suggestion that Canada should abolish its treaties with our aboriginal peoples, I would hope that our back-up institutions of the Parliament of Canada would do everything in their power to block any such attempts.

Whatever do you mean these people were 'DECIMATED BY CANADA'? Are you suggesting perhaps the individuals of Canada sought to kill them all off? You do realise this would be considered slander as it is the furthest thing from the truth? Do not EVER suggest to me these aboriginals have 'more' right to live in Canada than any Canadian. I absolutely ridicule and deride any such notion. I no more believe the aboriginal standing next to a white Canadian born in this very country has more 'RIGHT' to the country than the white person. I expect that ALL may enjoy this beautiful country that is Canada. I ask that ALL Canadians enjoy the great nation that is Canada EQUALLY. The natives have absolutely no more right to this country than any Canadian who was born in this country. I would ensure all Canadians ths right, even at gunpoint. I will NOT tolerate chaos, division etc.

It is high time we absorbed the natives into the general Canadian population. This way the natives would have access to an entire NATION rather than just tiny parcels of land. Which is the better deal?

 

[FiveParadox]

RE: Native Land

Unless I am mistaken, FascistCanuck (I can see, at this point, that you made quite a wise choice for a username during the registration process), Native Canadians have the right to move wherever they wish within Canada. The reserves are just that — "reserved" land. Do you deny that there were abuses that occurred in the residential school system that should be denounced, or do you indeed condone that abuse, as a means to an end?

 

[FiveParadox]

FascistCanuck, I don't understand why you're acting so offended. I raised a concern over using a colour that is used by moderators and administrators by convention, you acknolwedged my concern, and we have moved on. The topic is over and done with. As for the term "overloading", you're going to have to forgive me on that one. It's a Java programming term (I'm studying Java right now), which sort of means, more or less, to "double up" on something.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Re: RE: Native Land

Unless I am mistaken, FascistCanuck (I can see, at this point, that you made quite a wise choice for a username during the registration process), Native Canadians have the right to move wherever they wish within Canada. The reserves are just that — "reserved" land. Do you deny that there were abuses that occurred in the residential school system that should be denounced, or do you indeed condone that abuse, as a means to an end?

I absolutely do not deny such abuses may have occurred although I would need to see proof naturally. If the proof holds up under scrutiny, then those responsible for such abuses would be dealt with harshly as you are aware of how adept we fascists would be at things. I would never seek to condone such abuse, not even as a means to an end. Absolutely not. Fascism is not about allowing our future to be abused in such a manner. Such activities would be stamped out with severe consequences.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Re: RE: Who owns the land you live on, you or the Natives?

Come on now,20 million in N.a. pre-contact. I call bullshit on that. Where did that come from,your elders pass it on? FYI,there was a war and the natives lost. They signed treaties to stop the war and keep thier people from being completely eradicated. They own thier reserve land and that is it. They have no proof of a lease,no one can even say how long the lease was to last. NO proof at all.every time I hear tradition and culture I cringe because I know they are looking for another hand-out.The caledonia land was sold in 1842 and there is documents proving this fact.The police should arrest anyone that blockades a public road,right off the bat.

What type of war was it? Was it an invasion? How, the white race took on the Indian who had been on the shores of the country and all over the country for centuries? The first settlers on Canadian soil obviously from Europe back then, they declared war against a people the Indians of a land they were born on? Go west young man kill if you have too in order to get ahead. That is exactly what the early settlers did, through aggression insured a sit in the western theatre back then, a theatre that wasn’t theirs. That my fellow Canadians is a sad case of abuse. The feds never insisted that the federal allowance be specifically distributed with out these allowances to touch some of the corrupt abusive chiefs. Both the Feds and the Native Chiefs are at fault for allowing a young generation to go to waist on glue and gut wrought alcohol.
“FACT IS FACT HE WHO ARGUS WITH TRUE FACT DOSE SO FOR SELF SERVING REASONS” which doesn’t do anything for a healthy discussion, my dear Canadian friends.

 

[wallyj]

So,I guess any expansion by any nation throughout time is abuse? Wow,the compensation claims will be huge,and the lawyers will be richer.All of Mexico and south america should be suing the spanish and portugese.I argue using true fact,you use revised fact and try for sympathy. This is why we will have many more CaledoniasThe feds are at fault for never insisting the chiefs and council didn't steal!! What crap.

 

[FiveParadox]

RE: Residential Schools

No, wallyj, not all expansion is abuse. However, the residential school system, which accompanied the expansion of Canada, quite certainly was abuse, and it should be denounced as such.

 

[cdn_bc_ca]

RE: Who owns the land you

FacistCanuck,

while your heavy-handed methods may prove to be effective in solving the problem of Native land claims, you will most likely be creating many many more problems both domestic and foreign.

You should also consider the consequences of your proposed actions. What do you think is going to happen when you bring your tanks in and introduce the Natives to the "butt of your gun?" Do you think they will just stand there and take it? Do you think they are all unarmed and unable to fight back? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there will casualties on both sides. There will be even more with your solution for Quebec. Sure, in the end you will come out on top, but at what price? How will the international community treat you? How will the rest of Canada treat you? (And don't tell me that Canada's going to thank you because just based on the responses in this thread, you don't have much support).

You should have learned in Social Studies that fascist leaders don't last very long.

 

[wallyj]

F.P.,nice switch,I have never once mentioned the res.schools. But I am quite used to people changing the subject when they are beaten by facts.If the natives spent as much effort on educating themselves and thier children as they do playing victim and pursuing bogus land claims they would be much farther ahead. BTW,the schools also did alot of good for the natives,most successful natives today,that I know, were raised off-reserve and in many cases by white people.Nowadays,it is virtually impossible to adopt a native child because of racist laws implemented by the natives. They do not want any children to have any contact or comparison with the real world. I would strongly suggest that all native children and even the adults read and heed the fable,"the goose and the golden egg". Right now I cannot imagine many companies wanting to invest any monies anywhere near a reserve.The bottom line is colour-blind.

 

[Jersay]

Residential schools did good. Being raised by white people was good.

Companies don't want to deal with reserves. Say that to B.C where they want resources out of the reserves or in the NWT or Yukon where there are discussions right now about the diamonds they are subtracting from the ground.

 

[bluealberta]

You are an occupier of the land. You don't own anything. You occupy the land from another people that you do genocide against and still do. And if you rent you do not own your property, you are just a squattor residing there until you are kicked out for another renter. And if you have to pay the bank well you don't own your home.

The only true Canadian are the aboriginals and you can get out.

Sorry Jersay, that is not right. I own my land, my father owned his land, and my grandfather owned his land. Over the years, tax money has been contributed by me, my father, and my grandfather, to pay for the purchase of this land. In addition, tax money has been collected and spent on free education, and free medical services.

Whether the treaties are valid is somewhat a moot point at this point. They are there, and both sides need to honor them. I do have another question, though. Part of the reason the Native community uses to dispute the treaties is because they claim they did not understand the white mans laws and regulations. If we sign agreements today, does this mean in another 100 years or so, Natives at that time will claim more, because they claim that Natives in 2006 did not understand?

Treaties written over 100 years ago cannot be compared using present day norms. Personally, I would much prefer to see a one time pay out to every Native in the country, make sure that each family gets their share of their respective reservations in land, and call it a day. Abolish the reserves, allow the natives to do what they will with their land, and make sure they all have enough money to move forward, having to pay taxes like everyone else, being able to buy and sell their properties. I grow weary of continual native claims that all their problems are the fault of white men.