Who Is Jesus?

Pangloss

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Site the relevant scripture.

Um, it's cite, and I'll get back to you after lunch. Meanwhile, perhaps you can address my questions.

Nice attempt to dodge. Too bad it didn't work.

How's about it? Wanna step up and answer my original questions? The ones you said you could. . .

Pangloss
 

Dexter Sinister

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Site the relevant scripture.
The site, and the cite:

Matthew 5:18-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
 

gerryh

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How can anyone believe in the bible of the christians when it contradicts itself, misses so much obvious truth, get things wrong and plagiarizes most of the good stories?

Read Gilgamesh for the story of the flood.

Where did Cain and Abel's wives come from?

Why isn't slavery, rape or incest listed in the 10 commandments?

Plate tectonics? The germ theory of disease? DNA? Electromagnetism?

Did "God" or Jesus not know of these things? If they were omniscient why did they keep these things a secret?

Who was Jesus? Some crazy guy from a deeply crazy part of the world.

Buncha bullpuckey.

Pangloss



There are "flood stories" from many many different sources. This does not "discount" the biblical interpratation.


Where did Cain and Abels wives come from? You need a lesson in procreation now? Catholisism does not discount the fact that there wasn't ONLY Adam and Eve. The story of the garden is just that, a story. With moralistic lessons. Every story in the Bible is a lesson to be learned. It is a rough History of the Jewish people with Lesson's that are still of value today.

Why do you want to see slavery, incest, and rape listed in the 10 commandments? God gave us 10 Commandments to live our life by and the ability to think for ourselves and choose between right and wrong. If we choose wrong, then that is our problem not His. Everything else is pretty well common sese, no? Incest begats genetically inferior children, I don't think I need to tell you why rape is bad, and slavery is still common in many parts of the world, but man is slowly seeing the error of his ways in that regard.

You want to tell me who, from 2000, 3000, 4000 or more years ago would have understood plate techtonics etc, or would have needed to know? We've managed to figure these things out on our own, that would be the ability to think for ourselves. Aren't you glad God gave us that ability?

Mathew explains who Jesus was and is. Give it a read.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Or you can take the opposite view:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 7:4, 6 Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
 

Pangloss

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Dexter:

I'm not going to contradict you, instead I'll let the bible of the christians contradict itself:

Matthew 5:17-18: "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am come not to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be filfilled."

That was the big guy, Jesus himself, being quoted.

Gerryh: By your logic, murder doesn't need to be in the Decalogue, either. BTW, there is more slavery now in the world than at any time in human history. . .

Yeah, about the flood story - it is still ripped off from other cultures, and is still impossible and prima facie wrong.

Plate tectonics would have been great to know - it would have proved that God knew something we didn't already.

Germ theory of disease? Didn't bother with that one, huh? I understand.

As for reading Matthew, look where my Jesus quote was cited from.

Learn your own bible, gerryh - aren't you the christian here?

Pangloss
 
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darkbeaver

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They provide the basis on which Paul is able to make his stand against James (jesus)-is able to extol the supremacy of faith, while James extols the supremacy of the Law.

pg288 The Dead Sea Scrolls Desception (1991) Letter to the Romans (1:17) Letter to the Calatians (3:11)

Christians are actually Paulines and not Christians and Jesus is James.

Qumran was the Damascus Saul/Paul was on the way to when he had his little ephifeny, he was a double agent who was spirited out of the ME just after the revolt got underway, he is responsible for the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus who quite likely never existed but was a cover for James who did exist and is supported in original books/gospels found at Qumran they differ from the bible in some very interesting ways.
 
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Pangloss

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Dexter:

I never saw the post where you did my citing for me - thanks, bro. My lunch was good. . .

gerryh: Man why don't you just cry "Uncle" and get it over with? Your bible makes no sense and you are not capable of defending your hypothesis.

This is getting boring. Kinda like playing tag with an amputee.

Pangloss
 

gerryh

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The site, and the cite:

Matthew 5:18-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


read the entire chapter and then interprete the above sections based on the entire chapter. The quotes above do not mean what you all are implying.


Like I said....why explain to those that deride and misinterpret. It's a waste of my time. Scriptures are quoted out of context to make a point AGAINST Christ.


I consider myself a Christian because I believe in Christ. I TRY to follow his words, not the words of the pretenders that came after. The OT has been superceded by Christs teachings. At the last supper Jesus said that he has brought a "new and everlasting covanant". This covenent then supercedes previous covenents made with man. The only thing that Jesus brought forward from the OT was the 10 comandments. In Mathew, Jesus explains to his disciples some of the changes his coming has made. No more "an eye for an eye" etc., it's all there for those that are willing to read and understand.

Do not mistake the laws of man brought forward as laws from God, such as are in Leviticus, but read what Christ has to say.
 

Pangloss

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I agree....come back when you have both arms.

Well now gerryh:

Is this one of the aspects of your faith? "If I just say it and believe really hard, it MUST be true."

You have failed to back up a single one of your claims, you have failed to falsify a single one of any one else's claims, and yet you declare yourself the "winner"?

You certainly do have a future in politics, gerryh.

Pangloss
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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release the lions
The current Holy Bible quotes the Book of Enoch numerous times:



By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. - Hebrews 11:5



Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."- Jude 1:14-15



The Book of Enoch was considered scripture by most early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The second century Epistle of Barnabus makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers," such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria, all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church included the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. However, this and many other books became discredited after the Roman Council of Laodicea. Being under ban of the Roman Papal authorities, afterwards they gradually passed out of circulation.



At about the time of the Protestant Reformation, there was a renewed interest in the Book of Enoch, which had long since been lost to the modern world. By the late 1400's, rumors began to spread that a copy of the long lost Book of Enoch might still exist. During this time, many books arose claiming to be the lost book but were later found to be forgeries.



The return of the Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821, Richard Laurence published the first English translation. The now famous R.H. Charles edition was first published by Oxford Press in 1912. In the following years, several portions of the Greek text also surfaced. Then, with the discovery of cave number four of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered.



Within the Book of Enoch is revealed one of the mysteries of Babylon concerning the seven mountains she sits upon (underlining has been added):



[CHAPTER 52] 2 There mine eyes saw all the secret things of heaven that shall be; a mountain of iron, a mountain of copper, a mountain of silver, a mountain of gold, a mountain of soft metal, and a mountain of lead.



6 These [6] mountains which thine eyes have seen: The mountain of iron, the mountain of copper, the mountain of silver, the mountain of gold, the mountain of soft metal, and the mountain of lead. All these shall be in the presence of the Elect One as wax: Before the fire, like the water which streams down from above upon those mountains, and they shall become powerless before his feet. 7 It shall come to pass in those days that none shall be saved, either by gold or by silver, and none be able to escape. 8 There shall be no iron for war, nor shall one clothe oneself with a breastplate. Bronze shall be of no service, tin shall be of no service and shall not be esteemed, and lead shall not be desired. 9 All these things shall be denied and destroyed from the surface of the earth when the Elect One shall appear before the face of the Lord of Spirits.’
 

Pangloss

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I just read your response to Dexter, gerryh.

Man I gotta thank you - you sure do make me laugh. There is nothing like stone-stubborn sophistry to brighten my afternoon.

How is it that you present yourself as the resident authority on scripture and christianity and yet get your own books' exegesis so very wrong?

Too many books have been written on the subject, too many people way smarter than you have parsed the verses in question and come to the same conclusion for your simple gainsaying to have any weight.

Since you are coming up with the alternate theory of what those verses mean, I'll leave it to you to say what they are about, and why you think so.

Otherwise, you will simply look like you are dodging the truth.

Again.

Pangloss

(do you make this stuff up as you go, or is there some handbook of crazy sitting beside your computer?)
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Well now gerryh:

Is this one of the aspects of your faith? "If I just say it and believe really hard, it MUST be true."

You have failed to back up a single one of your claims, you have failed to falsify a single one of any one else's claims, and yet you declare yourself the "winner"?

You certainly do have a future in politics, gerryh.

Pangloss



That is what Faith is...believing without the need for "hard proof".

I really don't need to back up any of my "claims". As far as falsifying others claims....I did...you all took the quotes out of context. You can say you didn't...I say you did....and I really don't give a **** if you agree or not. Basically, when it comes to MY Faith...I'm right, you're wrong, tough ****.
 

Pangloss

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That is what Faith is...believing without the need for "hard proof".

I really don't need to back up any of my "claims". As far as falsifying others claims....I did...you all took the quotes out of context. You can say you didn't...I say you did....and I really don't give a **** if you agree or not. Basically, when it comes to MY Faith...I'm right, you're wrong, tough ****.

Ladies and gentlemen, the above quote is exactly why religion is dangerous. Dangerous to reason, dangerous to wisdom, to political, economic and personal freedom.

"I know I am right, I am immune to reason, I alone know the correct way to live, and were it within my power to compel, the entire world would live according to my laws." Religion has done it before, and given the chance it will do it again.

Remember gerryh's words, remember them well - this is the only warning the sanctimonious will give us as they march merrily on to theocracy.

How are gerryh's words any different from any frothing mad jihadist?

This isn't why I am now an atheist, but it is what gives my atheism such energy.

Thank you gerryh for finally writing something honest.

Pangloss
 

Dexter Sinister

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read the entire chapter and then interprete the above sections based on the entire chapter. The quotes above do not mean what you all are implying.
Okay, I did that. The full context of the quote from Matthew has Jesus talking about the law, it's his first reference to it in the chapter, and it really starts at verse 17, where he says he hasn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, then he offers the comments I cited from verses 18 and 19, clearly stating that until all has been fulfilled all of the law stands. Then he shifts gears and talks about righteousness a bit, refers to some of the 10 Commandments, then gets into the famous bits about turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, and loving your enemies, and closes with the instruction, "Be ye therefore perfect" just like god. Verses 17 to 19 are the only references to the law in that chapter, and I can see no other plausible way to understand them except as an assertion that the law is the law and will stand until the end time.

Like I said....why explain to those that deride and misinterpret. It's a waste of my time.
Hard to see why you bothered to come in here then, and continue to refuse at length to deal with people you think are deriding and misinterpreting things. I suggest you re-read Matthew 5 yourself, paying particular attention to verse 44.