what religion do you think the Devil started

Scott Free

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God – be exalted – revealed the Quran, with two categories of revelations:
1. The Muhkam: that is the plain straightforward revelations: like those concerning the prayer, fasting and other religious rites. God challenged the Arab and all man-kind and demon-kind to bring about an analogue of it.

2. The Mutashabih: that is "similitudes"or the ambiguous revelations, which are like puzzles, that constituted a challenge to people to solve such puzzles and know their secret meaning; like the letters at the beginning of the sooras or chapters of the Quran, and many other revelations including many scientific implication that people in the past did not know, and will appear by time, and most of them will be interpreted by the Paraclite/Mahdi.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 3: 7


Any good charlatan knows that speaking in vagaries and making incomprehensible pros is the best way to evade being pinned down. It is the first and best evidence of a fraud.

What you are basically telling me is that the text of the Koran is so convoluted that you can adapt it to mean anything you want! It isn't the word of god but an artistic expression at best and the work of a deluded tyrant at worst.

Unbelievable!?!

Seriously eanassir, I can understand an ignorant uneducated person being seduced by this a thousand years ago but how can you fall for this crap?

Seriously man - it's so obvious!
 

eanassir

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Any good charlatan knows that speaking in vagaries and making incomprehensible pros is the best way to evade being pinned down. It is the first and best evidence of a fraud.

What you are basically telling me is that the text of the Koran is so convoluted that you can adapt it to mean anything you want! It isn't the word of god but an artistic expression at best and the work of a deluded tyrant at worst.​

When the Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed – peace be on him, his people denied him at the start, and they said to him:

= It is you who have compiled the Quran,
= Had God willed to send an apostle, He would have sent an angel;
= You have studied the past heavenly books and wrote the Quran accordingly;
= You are a poet;
= You are possessed;
= This Quran is from demons and devils, not from God, …etc.

The Arab were eloquent in language: they boast of their ability in eloquency and fluency of language. In addition, they were clever at solving puzzles, and they use some symbols among them that the stranger would not know, but they themselves know. There are many stories about this.

Therefore, God – be glorified – challenged them to bring about one soora or chapter like the Muhkam (or the plain straight forward) Quranic revelations, with the same eloquence; because the Glorious Quran is very eloquent, that influenced its listening so much like magic. He said to them: Mohammed is an Arab like you, then do like him, if it is true that he wrote the Quran, as you claim. But they were completely unable to do that.

Moreover, He challenged them to solve the puzzles (the similitudes) included in it and to know its secrets. That is because the Arab loved the puzzles, and it was usual in their common language. He means: You are skilful at solving puzzles, then if Mohammed had compiled the Quran, as you claim, then solve the puzzles and know the secrets included in it; because Mohammed is one of you. But they were completely unable to solve its puzzles and know its secrets. Then God – be glorified – said that He will explain to them the secrets and the puzzles, after a long time of respite that He gave to them.

That is because the Quran is superior to their minds, and superior to the generations, and it includes things that will be verified by the science in the future. And "the Quran is an alive and dynamic, and applicable in all generations and centuries till Doomsday".

The implication: God tells them: I shall give you so and so of time to ponder and reflect about My words in the Glorious Quran, and even if all the genie-kind and man-kind cooperate with each other to bring about a book similar to the Quran, they will not be able to do that.

One of the Quranic revelations indicating this is His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 17: 88:
قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا
The explanation: (Say [O Mohammed, to these associaters]: "Even though the whole man-kind and genie-kind [: demon-kind] were to gather together in accordance to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like, even if they aided each other with support.")

Also in the Quran 38: 88
وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ
The explanation: (And you [people] shall surely come to know, after a time, the truth thereof.)

eanassir
http://universeandquran.741.com
http://man-after-death.741.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
 

look3467

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Moreover, He challenged them to solve the puzzles (the similitudes) included in it and to know its secrets. That is because the Arab loved the puzzles, and it was usual in their common language. He means: You are skilful at solving puzzles, then if Mohammed had compiled the Quran, as you claim, then solve the puzzles and know the secrets included in it; because Mohammed is one of you. But they were completely unable to solve its puzzles and know its secrets. Then God – be glorified – said that He will explain to them the secrets and the puzzles, after a long time of respite that He gave to them. >>>eanassir

I am glad you made that statement eanassir, because I have found pieces of the puzzle that fit the bible to a T.

The whole structure of the bible is centered around the number 7.

There is where I find my understanding that surpasses, in my view, all existing religious views and to include all non believers as well.

My views are now all inclusive where as before, I was limited to believe only one way, much as you now believe.

I no longer condemn anyone because of my views, but in fact include them along with myself into the glory of God.

As hard as it is for a non believer to understand what you are trying to tell them, it is just as hard for you to believe what my views are as well.

On this forum, you will not find me condemning anyone period! Look if you will to all my postings, and you will find that my view point is all inclusive, for God is all inclusive bar none.

God did not create to destroy, but to save what He has created. Though His creation my go astray, because of free will, yet He will not have it destroyed.

Now, if you can come to an understanding of what the love of God is, you to will change your views to be similar to mine.

Jesus said:
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not,I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

That includes all non believers.

May God be praised by His own creation for the unconditional love demonstrated in Jesus.

Peace>>>AJ
 

eanassir

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I am glad you made that statement eanassir,
Peace>>>AJ

It is the same God that revealed the Glorious Quran, as had He revealed the Torah and the Gospel, to be a light and guidance to mankind and genie-kind.

But to every prophet was something peculiar according to his time:

Moses came at a time when magic was prevalent, and he brought his staff: higher than their magic to prove his prophet-hood.

Jesus came at a time where some medical progress was there according to their time, but there were diseases that they could not be cured; and Jesus Christ wrought his miracles of curing the disabled and the congenitally blind. It is God Who made such miracles for Jesus to be a proof for his prophet-hood.

Mohammed came to the Arab who were eloquent in language and poetry, and were clever at solving puzzles, and he brought the Quran from God: a miracle that cannot be imitated, and a scientific miracle that will last to Doomsday.

God – be exalted – said in the Glorious Quran 3: 1- 4
الم . اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ . نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ . مِن قَبْلُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَنزَلَ الْفُرْقَانَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ ذُو انتِقَامٍ .
The explanation: (أل م : Alif, Lam, Miem. That means: Recite To them, O Mohammed!
God! There is no god save Him [alone], the Alive [Who dies not], the Disposer [in the affairs of the universe and creatures.]
He revealed to you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran] including the true [religion of monotheism], confirming that by his hands; and He revealed the Torah [of Moses] and the Gospel [of Jesus] before [the revelation of the Quran], to guide mankind and He revealed the 'Furqan' [or the 'Sundries'.]
Surely, those who unbelieve in the revelations of God, for them will be severe torment; surely, God is Mighty and Avenging.)


 

look3467

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I will agree with you all that you said, only to include you in the scope of Gods love regardless of who you are or what you believe.

But, it is up to you to discover the true love of God and not as what mankind thinks the love of God is.

If you can find in in the Koran, than all blessings to you, but I hope that in that finding, you will not limit Gods love to mankind, for if you do, I can safely say, you haven't found it yet.

Peace>>>AJ
 

eanassir

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I will agree with you all that you said, only to include you in the scope of Gods love regardless of who you are or what you believe.

But, it is up to you to discover the true love of God and not as what mankind thinks the love of God is.

If you can find in in the Koran, than all blessings to you, but I hope that in that finding, you will not limit Gods love to mankind, for if you do, I can safely say, you haven't found it yet.

Peace>>>AJ

This is in the Quran 3: 31-32
قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
{قُلْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ} (32) سورة آل عمران
The explanation: (Say [O Mohammed, to those unbelievers who claim loving God:] "If you [indeed] were loving God, follow me [concerning the monotheism], then God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is Most Forgiving [and] Most Merciful."
Say [O Mohammed to them] "Obey God and the messenger [: the apostle] but if they turn away [from you], surely, God loves not the ungrateful.")

The interpretation: Christians say: We love Jesus because God loves him, and the pagan Arab said: We love angels because God loves them; therefore, this aya was revealed in reply to them:
>> (Say [O Mohammed, to those unbelievers who claim loving God:] "If you [indeed] were loving God) as you claim,
>> (follow me [concerning the monotheism]) and abandon the idols and the equals or peers, and let your worship be exclusively pure for God alone, and never associate in this worshipping any creature [whether Jesus or others],
>> (then God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is Most Forgiving) to those who repent,
>> ([and] Most Merciful.") [to those monotheists who regret.]
>> (Say [O Mohammed to them] "Obey God) concerning that which He revealed in the Quran,
>> (and the messenger [: the apostle: Mohammed]) concerning that which he tells you, if you love God as you allege,
>> (but if they turn away [from you]) and do not listen to your words,
>> (surely, God loves not the ungrateful") concerning the bounties of God; therefore, He does not guide them neither does He love them.

eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
http://universeandquran.741.com
http://man-after-death.741.com
 

Scott Free

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When the Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed – peace be on him, his people denied him at the start, and they said to him:

= It is you who have compiled the Quran,
= Had God willed to send an apostle, He would have sent an angel;
= You have studied the past heavenly books and wrote the Quran accordingly;
= You are a poet;
= You are possessed;
= This Quran is from demons and devils, not from God, …etc.

The Arab were eloquent in language: they boast of their ability in eloquency and fluency of language. In addition, they were clever at solving puzzles, and they use some symbols among them that the stranger would not know, but they themselves know. There are many stories about this.

Therefore, God – be glorified – challenged them to bring about one soora or chapter like the Muhkam (or the plain straight forward) Quranic revelations, with the same eloquence; because the Glorious Quran is very eloquent, that influenced its listening so much like magic. He said to them: Mohammed is an Arab like you, then do like him, if it is true that he wrote the Quran, as you claim. But they were completely unable to do that.

Moreover, He challenged them to solve the puzzles (the similitudes) included in it and to know its secrets. That is because the Arab loved the puzzles, and it was usual in their common language. He means: You are skilful at solving puzzles, then if Mohammed had compiled the Quran, as you claim, then solve the puzzles and know the secrets included in it; because Mohammed is one of you. But they were completely unable to solve its puzzles and know its secrets. Then God – be glorified – said that He will explain to them the secrets and the puzzles, after a long time of respite that He gave to them.

That is because the Quran is superior to their minds, and superior to the generations, and it includes things that will be verified by the science in the future. And "the Quran is an alive and dynamic, and applicable in all generations and centuries till Doomsday".

The implication: God tells them: I shall give you so and so of time to ponder and reflect about My words in the Glorious Quran, and even if all the genie-kind and man-kind cooperate with each other to bring about a book similar to the Quran, they will not be able to do that.

One of the Quranic revelations indicating this is His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 17: 88:
قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا
The explanation: (Say [O Mohammed, to these associaters]: "Even though the whole man-kind and genie-kind [: demon-kind] were to gather together in accordance to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like, even if they aided each other with support.")

Also in the Quran 38: 88
وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ
The explanation: (And you [people] shall surely come to know, after a time, the truth thereof.)

eanassir
http://universeandquran.741.com
http://man-after-death.741.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com

Well, aside from being revisionist, your argument is steeped in belief not in fact.

If Michelangelo challenged all of Europe to produce another David (not just a copy but a great work of similar beauty) they wouldn't have been able to do so in his time. Does that prove his divinity? No it doesn't, it proves he was skilled and talented almost beyond belief.

People can be very talented, unimaginably so, but that doesn't make them divine.

If they couldn't solve it's puzzles or "know its secrets" then the work is pointless. This is yet another pragmatic self-refutation. So who could solve the puzzles? Mohammad and his little henchlings no doubt. What is the point of a puzzle book so convoluted no one can solve its problems except its author? It is exclusively meant to grant the author prominence over people. To assume authority from an imagined deity. Such a thing is a crime.

You argue the people were eloquent and intelligent at the time of Mohammad but from your argument it's obvious this is false. They were unable to see through Mohammad's smoke and mirror show; something that is very easy to do. The more you argue the more you demonstrate this.

The people were also deeply steeped in superstition as is obvious from Mohammad's insistence on referring to creatures of the imagination such as demon-kings, demons, jinn and angles. Instead of bringing knowledge to people he was using their own weaknesses against them! He supported their superstition and not with reason but with ludicrous poetry and violence!

As for his last argument that no one could bring about as convoluted and despicable book as he himself had brought: I should point out to you that two people did in fact do just such a thing: the Bab and Baha'ullah. They were able to confound and confuse many people too with their works of plagiarisms and pandering to superstition. If your argument has any weight at all, or if your even remotely sincere, then surely you would turn to them too; for they write the exact same kind of poetry and trash literature.

The human species is capable of generating remarkable talent but this requires time. Unfortunately such individuals are a rarity. It does happen a good deal more often than we know, however, but thankfully most such people aren't so egotistical as to claim they are from god or their message divine. Such a distinction is held for the most despicable of our species of which your "profit" is a prime example.

Imagine if Einstein, Whitehouse, Jung, Sigmund Fraeud, Aristotle, Galileo, Dawkins, to name just a few, had used their considerable intellects to befuddle the masses and gain personal power? Rallied armies to slay those that opposed them? What then would the result have been? They would have produced books that confused, were puzzling and full of superstition! Instead they have enlightened mankind, brought books and theories that have added clarity to our world not enhanced its confusion. They bring new ideas and concepts not play on peoples ignorance. They bring real world truth and enlightenment. They do so without being confounding; they do so without being confusing and they do so for the good of man not for their own personal gain!

He was right about one thing, that after time people would come to know the truth about him: he is a lier, a cheat, a murderer, a prostitute of the arts, an ego maniac, and deceiver. His vacant teachings have not enhanced the worlds understanding on one thing even to the smallest degree, but only served to be the fuel for war, hatred and misery. In short good sir your prophet Mohammad is less than a two bit *****; I feel it is an injustice to myself, to you, and anyone around me to call Mohammad anything but what he really is ( I mean no offense to two bit *****s).
 
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MHz

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Gee grumpy, seems like when you left Christianity behind you also left your manners in the very same place.

How does your being one individual quality you to use the word 'we're' ?

LOL your post has mysteriously vanished, good!
 

RomSpaceKnight

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Those who are looking for literal truths in the Bible or Quran are going to be dissappointed. This includes believers and non-believers alike.

Religion is spirituality organized and turned to doctrine. Spirituality gives you inner calm and the tools to achieve it. Praying before an altar, singing hymns, chanting, spell casting, listening to inspirational words is no different then eastern oriental practices that include mantras and meditation. Positive visualization and happy thoughts can accomplish a lot.

Religion lets you associate with similiar minded folk. It can give a sense of belonging and community.

I find most folk have the biggest issues with the montheistic paths of the Abrahamic traditions that include Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The polytheisms of neo-paganry are more accepting of differences in opinions and practices, so do not have a tendency to inflame folks reactions to be told " This is the way and the only way". Too much eclectism has the effect that folk may think of a pagan path as fluffy bunny territory. The paths of Zen and Tao do not try to preach the ways and words of any one man. Buddhism holds the Buddha up as an example of what can be achieved through perserverance and contemplation of ones actions and thoughts.

Even atheism is a spiritual path.
 

Scott Free

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Those who are looking for literal truths in the Bible or Quran are going to be dissappointed. This includes believers and non-believers alike.

Absolutely because the authors have no literal truth to offer just as one would expect.

Religion is spirituality organized and turned to doctrine. Spirituality gives you inner calm and the tools to achieve it. Praying before an altar, singing hymns, chanting, spell casting, listening to inspirational words is no different then eastern oriental practices that include mantras and meditation. Positive visualization and happy thoughts can accomplish a lot.

I agree, however, even more can be accomplished with real world grounding in reality. Flights of fancy and exercises in fantastical thinking without proof are great fun but ultimately, if taken seriously, can be most damaging to civilization and individuals. It's fine to think about witches but if you take the fantasy seriously you might end up burning people. That is the harm in only wish thinking.

Religion lets you associate with similiar minded folk. It can give a sense of belonging and community.

So does belonging to a bowling league or book reading club but both do far less damage as shown and demonstrated by evidence and history.

I find most folk have the biggest issues with the montheistic paths of the Abrahamic traditions that include Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The polytheisms of neo-paganry are more accepting of differences in opinions and practices, so do not have a tendency to inflame folks reactions to be told " This is the way and the only way". Too much eclectism has the effect that folk may think of a pagan path as fluffy bunny territory. The paths of Zen and Tao do not try to preach the ways and words of any one man. Buddhism holds the Buddha up as an example of what can be achieved through perserverance and contemplation of ones actions and thoughts.

Buddhists have committed their fair share of human calamity too and are no different than any other wretched group of wish thinkers. I would invite you to study how Buddhism played a role in Japanese mass murder, or how they supported Nazi fascism, or how Shinto priests and Buddhists were used in recruiting and training suicide bombers in WWII!

Even atheism is a spiritual path.

Anything can be said to be on the path of such an esoteric metaphor, however, the atheists insistence on proof and evidence instead of relying on wish thinking and fantasy, sets it far apart from any comparison being legitimate. Atheism is on the path of human endeavour while religion is a flight of fancy.

Atheism thus is not on a "spiritual path" because such a thing has no evidence or proof to support it. Religion relies on "faith" which is wish thinking and fantasy without proof - that is a spiritual path.
 

gerryh

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Atheism thus is not on a "spiritual path" because such a thing has no evidence or proof to support it. Religion relies on "faith" which is wish thinking and fantasy without proof - that is a spiritual path.


:roll: Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith.:roll: Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.
 

Scott Free

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:roll: Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith.:roll: Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.

A valid argument, however, they have a principle not to do so, whereas religion has the exact opposite principle, in that, religionists must take everything on faith; it is all they have. Though an atheist may take something on faith (like a complicated principle of science he doesn't understand) he can take heart in that the person who discovered it used evidence and peer review to come to the conclusions, which, is a damn sight better than someone talking to a burning bush and bringing clay tablets down from a mountain with words already revealed a thousand years earlier by a god named Horus.
 

gerryh

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"scientists" are the "priests" of the scientific(atheist) religion.

You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.
 

Scott Free

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"scientists" are the "priests" of the scientific(atheist) religion.

You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.

I read a great deal and inquire into every topic as far as I need searching for the evidence, so I can make a sound argument.

I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.

The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
 

gerryh

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I read a great deal and inquire into every topic as far as I need searching for the evidence, so I can make a sound argument.

I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.

The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.


gee.....this all sounds so familiar.......oh ya...... sounds lke the holy rollers that used to come over to my high school trying to convert all the kids......... but then..... yours isn't a religion.:roll:
 

Scott Free

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gee.....this all sounds so familiar.......oh ya...... sounds lke the holy rollers that used to come over to my high school trying to convert all the kids......... but then..... yours isn't a religion.:roll:

No it isn't. I invite you to examine the facts and have faith in nothing. Let your intellect, heart and mind be your guide. Perhaps you can free yourself from vain imaginings sooner than latter.
 

gerryh

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No it isn't. I invite you to examine the facts and have faith in nothing. Let your intellect, heart and mind be your guide. Perhaps you can free yourself from vain imaginings sooner than latter.


Yes it is.....exactley..... the only thing missing is you telling me that you'll "pray for me"...LOL....
 

gerryh

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No, the difference is that I am telling you to be skeptical of everything.


No you're not.....I think maybe you need to rethink what YOU beleive in.


and like I said....I don't find that science and Christianity are exclusive.