What Makes America Perfect??

[jimmoyer]

This issue can go on forever, for one very simple reason, poverty is redefined based on perspective.

--------------------I think not-------------------------

I don't think so.
Any part of the war on poverty must pay attention
to what people define as poverty and how their
perspective helps or hurts their situation in life.

For those who aren't playing fair will certainly
play with definitions of poverty to avoid the problem.

But real answers on this matter do involve a culture
of thinking that calls attention to how people see
their situation and why they see it that way.

Poverty can kill the spirit. And the perception of
never-ending poverty wastefully kills hope in a person,
whereas another in poverty somehow finds hope.

It's a very complicated matter that defies all politics.

And it's something we cannot ignore.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: What Makes America Perfect??

I don't think so.

I think so, do you know what the poverty rate in the US is?

Ask ten different government agencies and you will get ten different answers.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: What Makes America Pe

to be honest, I think you should all go to Mumbai, 6 million people living in the streets, with NOTHING, no right to vote, no right of education, no right to live, their government dont care about them, their temporary home in the streets are always taken down by the police and their usually molested by the police, trust me, I've seen it.

I've also seen poor people in the US, ok it's bad, a lot of poor people cant get healthcare for example, whereas, of course they could in the uk and parts of canada, but the fact is, I think we should stop for a moment, and just think about people like those in Mumbai nd all the other third world countries.

America is as democratic as it's people choose it to be, same in the UK, same in Canada, but 6 MILLION people in 1 city who are non-entities?...6 million could seriously swing a democratic election, but they dont have the right to vote, so as I say, I think America is Great, it's great because you can go where you like, live where you like, eat what you like, work if you like (same goes for the UK and Canada).

The people also have the right not to be murdered by police looking for Backsheesh as well.

all I'm saying is that America was born out of capitalism (traders, fact ladies and gents), not Democracy, where as newer countries like Canada and Australia, now they were born out of liberty and Democracy, but they are all GREAT, just sometimes I think we should get down off of our greatness and help those worse off close to us and far away.

ahem, got that one out!!!!

 

[Finder]

Nothing is wrong with the American Government, but their is something wrong with the American people who just don't get democracy.

Am I one of those Amerikans?

You must be one of those Amerikans... :twisted:

No well we should stop complaining about American poverity. If you want something done about it you guys have a democracy... use it.

If Poverity is a problem the last time I looked their was no wealth or property qualifier to vote. This problem would have been fixed if poor didn't wish to be poor. *shrugs* I'm sorry if your too stupid or to lazy to understand that the political party you vote for isn't going to help your situation I have very little sympathy for you. Hell I've seen interviews taken in trailer parks over their and those people when they talk about Bush, the war or even political parties just don't care and arn't informed and are not interested in getting informed. The same goes for the middle class, but they tend to say other things, but they don't really care either. Also when you consider the amount of people who don't vote it makes me sick. It's like you have the ability to chose your leader, you have the ability to run for office if you want to, nobody is forcing you to vote democrat or republican...

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: What Makes America Pe

to be honest, I think you should all go to Mumbai, 6 million people living in the streets, with NOTHING, no right to vote, no right of education, no right to live, their government dont care about them, their temporary home in the streets are always taken down by the police and their usually molested by the police, trust me, I've seen it.

I've also seen poor people in the US, ok it's bad, a lot of poor people cant get healthcare for example, whereas, of course they could in the uk and parts of canada, but the fact is, I think we should stop for a moment, and just think about people like those in Mumbai nd all the other third world countries.

America is as democratic as it's people choose it to be, same in the UK, same in Canada, but 6 MILLION people in 1 city who are non-entities?...6 million could seriously swing a democratic election, but they dont have the right to vote, so as I say, I think America is Great, it's great because you can go where you like, live where you like, eat what you like, work if you like (same goes for the UK and Canada).

The people also have the right not to be murdered by police looking for Backsheesh as well.

all I'm saying is that America was born out of capitalism (traders, fact ladies and gents), not Democracy, where as newer countries like Canada and Australia, now they were born out of liberty and Democracy, but they are all GREAT, just sometimes I think we should get down off of our greatness and help those worse off close to us and far away.

ahem, got that one out!!!!

Daz, the USA is about 50 times more democratic then Canada, at least the system is. But it's the people who don't choose their leaders wisely or don't even vote which makes the USA lack. You are also completely right the nations which suck are those which live in a nation where the government is not chosen democratically and millions live on the street and life is as valuable as dirt. Those are the people who need help. The Americans, I could care less about them, the poor in American could help themselves if they chose to excercise their democratic rights properly.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: What Makes America Pe

problem is, india is supposedly the "biggest democracy" in the world...and I'm not sure about the US being more democratic than you, I just think it's something inherited in Canada, the difference between you and the US, as I see it, is just attitudes.

 

[Finder]

In Canada we only have one level of Government which works. Thats the Lower house, both the Senate and the GG have no real power and no real ability to be a check or balance to the house of commons. In the USA you have the Senate, the house of reps and the executive (president). 3 checks and balances... In Canada we have none. If you include the courts we have two, but then the americans would still have four. The USA is a hella a lot more democratic then Canada, we just tend to vote smarter then the USA, for more enlightend leaders and so on.

 

[jimmoyer]

Finder, you bring up a lot of issues that are
eminently debatable, for example your distaste for
a two-party predominance.

That is a debate that can be started in another thread.

Another point you bring up is how many people vote,
and that in itself is another eminently debatable point
best started in another thread.

If you want, I'll start those 2 issues.

But I don't think any system you like or dislike has
the ability to eradicate poverty.

Poverty's durability and longevity is not because of
the failure of any system or because some political
system you like hasn't been tried yet or because a
nation's voters are dumb.

Poverty has shown itself to defy any fix you can
imagine. It shouldn't be ignored. We ought to look
at it for the complexity it really contains.

If there were simple answers, someone would have
done it because it would have showered them with
votes and riches.

Believe me, that politician would
win in a heart beat and no corporate underworld could
stop it, because that guy would have bequeathed a
solution that would never die, even if the inventor of
it did.

Most often, poverty is used as a prop for other agendas.

 

[Finder]

Plus when you think about what stops the USA from being a multiparty system.... Nothing but the American people. Yes the electoral collage could be set up better for the executives elections, but thats it, for the Senate and the Congress, there is no reason why there arn't 3, 4 freaken 8 parties in there right now... but no there is only two parties which are sitting their laughing because once you get elected it is extremely hard to lose your job. Really you have to like kill someone these days to have the people unelect you in the USA. In Canada where our system is set up as a two party system we have big change ups every election and we have a multi party democracy.

 

[Finder]

jimmoyer, my point is not really the system of government or if a two party system is the right or wrong system to use. But the fact is if Americans wished to eliminate poverity they could just elect people to do so.


edit:
Man people are always complaining about people being anti-american here, and here I am defeanding the Americans electoral system saying it is the best in the world and now people are arguing about that. I'm saying there is nothing wrong with the government their is something wrong with the people who put them their and live in the USA.

Well unless you believe the USA is a Utopia and I'm sure theirs americans who believe that... whatever good for them. But there is only one big problem I see with that system and thats the electoral collage, comapired to other nations.... that problem is very small.

 

[jimmoyer]

Finder, never mind the dumb American voter.

Has any country's voters accomplished this goal
of ending poverty ? Or even of reducing it to what
acceptable level ?

And do demographics of changing populations of
ethnic cultures and aging populations defeat the
will of the voters voting for a perfect system ?

Demographics is the force of a tidal wave.

It's destroyed empires, created nations.

And what of poverty ? A simple problem voted on ?
Solved by a vote ?

 

[I think not]

Finder

You're very monolithic sometimes in your views. You make claims you elect more "enlightened" leaders, isn't that a matter of perspective? You call Harper or Martin "enlightened"? Are you overshadowed of Bush because he can't put together a coherent sentance? Do you have a selective memory?

Democracy is ALOT more than who you elect buddy, it's about activism, not lobbyism, activism. Like the ACLU as an example, your Canadian version of the ACLU is a joke and a half, they haven't taken a case in years. What does that tell you? Anything?

You are under the mindset (i think) that government will make a difference, in the US people are under the mindset, people make a difference. You really think it matters who governs without any activism? I think not.

That's the difference.

 

[Finder]

jimmoyer, I totally blame the voter in Democracies like the USA. Unlike many other nations around the world they could elect people who could help them but chose not to, or indeed chose not to even vote!!!! If people think poverty is an issue or even an on going issue in the USA and none of the two parties have solved this yet, then why are the same two parties getting elected.

Thus with this simple logic the American voter doesn't believe the USA has an issue with poverity thus if the USA actually has an issue with poverity then it is the American voters problem and not the governments. Damn.... Hell, if the Americans wanted to they could elect a Communist, a socialist, a social democrat a monarchist, a anarchist a libertarian a anything anyhow.... but they chose not to. indeed both the democrats and the republicans don't even have true philosophies, hell you don't have to be a conservative to be a republican and you don't have to be liberal to be a democrat.. yet again the people.. the voters have not held their elected officials to standerds, they really don't care about these things and it shows with the parties, with the elections. If you win a seat in any level of government unless you have done soemthing really wrong you can't lose it.

 

[Finder]

Finder

You're very monolithic sometimes in your views. You make claims you elect more "enlightened" leaders, isn't that a matter of perspective? You call Harper or Martin "enlightened"? Are you overshadowed of Bush because he can't put together a coherent sentance? Do you have a selective memory?

Democracy is ALOT more than who you elect buddy, it's about activism, not lobbyism, activism. Like the ACLU as an example, your Canadian version of the ACLU is a joke and a half, they haven't taken a case in years. What does that tell you? Anything?

You are under the mindset (i think) that government will make a difference, in the US people are under the mindset, people make a difference. You really think it matters who governs without any activism? I think not.

That's the difference.

Compaired to Bush, yes Harper is a lot more intelligent and a better statesmen.

The only thing which gives Bush to ability to accomplish anything in the world community is the wealth and Power of the USA, oh and his advisers of course. Really anyone could be president of the USA, Bush proves this.

Canada has had enlightend rulers since we have a system which is set up to be abused. Pretty much if the PM with a magority government wanted to do something he could... Nothing really is stoping him, no check to his power at all, compaired to the USA with the Senate and the Congress. The Amount of power which a PM with a magority has is almost like an absolute monarch, yet most of Canada's PM's have actted in an enlightend democratic fashion, even Mulroney I'd say wasn't that bad of a leader.

 

[jimmoyer]

Finder, you presume poverty to be so simple an issue
that you presume it can be eradicated by a vote ?

I think a lot of people greatly care about this issue.

The Churches down here do so much work without
the headlines on a very personal and worldwide level
that you cannot know how hard people give of their
time and money towards this matter.

This is a daunting issue that defies politics.

This ain't simple, no matter who you call call
evil or corrupt, no matter what or who you blame.

It ain't simple.

It's devastating in its durability and complexity.

 

[Finder]

jimmoyer
True but I am saying the American voter isn't being proactive, they are not making their government accountable, and anyone who blames the government of the USA for the poverity in the USA really should think about this the next time their is an election.

Poverity isn't a simple issue, I agree it can't be eliminated by a simple vote, by socialism, capitalism or communism even. But if a party or in this case the two parties which have pretty much been the only two parties to rule your nation have done little to fight it properly and effectively then the voters should hold these parties accountable. If you ask me Americans do not hold the Republicans or the Democrats accountable to anything. I think the only reason we have a change up of the president of the USA as often as we do is because the American people are forced to elect a new one after the 2 year term is over. If it wasn't for the two year term I bet they'd last a lot longer .

One way to solve a small part of the problem which I'd love to see happen is to cap the term limits of the Senate and the Congress... Let more people serve their country and get envolved in democracy and let these burocrats find real jobs for once.

 

[I think not]

Compaired to Bush, yes Harper is a lot more intelligent and a better statesmen.

The only thing which gives Bush to ability to accomplish anything in the world community is the wealth and Power of the USA, oh and his advisers of course. Really anyone could be president of the USA, Bush proves this.

Canada has had enlightend rulers since we have a system which is set up to be abused. Pretty much if the PM with a magority government wanted to do something he could... Nothing really is stoping him, no check to his power at all, compaired to the USA with the Senate and the Congress. The Amount of power which a PM with a magority has is almost like an absolute monarch, yet most of Canada's PM's have actted in an enlightend democratic fashion, even Mulroney I'd say wasn't that bad of a leader.

And yet none of these "enlightened" leaders have proposed changes that will allow them to be "checked" and "balanced" within your government system. You also re-elect leaders that condone book banning at the border, not very "enlightened" from where I stand.

And you barely have any activism, you expect the government to hand you everything, whereas Americans don't expect shit from the government, that's why activism is high.

 

[Finder]

Finder

You're very monolithic sometimes in your views. You make claims you elect more "enlightened" leaders, isn't that a matter of perspective? You call Harper or Martin "enlightened"? Are you overshadowed of Bush because he can't put together a coherent sentance? Do you have a selective memory?

Democracy is ALOT more than who you elect buddy, it's about activism, not lobbyism, activism. Like the ACLU as an example, your Canadian version of the ACLU is a joke and a half, they haven't taken a case in years. What does that tell you? Anything?

You are under the mindset (i think) that government will make a difference, in the US people are under the mindset, people make a difference. You really think it matters who governs without any activism? I think not.

That's the difference.

No government can't make a difference unless the people the voters want it to. That is my point and that is why the American government is so inept.

 

[Finder]

Compaired to Bush, yes Harper is a lot more intelligent and a better statesmen.

The only thing which gives Bush to ability to accomplish anything in the world community is the wealth and Power of the USA, oh and his advisers of course. Really anyone could be president of the USA, Bush proves this.

Canada has had enlightend rulers since we have a system which is set up to be abused. Pretty much if the PM with a magority government wanted to do something he could... Nothing really is stoping him, no check to his power at all, compaired to the USA with the Senate and the Congress. The Amount of power which a PM with a magority has is almost like an absolute monarch, yet most of Canada's PM's have actted in an enlightend democratic fashion, even Mulroney I'd say wasn't that bad of a leader.

And yet none of these "enlightened" leaders have proposed changes that will allow them to be "checked" and "balanced" within your government system. You also re-elect leaders that condone book banning at the border, not very "enlightened" from where I stand.

And you barely have any activism, you expect the government to hand you everything, whereas Americans don't expect shit from the government, that's why activism is high.

your totally correct. They should have changed the system. All the parties here are at fault for that even the NDP in Ontario or Manitobia and BC didn't change the provincial systems, so all the parties have their hands dirty on this case. We are not the best but with out system which could easly be abused, the abuse isn't that bad.

 

[selfactivated]

Re: RE: What Makes America Perfect??

Finder, you presume poverty to be so simple an issue
that you presume it can be eradicated by a vote ?

I think a lot of people greatly care about this issue.

The Churches down here do so much work without
the headlines on a very personal and worldwide level
that you cannot know how hard people give of their
time and money towards this matter.

This is a daunting issue that defies politics.

This ain't simple, no matter who you call call
evil or corrupt, no matter what or who you blame.

It ain't simple.

It's devastating in its durability and complexity.

Im not the brightest bulb but I agree with the fact that this isssue isnt simple. Mostly due to the fact it isnt defined. My idea of poverty is different than every friend I have. I live way below the poverty line but to me as long as I have shelter and food (and I can do with a lot less than most) and my shrink Im good to go. Im richer than most people on earth. But others would find the amout I have per month not even enough to rent an apartment or buy food or......well you get the point. I dont see anyone collectively agreeing what poverty is so maybe we need a different definition of the problem? Just a thought. (sorry about the eliterate sentence structure and typing)