Doe not anybody like what toby the horse has to say on such matters? I actually thought what toby had to say was right on the bale, 8)
What is your religion?
- Thread starter Rick van Opbergen
- Start date
RE: What is your religion
Hollaback, so if I follow you correctly, if we don't believe in God, we are not happy, we're wasting our time. Well, I got news for you, I don't need to believe in Heaven or in a god to be happy, I think it belongs to you to do things that make you happy! And I'm not judging you as you do with non-believers, I don't care at all what you preach for, my mother is a major christian and I respect her choice, but you have to respect other's choice too. And if I end up in hell, well good for me, that's where the party will be with all the dirty girls and booze! :roll:
Hollaback, so if I follow you correctly, if we don't believe in God, we are not happy, we're wasting our time. Well, I got news for you, I don't need to believe in Heaven or in a god to be happy, I think it belongs to you to do things that make you happy! And I'm not judging you as you do with non-believers, I don't care at all what you preach for, my mother is a major christian and I respect her choice, but you have to respect other's choice too. And if I end up in hell, well good for me, that's where the party will be with all the dirty girls and booze! :roll:
Insengard,
Can I come with you 8) I am known for being a very bad girl :lol: :lol: :lol: and please did you read my toby the horse thread? I want your opinion on his horse sense 8)
Can I come with you 8) I am known for being a very bad girl :lol: :lol: :lol: and please did you read my toby the horse thread? I want your opinion on his horse sense 8)
Hollaback, sorry to have to say this to you but while at sunday school kids were being locked in the closet, whether you want to believe it not. I was there, I saw it myself and I know about 2 of the kids who were locked in closet. Many others were there too, so it's not my imagination or my mind playing tricks on me. Sorry if you don't like what I have to say about but its true and I will NEVER be silenced about it. The crimes that some people to done to children are nothing less than criminal. And there are lots and lots of cases to justify that statement.
Believe whatever you want to believe, I know what I saw. Sorry if it goes against what you want to believe about the church. But when those people in power at the church put other people in charge to perform duties they are also an extension of the church, IMO.
There are none to blind as those who refuse to see.
Believe whatever you want to believe, I know what I saw. Sorry if it goes against what you want to believe about the church. But when those people in power at the church put other people in charge to perform duties they are also an extension of the church, IMO.
There are none to blind as those who refuse to see.
peapod said:
I will be waiting for you sitting on my 24 pack
And yeah you can bring your Starbucks coffee :wink:No I didn't read your toby thread, where is it??
Thanks for the invite insengard, but if you have beer, and it is hell, forget the lattie..I will chug-a-lug a few with you. My toby is in chit chat...its titled a conversation with toby...you will love it!!! I will tell you later who toby is, as you probally know him :lol:
As you are entitled to your opinions hollaback, and I respect them, I do not agree with you. You said that "only you atheists" kill. Excusez moi? Never heard of the Lord's Resistance Army (Uganda)? Now I know those people are not mainstream Christians, and you will probably say that they are no Christians for they kill, but they do rely on what we call the Bible. Now, I don't want to generalize here so I'll don't, as I do believe the far, far majority of Christians are peaceful and loving people (as the rest of the non-Christian world). But I find your statement that Christians don't kill, and "you atheists" do (while not every person here is an atheist, but we won't go further on that) 1) generalization, and 2) false.
Now I would suggest that you should respect the fact that there are a lot of people who don't believe in God. I would also suggest to others that a bad experience with religion does not mean all religions are bad, and that people who are religious are not "stupid", "foolish", whatever.
Now I would suggest that you should respect the fact that there are a lot of people who don't believe in God. I would also suggest to others that a bad experience with religion does not mean all religions are bad, and that people who are religious are not "stupid", "foolish", whatever.
Could be. I first had Buddism as an option in my poll, but when I wanted to post this thread it said that I had too many polloptions, so I decided to delete Buddism.bevvyd said:
Ok, I do apologize, I am really not some hardcore chrtistian, who shoves the Bible down peoples throat. I was really pissed off that there was not one post from someone who believed in a higher being, and that believing in God was a dumb thing to do. So the message I wrote was very haste, and I am sorry if I did offend you guys.
Bevvyd, I am really sorry that you actually saw kids get locked up in closets, I am, and I am ashamed that these people call themselves chrisitans. Chrisitans really are not like that, I and don't think that these poeple were Chrisitans...I think that they were very sick, and should be locked in their own closet.
Bevvyd, I am really sorry that you actually saw kids get locked up in closets, I am, and I am ashamed that these people call themselves chrisitans. Chrisitans really are not like that, I and don't think that these poeple were Chrisitans...I think that they were very sick, and should be locked in their own closet.
Thanks Hollaback they should be locked in closets themself. They made one heck of an impression let me tell ya.
This is my view on religion
Does God exist? This ancient question just won't go away. Since human history began, as soon as someone thought he had the answer, someone else came along to challenge it. The question endures, and now rests in the ether, waiting to spring on college students, retreating after the age of thirty, surfacing for the odd cocktail party, and reemerging with full force in the "philosophical years." But before we discuss this complicated question, let me introduce myself. I'm Toby, the talking horse.
Being a talking horse leaves me with plenty of time to ponder these big issues. No one rides me, because I just tell them to get off. So there's a lot of standing time. Sometimes I sing at night, to pass the hours; sometimes I court the little beauty in the next pasture, Lily. Sometimes I develop powers, which is fun. In fact, right now you are not reading this; you only think you are. You are actually calling your bank by Touch-Tone phone and transferring all your money to my account.
Mostly, though, I do anagrams in my head, like many other horses. When you see a horse standing in a field staring at you, he's really rearranging letters in his head: "tide, diet, edit. ..." It's a horsy thing to do. So the first thing I do with a question as big as the one we're talking about is pass it through my head and rearrange the letters. "Does ... odes ... " Not much there. Then there's the obvious "god ... dog," and the fruitless "exist." Engaging in this little neurotic exercise enables me to move on to the next step.
Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question? I think if you are honest with yourself, you will realize that a yea-or-neigh answer wouldn't really change your life much. Although a neigh might free up a lot of time now spent worshipping. In fact, I don't imagine God is really keen on worshipping. You can take it from me, Toby the talking horse — he's as humble as the next God, and a simple thank-you is all that's required.
If you ask me what came first, the question or the belief, I'd say that the belief preceded the question. The question does not lead to belief; the question leads to disbelief. The belief, on the other hand, exists in almost every human culture, even though you sometimes get people praying to dolls made of dung. The belief does not so naturally arise in animals, which makes me, a horse, the perfect objective moderator.
I'm going to make a ground rule. No arguing. Arguing is what they do on MSNBC, and what good does that do anyone? A big horselaugh to the human idea that reason ever actually changed anyone's mind or proved anything beyond a person's ability to argue. I could argue that the sky is green if I wanted. And win. Why? Because I could study enough to corner you on every proposition; I could become quick-minded on the green-sky-issue. I could have your head spinning with the twists and curves I would throw at you. And I'm a horse. But I could still do it. So imagine what a well-oiled purveyor of religious wisdom could do.
Another ground rule. No definitions. We could sit here till the cows come home, which in my world is not a metaphor, and discuss the definitions of important words. But let me tell you, we wouldn't get anywhere. It would be easy to reduce the question of God's existence to a problem of semantics. But we're beyond that now. I'm glad my name is Toby, because it proves my point. I am my own definition. I am not "Lucky," or "Copper," or "Ginger," or any other noun. Let's let God be his own definition, just like me.
I have to tell you something about Lily — She has a yellow mane. I was just thinking about her.
Another thing: please do not mention the phrase "organized religion." I already know where you're going with it, and that argument is for college students who want to have something to talk about when they smoke pot. We're way beyond that discussion.
You may have no way to understand how wonderful a yellow mane is. Well, on Lily it's wonderful. Sometimes at night she will slide along the fence and come close to me, and she will sigh her warm breath on my nose, and I will rub my head against her yellow mane, and the smell will stay with me until morning. She also has a great asshole. Oh, I forgot. You're human and you think that's vulgar. Lily is about the closest thing to God that I've come across. She is physical and spiritual, and she will look at me, and lean into me, and flip her mane so it brushes me, and even though she can't talk, it's as though in those moments she's saying, "Toby."
Lily. Illy. Yill. Toby. Boty. Otby.
There are certain people who seem to know that the answer to the question is affirmative. And it makes them want to dress up in robes, and capes and cloaks and special hats, or to wear very thick makeup and comb their hair real high. Other people seem to believe the opposite. Some people are fine with this, but other people can be gloomy. For those people, there is a special word of one vowel and several nervous, unrelated consonants: angst.
Tangs, gnats, stang.
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer? Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry. But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
Does God exist? This ancient question just won't go away. Since human history began, as soon as someone thought he had the answer, someone else came along to challenge it. The question endures, and now rests in the ether, waiting to spring on college students, retreating after the age of thirty, surfacing for the odd cocktail party, and reemerging with full force in the "philosophical years." But before we discuss this complicated question, let me introduce myself. I'm Toby, the talking horse.
Being a talking horse leaves me with plenty of time to ponder these big issues. No one rides me, because I just tell them to get off. So there's a lot of standing time. Sometimes I sing at night, to pass the hours; sometimes I court the little beauty in the next pasture, Lily. Sometimes I develop powers, which is fun. In fact, right now you are not reading this; you only think you are. You are actually calling your bank by Touch-Tone phone and transferring all your money to my account.
Mostly, though, I do anagrams in my head, like many other horses. When you see a horse standing in a field staring at you, he's really rearranging letters in his head: "tide, diet, edit. ..." It's a horsy thing to do. So the first thing I do with a question as big as the one we're talking about is pass it through my head and rearrange the letters. "Does ... odes ... " Not much there. Then there's the obvious "god ... dog," and the fruitless "exist." Engaging in this little neurotic exercise enables me to move on to the next step.
Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question? I think if you are honest with yourself, you will realize that a yea-or-neigh answer wouldn't really change your life much. Although a neigh might free up a lot of time now spent worshipping. In fact, I don't imagine God is really keen on worshipping. You can take it from me, Toby the talking horse — he's as humble as the next God, and a simple thank-you is all that's required.
If you ask me what came first, the question or the belief, I'd say that the belief preceded the question. The question does not lead to belief; the question leads to disbelief. The belief, on the other hand, exists in almost every human culture, even though you sometimes get people praying to dolls made of dung. The belief does not so naturally arise in animals, which makes me, a horse, the perfect objective moderator.
I'm going to make a ground rule. No arguing. Arguing is what they do on MSNBC, and what good does that do anyone? A big horselaugh to the human idea that reason ever actually changed anyone's mind or proved anything beyond a person's ability to argue. I could argue that the sky is green if I wanted. And win. Why? Because I could study enough to corner you on every proposition; I could become quick-minded on the green-sky-issue. I could have your head spinning with the twists and curves I would throw at you. And I'm a horse. But I could still do it. So imagine what a well-oiled purveyor of religious wisdom could do.
Another ground rule. No definitions. We could sit here till the cows come home, which in my world is not a metaphor, and discuss the definitions of important words. But let me tell you, we wouldn't get anywhere. It would be easy to reduce the question of God's existence to a problem of semantics. But we're beyond that now. I'm glad my name is Toby, because it proves my point. I am my own definition. I am not "Lucky," or "Copper," or "Ginger," or any other noun. Let's let God be his own definition, just like me.
I have to tell you something about Lily — She has a yellow mane. I was just thinking about her.
Another thing: please do not mention the phrase "organized religion." I already know where you're going with it, and that argument is for college students who want to have something to talk about when they smoke pot. We're way beyond that discussion.
You may have no way to understand how wonderful a yellow mane is. Well, on Lily it's wonderful. Sometimes at night she will slide along the fence and come close to me, and she will sigh her warm breath on my nose, and I will rub my head against her yellow mane, and the smell will stay with me until morning. She also has a great asshole. Oh, I forgot. You're human and you think that's vulgar. Lily is about the closest thing to God that I've come across. She is physical and spiritual, and she will look at me, and lean into me, and flip her mane so it brushes me, and even though she can't talk, it's as though in those moments she's saying, "Toby."
Lily. Illy. Yill. Toby. Boty. Otby.
There are certain people who seem to know that the answer to the question is affirmative. And it makes them want to dress up in robes, and capes and cloaks and special hats, or to wear very thick makeup and comb their hair real high. Other people seem to believe the opposite. Some people are fine with this, but other people can be gloomy. For those people, there is a special word of one vowel and several nervous, unrelated consonants: angst.
Tangs, gnats, stang.
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer? Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry. But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
If I wrote that...do you think i would be sitting here typing into cyberspace no believe it or not it was steve martin...part of a very interesting discussion on this issue...you would enjoy it..I will send you the site if you like...
no believe it or not it was steve martin...part of a very interesting discussion on this issue...you would enjoy it..I will send you the site if you like..."I'm a Roman Catholic and have been since before I was born. And the one thing they say about Catholics is "They'll take you as soon as you're warm". You don't have to be a six-footer. You don't have to have a great brain. You don't have to have any clothes on you're a Catholic the moment Dad came........etc."
Sorry, couldn't miss a chance to quote Monty Python. I am Catholic. As far as my ancestry goes I am Irish. Although my grandfather did tell me that we had some native in the family. Of course he also told me he got his tattoo when he was in the circus so...
Sorry, couldn't miss a chance to quote Monty Python. I am Catholic. As far as my ancestry goes I am Irish. Although my grandfather did tell me that we had some native in the family. Of course he also told me he got his tattoo when he was in the circus so...
Never Never miss an opportunity to quote monthy python...on that note are you wearing yellow? shouting shrubbery?
For the record, here's my take on religion, probably in more detail than anybody wants to know.
I am a materialist to the core. What that means is that I think that matter (protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, stuff like that) and its interactions are the fundamental reality, that all actions, thoughts, and feelings, are in principle explicable in terms of physical interactions among bits of matter, and that what we call 'spirit' or 'mind' consists entirely of matter arranged in complex and subtle ways. That is the underlying assumption of western science, and I am a committed and unapologetic admirer of science, it has been my career and the largest single influence in my life and thoughts. With the possible exception of my wife. I am a materialist to the core. I think that matter (protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, stuff like that) is the fundamental reality, and that all actions, thoughts, and feelings, are in principle explicable in terms of physical interactions among bits of matter. What we call 'spirit' or 'mind' consists entirely of matter arranged in complex and subtle ways. That is the underlying assumption of western science, and I am a committed and unapologetic admirer of science. The modern world is almost entirely a product of science. Religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world depend on concepts that have no reality outside the mind, and I find most of them absurd. Religious beliefs are atavistic survivors from an earlier stage of our mental evolution. As our mental capacity expanded over the period of our evolution, we imagined more and more complex realities and populated them with the gods, demons, and spirits of conventional religion. Religiously-based morality and ethics are rationalizations after the fact for the existing social conditions. To the extent that they converge across cultures and times, they simply reflect universally true facts about human social conditions and human nature. Life has whatever meaning we give it, and that meaning is to be found only in terms of our connections with other people and what we can do with and for each other. That’s all there is. The modern world is almost entirely a product of science and the technology it's produced.
Religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world depend on concepts that have no demonstrable reality outside the mind, and I find most of them absurd. Religious beliefs are atavistic survivors from an earlier stage of our mental evolution. We (human beings I mean) have imagined more and more complex realities in our attempts to comprehend the world around us, and populated them with the gods, demons, and spirits of conventional religion as the movers and shakers. Those beliefs have been in steady retreat since we discovered the methods of science a few centuries ago. I can't be the only one who's noticed that the more we know about something, the less willing we are to admit supernatural explanations of it. Much of the history of the last four centuries can be seen as organized religion retreating from its empirical claims about the nature of the world in the face of advancing scientific understanding.
Religiously-based morality and ethics are rationalizations after the fact for existing social conditions. To the extent that they converge across cultures and times, they simply reflect universally true facts about human social conditions and human nature. Life has whatever meaning we give it, and that meaning is to be found only in terms of our connections with other people and what we can do to, with, for, and sometimes in spite of, those we care about. That's all there is. There are no supernatural beings, no gods, no tooth fairies, no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, no demons, no devils, no ghosts, there's no good evidence for any of them.
That's what I believe.
Those of you who used to hang around the old Sympatico forums might recognize that (quick now, anyone, what was my user name there?), it's almost a direct copy & paste of something I once posted there in a thread I started about skeptical thinking. That was a lively and interesting group for a while, and I found this place one day, after being out of the country for a while and too busy professionally to keep up with it, when I went looking in Google for "Sympatico forums" again.
Dex
I am a materialist to the core. What that means is that I think that matter (protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, stuff like that) and its interactions are the fundamental reality, that all actions, thoughts, and feelings, are in principle explicable in terms of physical interactions among bits of matter, and that what we call 'spirit' or 'mind' consists entirely of matter arranged in complex and subtle ways. That is the underlying assumption of western science, and I am a committed and unapologetic admirer of science, it has been my career and the largest single influence in my life and thoughts. With the possible exception of my wife. I am a materialist to the core. I think that matter (protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms, stuff like that) is the fundamental reality, and that all actions, thoughts, and feelings, are in principle explicable in terms of physical interactions among bits of matter. What we call 'spirit' or 'mind' consists entirely of matter arranged in complex and subtle ways. That is the underlying assumption of western science, and I am a committed and unapologetic admirer of science. The modern world is almost entirely a product of science. Religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world depend on concepts that have no reality outside the mind, and I find most of them absurd. Religious beliefs are atavistic survivors from an earlier stage of our mental evolution. As our mental capacity expanded over the period of our evolution, we imagined more and more complex realities and populated them with the gods, demons, and spirits of conventional religion. Religiously-based morality and ethics are rationalizations after the fact for the existing social conditions. To the extent that they converge across cultures and times, they simply reflect universally true facts about human social conditions and human nature. Life has whatever meaning we give it, and that meaning is to be found only in terms of our connections with other people and what we can do with and for each other. That’s all there is. The modern world is almost entirely a product of science and the technology it's produced.
Religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world depend on concepts that have no demonstrable reality outside the mind, and I find most of them absurd. Religious beliefs are atavistic survivors from an earlier stage of our mental evolution. We (human beings I mean) have imagined more and more complex realities in our attempts to comprehend the world around us, and populated them with the gods, demons, and spirits of conventional religion as the movers and shakers. Those beliefs have been in steady retreat since we discovered the methods of science a few centuries ago. I can't be the only one who's noticed that the more we know about something, the less willing we are to admit supernatural explanations of it. Much of the history of the last four centuries can be seen as organized religion retreating from its empirical claims about the nature of the world in the face of advancing scientific understanding.
Religiously-based morality and ethics are rationalizations after the fact for existing social conditions. To the extent that they converge across cultures and times, they simply reflect universally true facts about human social conditions and human nature. Life has whatever meaning we give it, and that meaning is to be found only in terms of our connections with other people and what we can do to, with, for, and sometimes in spite of, those we care about. That's all there is. There are no supernatural beings, no gods, no tooth fairies, no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, no demons, no devils, no ghosts, there's no good evidence for any of them.
That's what I believe.
Those of you who used to hang around the old Sympatico forums might recognize that (quick now, anyone, what was my user name there?), it's almost a direct copy & paste of something I once posted there in a thread I started about skeptical thinking. That was a lively and interesting group for a while, and I found this place one day, after being out of the country for a while and too busy professionally to keep up with it, when I went looking in Google for "Sympatico forums" again.
Dex