Ask yourself where all the polticians end up after there done in parliment ?Heads of big corporations .See a pattern scratch my back and I'll scratch yours :evil:
What do you all think of having a socialist government??
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We have tried two major experiments in the last few centuries — Democracy (not its Greek foreshadowing) and Communism.
The Democractic system of government was harnessed to a Capitalist economic system and eventually proved that unhindered, the most vicious capitalists would eventually control all the individual votes through his bank book.
This was redressed, systems to avoid this end-game were set up, and yet now we can see how quickly undemocratic forces can attack and dismantle those safeguards.
The Communist economic system was equally unfortunate to be harnessed to a Totalitarian system of government, which quickly seized control of the wealth, so that all the original hopes for Communism were dashed even faster than those attempting the Democratic experiment.
At the moment, the newest trend in the offing is that Old World horror, Imperialism.
Better we should try a refinement of our two previous experiments by joining the Communist economic system to the Democratic system of government. We can call it Democratic Communism, Communist Democracy, or, if you like, Socialism.
Perhaps we should just call it Bob. Then we might not be so in awe of its name, and take better care of it.
The Democractic system of government was harnessed to a Capitalist economic system and eventually proved that unhindered, the most vicious capitalists would eventually control all the individual votes through his bank book.
This was redressed, systems to avoid this end-game were set up, and yet now we can see how quickly undemocratic forces can attack and dismantle those safeguards.
The Communist economic system was equally unfortunate to be harnessed to a Totalitarian system of government, which quickly seized control of the wealth, so that all the original hopes for Communism were dashed even faster than those attempting the Democratic experiment.
At the moment, the newest trend in the offing is that Old World horror, Imperialism.
Better we should try a refinement of our two previous experiments by joining the Communist economic system to the Democratic system of government. We can call it Democratic Communism, Communist Democracy, or, if you like, Socialism.
Perhaps we should just call it Bob. Then we might not be so in awe of its name, and take better care of it.
uh... if its not broke don't fix it! People living in democratic, capitalist countries (I'll even include Canada on that list) enjoy an unparalleled standard of living. Wealth unimagianable to most people in the world. Communism doesn't work: the lessons of the past century have proved that.
Re: RE: What do you all think of having a socialist governme
Answer - and they have this amazing standard of living WHY?? because they abdicate their social responsibility and allow their government in cooperation with large Corporate interests (read Fascism) to propogate tyrannies in other countries and pillage the resources of those contries with the blessing and assistance of the tyrants. They consume huge amounts of the world's resources and destroy the eco-system with unmanaged pollutants. When their Corporate leaders are through exploiting an area they move on without returning the area to its natural viability.
Nations that would take stewardship of the environment, provide quality of life to all of its people with social responsibility in an air of international Community is a viable alternative. Corporations would be run on a set of principles as originally determined by the acts of incorporation. Then the Corporations could no longer act psychopathically. I'd like to call it Socialism or how about Communityism.
MMMike said:
Answer - and they have this amazing standard of living WHY?? because they abdicate their social responsibility and allow their government in cooperation with large Corporate interests (read Fascism) to propogate tyrannies in other countries and pillage the resources of those contries with the blessing and assistance of the tyrants. They consume huge amounts of the world's resources and destroy the eco-system with unmanaged pollutants. When their Corporate leaders are through exploiting an area they move on without returning the area to its natural viability.
Nations that would take stewardship of the environment, provide quality of life to all of its people with social responsibility in an air of international Community is a viable alternative. Corporations would be run on a set of principles as originally determined by the acts of incorporation. Then the Corporations could no longer act psychopathically. I'd like to call it Socialism or how about Communityism.
Re: RE: What do you all think of having a socialist governme
Do you mean bobbing about in the greasy waters of New Orleans for a fortnight or two because they had the effrontery to become sick, poor, or old?MMMike said:
Re: RE: What do you all think of having a socialist governme
Uh, these people were told to evacuate the city but they elected to stay and take their chances. What the hell does that have to do with capitalism vs communism. I guess no hurricanes hit communist countries?? :? Compared to the entire third world and the second, the poorest of the poor in the US or Canada still have it pretty good. Even the poor have cable tv, phone, running water etc...
GL Schmitt said:
Uh, these people were told to evacuate the city but they elected to stay and take their chances. What the hell does that have to do with capitalism vs communism. I guess no hurricanes hit communist countries?? :? Compared to the entire third world and the second, the poorest of the poor in the US or Canada still have it pretty good. Even the poor have cable tv, phone, running water etc...
Some of those people had no POSSIBLE WAY to get clear of the city in time. No car, no money for a bus or a taxi etc etc. They didn't have near enogh warning to evacuate on foot and nowhere to go if they did. We are talking about dirt poor people. People like that can't afford to just up and walk away on a moments notice. And did anybody send free transportation to the poor areas of the city in advance of the hurricane, I don't think they did. They left these people who couldn't possibly help themselves on their own.
MMMike
The problem was Mike, that most of the people who stayed behind in New Orleans had no cars and couldn't afford to leave. It is one thing to order evacuation, but quite another to provide transportation and make sure people get out.
Back to the original topic; It used to be that Communisum was all bad and Capitalism was all good. Things have changed. When the richest country in the world can't get health care to all it's citizens, something is wrong. The USSR failed because under the socialist/communist system they couldn't provide the trappings that the "capitalist" countries took for granted. They had to change. Right now, the biggest thing wrong with the U.S. is Bush.
The problem was Mike, that most of the people who stayed behind in New Orleans had no cars and couldn't afford to leave. It is one thing to order evacuation, but quite another to provide transportation and make sure people get out.
Back to the original topic; It used to be that Communisum was all bad and Capitalism was all good. Things have changed. When the richest country in the world can't get health care to all it's citizens, something is wrong. The USSR failed because under the socialist/communist system they couldn't provide the trappings that the "capitalist" countries took for granted. They had to change. Right now, the biggest thing wrong with the U.S. is Bush.
Spare me, I have many years on me and I would rather see Harper elected than the greens. No I have never been a Tory and I don't like Harper one bit.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
Spare me, I have many years on me and I would rather see Harper elected than the greens. No I have never been a Tory and I don't like Harper one bit.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
Spare me, I have many years on me and I would rather see Harper elected than the greens. No I have never been a Tory and I don't like Harper one bit.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
Spare me, I have many years on me and I would rather see Harper elected than the greens. No I have never been a Tory and I don't like Harper one bit.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
I have even run for public office myself. Funny thing is I did what so many people wanted done. I answered people questions up front. I didn't stick solely to party line, if I believed there was a better way I said so. I even went so far as to stick up for other candidates who were not being fairly treated at public debates.
The results? In some cases opponents were mad because they thought I had a hidden agenda. People were ticked because I didn't agree with their view of the world and I told them so straight up front. My own party was mad as hell because I said there was some weaknesses that should be thought out more clearly. And your right, I didn't get elected.
See the fact is the world is not simply black and white and people
don't like it when you are up front honest with them.
What is the best form of government? Well Tommy Douglas of Saskatchewan demonstrated that many years ago. He was socially progressive and somewhat fiscally conservative. He formed the first CCF government in all of Canada.
In fact you wouldn't have many of the things you have today, like pensions, medicare, child tax credit formerly family allowance if it had not been for the CCF federally and provincially.
Social Democracy does work.
The biggest reason why we are in so much trouble today is that those who vote are not politically involved in the affairs of their country. In many cases its not the politicians its the people who put them there that are to blame.
Re: RE: What do you all think of having a socialist governme
Exactly, MMMike. Another noteworthy example would be the standard of life enjoyed by prisoners in the US and Canada. Cable TV, library, gym, 3 meals/day ...etc). We give our prisoners a better quality of life than most folks have in third world countries.
MMMike said:
Exactly, MMMike. Another noteworthy example would be the standard of life enjoyed by prisoners in the US and Canada. Cable TV, library, gym, 3 meals/day ...etc). We give our prisoners a better quality of life than most folks have in third world countries.
Andygal said:
There were empty school buses that should have been used instead of sitting in a parking lot. Once the President had declared a state of emergency, the mayor of New Orleans should have gotten those buses in motion to evacuate the folks left behind.
Re: RE: What do you all think of having a socialist governme
one of the major problems that plagued communism and socialist governments from the begining is that deliberate attempt on the part of the united states to dismantle liberally progressive governments so as to keep poorer contries poor and keep their people from organizing......this would in turn further driver the economic engine of america. countless governments have been overthrown by the states in the past, and in their place another dictator is appointed, but one that will cater to the needs of foriegn investment. the fact of the matter is that capitalism in its pure form, "laize faire capitalism", is a concept fun on greed......it keeps the working man subordinated, but with just enough that we dont question it and keep on supporting it.
MMMike said:
one of the major problems that plagued communism and socialist governments from the begining is that deliberate attempt on the part of the united states to dismantle liberally progressive governments so as to keep poorer contries poor and keep their people from organizing......this would in turn further driver the economic engine of america. countless governments have been overthrown by the states in the past, and in their place another dictator is appointed, but one that will cater to the needs of foriegn investment. the fact of the matter is that capitalism in its pure form, "laize faire capitalism", is a concept fun on greed......it keeps the working man subordinated, but with just enough that we dont question it and keep on supporting it.
RE: What do you all think
Anyway, ignoring those who haven't got a clue what socialism is and willing to give away their rights so corporations can make huge profits...
Yes, and I gave several examples.
There is nothing within democratic socialism that would indicate that small business would not succeed or prohibiting incentives for them.
Tax cuts for the wealthy and for multinational corporations tend to take money out of the economy. All that yarking about investment does not hold up because the capital tends to go south. Give the tax breaks to the middle class on down.
Clearly it is broken though. We should fix it.
Anyway, ignoring those who haven't got a clue what socialism is and willing to give away their rights so corporations can make huge profits...
Yes, and I gave several examples.
There is nothing within democratic socialism that would indicate that small business would not succeed or prohibiting incentives for them.
Tax cuts for the wealthy and for multinational corporations tend to take money out of the economy. All that yarking about investment does not hold up because the capital tends to go south. Give the tax breaks to the middle class on down.
Clearly it is broken though. We should fix it.
Churchill said of democracy: It is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. IMO same goes for free-market capitalism. Sure, there are downsides (particularly of the new capitalism/globalism): widening gap between rich & poor, uncertainty and turmoil, loss of stability etc... but on the whole the overall wealth of society increases. The more you try to smooth out the bumps (by income redistribution, trade barriers or tough labour laws), the more you slow down the 'machine' and the overall wealth decreases.
Re: RE: What do you all think
No kind of way. There should be no special privilege for anyone. We are all equal citizens. Categorzing someone as second class and making them pay more taxes is downright discrimination. I work hard for my money just as does the next guy and if anyone tells me that I deserve to keep less of it simply cause I earn more, then I say that individual is a leftie asking for a free handout.
Reverend Blair said:
No kind of way. There should be no special privilege for anyone. We are all equal citizens. Categorzing someone as second class and making them pay more taxes is downright discrimination. I work hard for my money just as does the next guy and if anyone tells me that I deserve to keep less of it simply cause I earn more, then I say that individual is a leftie asking for a free handout.
MMMike said:
And what about the millions that have been killed and the countless lies that have been told to sustain capitalism.......sure it seems good now, but thats from our vantage point, what about someone elses, and besides that, capitalism is driven by greed......once one country has been raped, its on to another.....this practice is not sustainable.
RE: What do you all think
Democracy is not not tied to free market capitalism, MMMike. Besides that, what is referred to as free market capitalism is anything but.
It's interesting that you mentioned the widening gap between rich and poor. If you at history, you will find that as the gap widens the chances of revolution...basically class warfare...increases drastically. That's how you end up with leaders like Lenin and Stalin.
Democracy is not not tied to free market capitalism, MMMike. Besides that, what is referred to as free market capitalism is anything but.
It's interesting that you mentioned the widening gap between rich and poor. If you at history, you will find that as the gap widens the chances of revolution...basically class warfare...increases drastically. That's how you end up with leaders like Lenin and Stalin.