Welcome to NHL Hockey!

[bill barilko]

black hawks will never forget sam gagne for the rest of their careers, 4 goals, 4 assists against them last night.

An outstanding achievement!

 

[talloola]

An outstanding achievement!

he was almost apologetic last night when interviewed after the game, as he

was just as flaberghasted as everyone else, said everything he did seem to

end up in the net.

what great memories he will have of that night.

 

[Mowich]

James Reimer got his second straight shut-out as the Leafs took a 5 to zip win over the Sens last night. Reimer had 49 stops on the night as the Sens were out-shot 49 to 40.

Phil Kessel got his 29th of the season and two assists as did Tyler Bozak. Cody Franson also got a goal and an assist and Leaf's captain Dion Phaneuf banged one in on a pass from Kessel during a Leaf's PP. Luke Schenn got his third of the year early in the 3rd period.

Great game by the Leafs.

Meanwhile, Sam Gagner continues to light up the Oilers team scoring two goals and an assist as the Oilers managed a 5 to 4 win over the Red Wings last night.

 

[talloola]

I watched the oiler/wings game, oilers played very well, almost lost it late in the game, but similar
to canucks, they tied the game with less than a minute to play, although they played much better than canucks did earlier in the day.

yep, gagne is just rolling along, wonder what the management is thinking now, I'll bet they're rethinking
trading him at trade deadline, although his stock went up significantly in the last 3 days.

 

[Mowich]

Hi Talloola;


I value your opinion on hockey above all others here on the forum. I was actually thinking of PMing you on this book because I would appreciate your thoughts on what Adam Proteau has to say about extreme violence in hockey.

Adam Proteau has been a columnist for the Hockey News for over a decade. In addition, his work can be found in the G&M, TO Star and at ESPN.com, FoxSports.com, MSNBC.com, and Sympatico.ca. As a member of the Professional Hockey Writer’s Association, he won the award in 2006 for best column of the year.

He played hockey as a young man in the Weston Minor Hockey League where he was an All-Star defenseman. And what gives his words some added weight is the fact that he was a ‘goon’ when he played the game. He came close to being kicked out of the league for his on-ice behaviour. As he writes of those days and how as a young man he perceived the treatment of his peers compared to how his parents and their friends felt, he found himself in deep conflict over how he played the game. This confusion eventually led to his withdrawal from playing the game.

One of the aspects of the game that Adam focuses on is the fact that players now are left to police the game themselves wreaking out their own brand of retribution for either perceived for actual acts of aggression because the league refuses to do so. And that just should not be. It doesn’t happen anywhere else in the sports world and the fact that it is allowed to happen in the NHL is simply shameful. No one can tell me that the level of competition would be lowered by simply giving our players better protection. No such demise in the spirit of the game was seen when other professional sports teams were given an iron-clad set of rules and regulations accompanied by fines of a size to get the attention of the players and management alike.

Neither you nor I would stomach watching our CFL players go at each other the way our NHL guys are allowed to do. We would voice our objections loudly and clearly. That we need not do so is due to the fact that the CFL, like the NFL, the NBA and other sports leagues have acted wisely and well in dealing with any such behaviour from their players. In the CFL, as we both know, if a player or players are involved in a fight it results in an immediate game ejection and a hefty fine plus the loss of yards on the play. As a matter of fact in the CFL immediate disqualification can result from rough play, illegal equipment, excessive objectionable conduct and even spitting. So why should we sit back and watch as some of our best players in the NHL are sidelined with injuries that need never have happened.
Concerning Colin Campbell and his reprehensible remarks about players and the game, here is his direct quote and the link to an article containing it.

Research by the Star has found at least 30 players whose careers were ended by concussion – or in large part due to concussion – since 1996, when the issue was given more attention after the early retirement of Brett Lindros. But Colin Campbell, the NHL's executive vice-president and director of hockey operations, believes that number is inflated.

"Some are legitimate," said Campbell. "I think some you might find aren't legitimate. ... I think there's a small percentage, not a great percentage, of players who use it as an excuse, `Oh yeah, I've got a concussion.' They can milk it. It's a hard thing to really say that you haven't, you know, if you're trying to get some extra insurance money out of it to get paid an extra year or something."

Campbell also said at the time the lack of respect theory – which was raised again by Don Cherry this week – was "a crock."
"I just think that that's overblown and the players who say it don't understand," he said. "Players are competitive. We sell hate. Our game sells hate. You guys, the media, sell hate. ... It was worse (in the '70s when he played), in my opinion."

Randy Starkman's Olympics blog

There are many who put up arguments specious or not as to why the league should remain just as it is now. One of the most prevailing is that audiences would fall off in the wake of rules changes affecting fighting and egregious violence. I would counter-balance that argument with the fact that during the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver more people in the United States tuned into to watch the Gold Medal game between Canada and the US than any broadcast since the XIII Olympics in Lake Placid when the US Men’s team was pitted against that of the Soviet Union. 27.6 million Americans tuned in for the 2010 game. That is more than took in the Masters Golf tourney (14.3 mil), or the most-watched game from the 2009 World Series (22.8 mil), or car racings’ Daytona 500 (16 mil) or the 2010 Rose Bowl (24 mil). The US viewing audience actually topped out at 34.8 million viewers when the 2010 game in Vancouver went to OT. Here in Canada, the Gold Medal game at the Olympics was the single most-watched sports event in the history of the country with nearly two-thirds of Canadians or 26.5 million of us watching the game. Yet not a single fight marred the game and in total there were only four penalties called during regulation time and none during the OT.


Talloola, I would urge you to find a copy of Adam’s book – I borrowed mine from the local library – and read it. I believe it will change your outlook on the level of violence now tolerated in the NHL and why there is a pressing need for reformation.

 

[talloola]

Hi Talloola;


when he states that the teams are left to police themselves, he is completely wrong.

The instigator rule prevents teams from having enforcers (goons) to skate around like bodyguards, just to fight when they see their own certain players being bodychecked.
That was allowed, and sometimes groups of players were fighting at once, doesn't happen anymore.
Last night a group of players began to get into a frenzie, but it was soon stopped, and nothing much
happened in the way of fighting.
I also don't believe that the game is left unprotected, I see lots of improvement over the last few
years, and with shanahan it has taken another step forward to initiate severe suspensions for severe
infractions.
Concussions are being addressed, and now doctors can diagnose a concussion, and the player has to do
the rest, back then, it was just getting your bell rung, and get back as quickly as you can, probably
the next game.
I don't believe players milk anything, they want to be on the ice, they want to play, because they know
that if they are out of the lineup too long, someone else will take their place.

Colin Campbell is a player from the past, not the present, shanahan is a player from the present, and in
my opinion we all should stay in the present and not dwell on what happened to players long ago that is
gone nothing anyone can do about that now, but we can concentrate on what is happening now, and I see
progress.

As far as the fighting goes, that is a separate issue concerning violence, (apart from head shots when
body checking etc.)

I am real tired of constantly reading about what people 'away' from the game 'who
dislike and disagree with how the game is played, and don't go to games, seem to
have all of the sarcastic answers, and make statements of how hockey people and fans
think, but in reality they know next to nothing about the game and the players.

I have stated before that I hate the planned fights, they should get rid of those. As far as the
spontaneous fights, I will just leave that to the players, players association, and the NHL, as they
are the ones involved, and they have to figure it out.
I still don't see the concussions coming from fights, of course that can happen,
but on the whole the concussions come from illegal bodychecing. I see the concussions coming from head shots during
the game, as illegal bodychecks.

The players accept and deal with fighting very easily, they seem to use fighting
for different outcomes. They settle built up emotions with a fight, when things
have risen to the frenzy state, and all of a sudden a fight breaks out, and all of a
sudden it is over, and all of a sudden, everything settles down.
A player will start up a fight when his team has not risen to the occasion to
match the intensity of the other team, a fight seems to wake them up, get them
going, and they have stated as much on occasion.
A fight will energize the team, they feed off of it, they appreciate their player
who puts himself on the line, and drops his gloves and squares off with another
player.
As much as many outside the game hate the fighting, when one would look inside the
game, and watch the men who actually play the game, including the coaches and managers, they seem to enjoy the intensity and the energy of a fight.

I do understand the outsider feeling of the goons of the past, they really could
not blend with the rest of the team on an equal basis, they weren't equal, and they
would know they were only there for their goon play, and to create havoc by fighting.
Those players are not in the game any longer, the tough players who also fight can
also play, so they do feel equal, they are equal, they can play, they can feel like
a contributor to the game, so that aspect is 'gone' from the game.

Players who are goons are few and far between now, so that is improvement too, the goons couldn't play
the game, but they would fight, be institgators etc.

The game is too fast, too high end now and none of those goon type players from the past would ever make a team today.

I would like to hear the people who play the game, shanahan, who is in charge of diciplinary decisions,
and others talk about fighting, and hear their input, i'm so tired of those 'who don't watch the game'
deciding that everyone comes to see fighting and violence, and I don't find that to be true, but I
do know when a fight breaks out, everyone stands up, because a fight always creates that, it is a
part of the game that has mixed emotions, fear, excitement, cheering for your own guy to be better,
etc., but if fighting was eliminated, very few people would stay home, there isn't enough fighting in
the game to cause people to pay the money they do, to come to games.

So, when the word violence is used concerning hockey, it is all about fighting I guess, and in my
opinion the serious injuries are from others sources, and I see the league addressing those now,
and it will take time, but when players sit out enough, and get more suspensions for repeat offenses,
they will get the message.

I really am not interested in reading a book that deals with the past, I am concentrating on the 'now' and
watching and seeing progress. A player who writes a book, who was a goon player,
obviously has some issues, well that is the past, it is gone, lets deal with the
here and the now.

Hockey is a tough mans game,even the so called gentlemen players are tough guys,
no one could play this game who aren't mentally and physically tough, and is certainly not for those who hate to see body checking and players being hit and
falling and bouncing off the boards, it is a rough game, a fast game, a game on skates which makes it rather dangerous,
they carry sticks which cause some high sticking, but I see the high sticking as 'accidental' in the game
now, long ago there was stick swinging incidents and intentional high sticking, don't see that any
more.

I am a person who is totally involved all during the hockey season, and watch many
games a week. I notice much improvement and progress since the change in the
diciplinary process, and also much attention is being payed to the information
about concussions, and that is also being addressed by the league, and that is an
ongoing process.
I also see very clearly how much faster and bigger the players are now compared to
years ago, and can also see how that creates a much bigger impact when they hit
each other, the speed creates all of that, hence more injuries.

It is very easy to figure out why many of the critics can't see what I see, as they
don't watch the games, they just bitch about them without keeping up with the times.

Those who write about the game as 'all' violent and say it should stop, must stipulate exactly what
parts of the game they are opposed to, so those areas can be discussed separate, and not just put
everything together as though the whole game is violent.

One aspect of the game that needs a big improvement is the 'officiating', the game
is so fast now, that they miss lots of infractions, not anything horrible, but
enough to see how teams suffer under poor officiating, too many calls are missed,
and too many are called wrong.

 

[Mowich]

when he states that the teams are left to police themselves, he is completely wrong.

He doesn't state that the teams police themselves, talloola. He states that the players are left to police themselves as is evidenced by by the fact that there are still players in the NHL, call them what you like, who are the designated 'fighters' on the team and who are given the job of 'taking care' of certain opponents.

The instigator rule prevents teams from having enforcers (goons) to skate around like bodyguards, just to fight when they see their own certain players being bodychecked.

It may prevent players from having 'body guards' as such but you and I both know players whose only job is to cause as much trouble as they can and they get away with it time after time with barely a slap on the wrist. I am sure you could quickly name a few of them.

I also don't believe that the game is left unprotected, I see lots of improvement over the last few years, and with shanahan it has taken another step forward to initiate severe suspensions for severe infractions.

I agree, talloola. It is not the game left unprotected, rather it is the players. At this time, the penalties and punishments handed out by both referees, who are just as befuddled as the players, and the league are so unevenly distributed as to leave both parties in a quandary. As former referee Kerry Fraser states: “The officials are so confused, they don't know what is or isn't' a penalty. That's just the reality of it."

Concussions are being addressed

They are tallola but what about the reasons behind them. Why do players get concussions? Is there anything that can be done to prevent them from happening?

I don't believe players milk anything, they want to be on the ice, they want to play, because they know that if they are out of the lineup too long, someone else will take their place.

I completely agree, talloola.

Colin Campbell is a player from the past, not the present, shanahan is a player from the present, and in my opinion we all should stay in the present and not dwell on what happened to players long ago that is gone nothing anyone can do about that now, but we can concentrate on what is happening now, and I see progress.

There has been progress, talloola and I don’t advocate ‘dwelling’ on the past either. However, there are times that the past catches up with us and we are forced to look back as will happen this fall when the trial of Tod Bertuzzi begins.
Moore-Bertuzzi civil case has 2012 start date

As far as the fighting goes, that is a separate issue concerning violence, (apart from head shots when body checking etc.)

There will always be fights in hockey just as fights happen in other sports. It is the way fights are dealt with that separates the NHL from other types of sports.

I am real tired of constantly reading about what people 'away' from the game 'who dislike and disagree with how the game is played, and don't go to games, seem to have all of the sarcastic answers, and make statements of how hockey people and fans
think, but in reality they know next to nothing about the game and the players.

Don't blame you a bit for feeling that way.

I have stated before that I hate the planned fights, they should get rid of those.

It is the reasons behind the 'planned fights' that need to be addressed in my opinion.

As far as the spontaneous fights, I will just leave that to the players, players association, and the NHL, as they are the ones involved, and they have to figure it out.

We can only hope that they do just that.

I still don't see the concussions coming from fights, of course that can happen

And has happened when a player has sustained numerous head shots in fights over a number of years.

but on the whole the concussions come from illegal bodychecing. I see the concussions coming from head shots during the game, as illegal bodychecks.

And some current medical studies would back that up.

The players accept and deal with fighting very easily

That does not apply across the board talloola. Some former 'fighters' have spoken out about the anxiety and stress they have undergone prior to a fight and that their only release comes after the fight is over. Some of them have taken to alcohol and drugs in order to get through.

they seem to use fighting for different outcomes. They settle built up emotions with a fight, when things have risen to the frenzy state, and all of a sudden a fight breaks out, and all of a sudden it is over, and all of a sudden, everything settles down.
A player will start up a fight when his team has not risen to the occasion to match the intensity of the other team, a fight seems to wake them up, get them going, and they have stated as much on occasion.
A fight will energize the team, they feed off of it, they appreciate their player who puts himself on the line, and drops his gloves and squares off with another player.

Again I would point out that fighting is not allowed in other sports and when it happens is dealt with severely so why should hockey be any different. Football and rugby are 'manly sports' with a lot of physical contact and pent up emotion. Yet let any player stoop so low as to punch another and they are met with an automatic game expulsion and the possibility of further suspension.

As much as many outside the game hate the fighting, when one would look inside the game, and watch the men who actually play the game, including the coaches and managers, they seem to enjoy the intensity and the energy of a fight.

There are those within the game who also question the need for fighting. Not all of them are united in their enjoyment of the fight but you won't catch them showing anything but positive emotions on a nationally broadcast game.

I do understand the outsider feeling of the goons of the past, they really could not blend with the rest of the team on an equal basis, they weren't equal, and they would know they were only there for their goon play, and to create havoc by fighting. Those players are not in the game any longer, the tough players who also fight can also play, so they do feel equal, they are equal, they can play, they can feel like a contributor to the game, so that aspect is 'gone' from the game.

Not completely.

Players who are goons are few and far between now, so that is improvement too, the goons couldn't play the game, but they would fight, be institgators etc.

True, but sometimes one goon is all it takes to knock out a star player.

I would like to hear the people who play the game, shanahan, who is in charge of diciplinary decisions,and others talk about fighting, and hear their input,

As a matter of fact players like Matthieu Schneider who is currently with the NHLPA; Murray Costello, former player and past pres of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association; Keith Primeau who played 15 years in the league; David Branch – pres of the Canadian Hockey League; former 15-year Flyer Ian Laperriere; Alyn McCauley who played with the Leafs, Sharks, and Kings but was forced to retire at age 30 due to injuries; David Perron formerly of the Blues, and many others I could name, have all come forward to speak about changes needed in the NHL.

but if fighting was eliminated, very few people would stay home, there isn't enough fighting in the game to cause people to pay the money they do, to come to games.

And the stats covering viewing audiences for Olympic hockey or IIHF hockey would back you up on that, talloola. Sure the game has its fanatics who insist that fighting etc be an integral part of the game but I believe the majority of fans do not feel that way at all. I believe the majority of fans would rather be treated to a fast paced, well-played game that showcased the true talents of the athletes involved.

I really am not interested in reading a book that deals with the past, I am concentrating on the 'now' and watching and seeing progress. A player who writes a book, who was a goon player, obviously has some issues, well that is the past, it is gone, lets deal with the here and the now.

Just as the former goon turned author is now doing.

Hockey is a tough mans game

Again, the same could be said of football which is not exactly for the faint of heart.

even the so called gentlemen players are tough guys, no one could play this game who aren't mentally and physically tough, and is certainly not for those who hate to see body checking and players being hit and falling and bouncing off the boards, it is a rough game, a fast game, a game on skates which makes it rather dangerous, they carry sticks which cause some high sticking, but I see the high sticking as 'accidental' in the game now, long ago there was stick swinging incidents and intentional high sticking, don't see that any more.

It is all of that talloola but under controlled circumstances such as those we see in Olympic and IIHF hockey the game is just as exciting and just a rough, fast, and dangerous but without the injuries seen in the NHL.

I notice much improvement and progress since the change in the diciplinary process, and also much attention is being payed to the information about concussions, and that is also being addressed by the league, and that is an ongoing process.

All true.

I also see very clearly how much faster and bigger the players are now compared to years ago, and can also see how that creates a much bigger impact when they hit each other, the speed creates all of that, hence more injuries.

Again, all true.

It is very easy to figure out why many of the critics can't see what I see, as they don't watch the games, they just bitch about them without keeping up with the times.

Then they shouldn't be critical of the game should they.

Those who write about the game as 'all' violent and say it should stop, must stipulate exactly what parts of the game they are opposed to, so those areas can be discussed separate, and not just put everything together as though the whole game is violent.

And you would be right in doing so, talloola.
What I am specifically opposed to is the fact that current penalties and fines levied do not match the gravity of some of the incidences of extreme violence such as throwing a player head first into the boards with obvious intent to injure. Nor do they do much to discourage behavior such as slashing and tripping either of which has the potential to cause serious injury.
I do not believe the game of hockey to be violent. I do believe that some players are the very embodiment of violence and that the sooner the league is rid of every last one of them the better. Yet as I write that I believe, given the correct application of a clear and binding set of rules and regulations, the need for enforcer types would vanish. Until that happens, the punishment must start fitting the crime.

One aspect of the game that needs a big improvement is the 'officiating', the game is so fast now, that they miss lots of infractions, not anything horrible, but enough to see how teams suffer under poor officiating, too many calls are missed,and too many are called wrong.

Improvements in the game will only come about when some of the dinosaurs that currently mask themselves as NHL owners get past the idea that blood and guts are a necessary part of hockey. As more owners like Mario Lemieux start to speak out against the current state of affairs in the league, the greater the chances are that players will get the protection they deserve and the game of hockey will remain a treasured part of our lives.

 

[talloola]

He doesn't state that the teams police themselves, talloola. He states that the players are left to police themselves as is evidenced by by the fact that there are still players in the NHL, call them what you like, who are the designated 'fighters' on the team and who are given the job of 'taking care' of certain opponents.


It may prevent players from having 'body guards' as such but you and I both know players whose only job is to cause as much trouble as they can and they get away with it time after time with barely a slap on the wrist. I am sure you could quickly name a few of them.

I agree, talloola. It is not the game left unprotected, rather it is the players. At this time, the penalties and punishments handed out by both referees, who are just as befuddled as the players, and the league are so unevenly distributed as to leave both parties in a quandary. As former referee Kerry Fraser states: “The officials are so confused, they don't know what is or isn't' a penalty. That's just the reality of it."

They are tallola but what about the reasons behind them. Why do players get concussions? Is there anything that can be done to prevent them from happening?

I completely agree, talloola.
There has been progress, talloola and I don’t advocate ‘dwelling’ on the past either. However, there are times that the past catches up with us and we are forced to look back as will happen this fall when the trial of Tod Bertuzzi begins.
Moore-Bertuzzi civil case has 2012 start date


There will always be fights in hockey just as fights happen in other sports. It is the way fights are dealt with that separates the NHL from other types of sports.

Don't blame you a bit for feeling that way.

It is the reasons behind the 'planned fights' that need to be addressed in my opinion.

We can only hope that they do just that.

And has happened when a player has sustained numerous head shots in fights over a number of years.

And some current medical studies would back that up.

That does not apply across the board talloola. Some former 'fighters' have spoken out about the anxiety and stress they have undergone prior to a fight and that their only release comes after the fight is over. Some of them have taken to alcohol and drugs in order to get through.

Again I would point out that fighting is not allowed in other sports and when it happens is dealt with severely so why should hockey be any different. Football and rugby are 'manly sports' with a lot of physical contact and pent up emotion. Yet let any player stoop so low as to punch another and they are met with an automatic game expulsion and the possibility of further suspension.
There are those within the game who also question the need for fighting. Not all of them are united in their enjoyment of the fight but you won't catch them showing anything but positive emotions on a nationally broadcast game.

Not completely.

True, but sometimes one goon is all it takes to knock out a star player.

As a matter of fact players like Matthieu Schneider who is currently with the NHLPA; Murray Costello, former player and past pres of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association; Keith Primeau who played 15 years in the league; David Branch – pres of the Canadian Hockey League; former 15-year Flyer Ian Laperriere; Alyn McCauley who played with the Leafs, Sharks, and Kings but was forced to retire at age 30 due to injuries; David Perron formerly of the Blues, and many others I could name, have all come forward to speak about changes needed in the NHL.


And the stats covering viewing audiences for Olympic hockey or IIHF hockey would back you up on that, talloola. Sure the game has its fanatics who insist that fighting etc be an integral part of the game but I believe the majority of fans do not feel that way at all. I believe the majority of fans would rather be treated to a fast paced, well-played game that showcased the true talents of the athletes involved.

Just as the former goon turned author is now doing.

Again, the same could be said of football which is not exactly for the faint of heart.

It is all of that talloola but under controlled circumstances such as those we see in Olympic and IIHF hockey the game is just as exciting and just a rough, fast, and dangerous but without the injuries seen in the NHL.


All true.

Again, all true.

Then they shouldn't be critical of the game should they.

And you would be right in doing so, talloola.
What I am specifically opposed to is the fact that current penalties and fines levied do not match the gravity of some of the incidences of extreme violence such as throwing a player head first into the boards with obvious intent to injure. Nor do they do much to discourage behavior such as slashing and tripping either of which has the potential to cause serious injury.
I do not believe the game of hockey to be violent. I do believe that some players are the very embodiment of violence and that the sooner the league is rid of every last one of them the better. Yet as I write that I believe, given the correct application of a clear and binding set of rules and regulations, the need for enforcer types would vanish. Until that happens, the punishment must start fitting the crime.

Improvements in the game will only come about when some of the dinosaurs that currently mask themselves as NHL owners get past the idea that blood and guts are a necessary part of hockey. As more owners like Mario Lemieux start to speak out against the current state of affairs in the league, the greater the chances are that players will get the protection they deserve and the game of hockey will remain a treasured part of our lives.

I do not agree that some players are on the team as fighters 'only', but they are the ones who usually
fight, but can still play the game, hence, and equal part of the team. If any of those players have a
big problem with being one of the guys who steps to fight, and says nothing, then he is not being
responsible to himself.
I don't believe the players are left to police themselves. The players are individual humans, not robots,
and not wild and unruly, and I again I don't believe any players are on the team just to fight, that
aspect of the game is gone, the players who are willing and want to be the fighters, are still hockey
players. eg. brad marchant, who is young and many times very stupid, is a very good player, just immature,
makes dumb decisions, and must grow and and get hold of himself or he will find himself getting more
and more suspensions, 'that is not letting the players police themselves', it is punishing the player
for unacceptable behavior, and I do believe marchant will learn, as he doesn't want to keep missing more
and more games. There are others who are similar, but I must say the list is getting smaller.
The officials are 'not' confused, they know exactly what the rules are, but they miss calls, as the game
is so fast, and they also make mistakes, but it isn't because they are confused.
The trail of bertuzzi isn't an example of looking at behavior that was common, rather something so far
from the game, that it is in the courts, which shows that extreme behavior such as he exhibited will not
go unnoticed, either within the game or outside the game.
Not sure what you mean, 'how the fights are dealt with', they are given 5 min fighting penalties. The
fights are closely monitored, linesmen step in as soon as they see it is needed, as soon as either or
both players fall down, and as soon as either players signals he has had enough, or as soon as any
injury might be spotted, (rarely), and on the part of the players, (eg. last night, when I watched),
as soon as one opponant fell down the other while straddled over him, immediately stopped, made sure
he didn't continue the fight, and we see that behavior all the time, it is respecting each other, even
while fighting, and not taking unfair advantage of the other, who might be in a vulnerable position.
The fighting does not go to the diciplinary department, there is no need for that.
Yeah, why should hockey be any different, well because it is hockey, and those inside the game will be
decide if they want fighting to continue or not. Each sport has their people to make those decisions,
just as football have theirs, and 'if' they 'all' decide to continue to let fighting be part of the
game, then they will, don't know what anyone can do about that. It would seem they just haven't come
to that point in time yet, and if and when they do, they will move on it, and if they don't, they won't.
do you think outside groups, or government should step in and force them to eliminate fighting?
I allready addressed the issue about concussions, can't say much more, and I don't see fighting being
the main reason for concussions, although their might be some individuals who have problems later on,
but I put that responsibility on the individual, 'just don't fight', you don't have to fight, no one
is forcing you to fight, and todays tough players also play the game very well, so put your energy
there, and not into fighting, and if you are that strong, then you can find a way to contain another
player without dropping the gloves, and I don't believe any coach would criticize you for doing that,
as long as you are showing you can use your smarts and strength together and get the job done.
Coaches do not send players onto the ice to fight any more, that is 'old' time hockey, and those
with experience and bad memories of their own careers can atest to that, but they must see the game
of today, and not dwell on the past, everything moves forward, and hockey is doing that just fine.
Sure, one goon, should big steps be taken because of isolated situations, goons are almost zero in
the game, in fact I can't think of one.
Pronger on boston bruins can act like an idiot, but if 'no' one wants to act the same, his behavior will
look even sillier, BUT I must add that, I have watched many bruins game this season, and 99% of the
time he is a hard nosed hard working player, not the guy who wanted to change the world in the
stanley cup finals.
If players are only getting a slap on the wrist for unacceptable behavior it is the officials who
must take note of that, and their superiors.
I do not think there are players who are only there to cause trouble, some who do cause trouble at
times will pay the consequences, depending on their actions.
The alchohol and drugs or whatever that some players have taken because of anxiety about fighting,
have to look in the mirror 'in todays hockey', just don't fight then. There was a time where those
types of people found a way to 'get' into the NHL, because they could fight, and if they are suffering
bad symptoms and mental anxiety either now, or then, it is also their responsibility. Those types
of players are not in todays game, todays game has real hockey players, and if some of them choose
to be the tough, fighting kind of player, they must look in the mirror and ask themselves if they
really want that aspect of the game to belong to them, again, no one is making them fight, just
play the game.
The players who were on teams just to fight are a thing of the past, not in todays hockey.

This seems to be all about fighting, and the owners, NHL executives, managers, players, coaches,
and whoever other will have to deal with that, and when they see fit to stop fighting, they will.
Until then, not sure what anyone else can do about it, it is their business.

Players can refuse to fight if they choose to do so, just don't do it.

Most players in the game, dont fight, they can do it, so any of them can do it, if they want to.

Just a side not about my experience watching Sane Jose last night play chicago.

Jonathan Toews was taking a pretty good beating all through the first period, mostly legal bodychecking,
but it was obvious that san jose had a game plan to get 'him' off of his game, so they targeted him
pretty hard, and I did see one infraction that was missed, although it wasn't flagrant, it should have
been a penalty on the sane jose player.
By the end of the period I was really ranting and raving at san jose for being so heavy on him, 'now'
suppose I was a chicago player, this brings the human behavior aspect into the game, and it is very
difficult to see your star player get tossed around, time after time, and do nothing about it. There
was one sqirmish, and during that sqirmish joe thornton punched toews in the face, twice, and many
players were also pushing and shoving, officials penalized thornton and toews, although toews did nothing
to deserve that penalty, and after the dust settled san jose was on a power play and scored a goal.
More ranting from me.
So, if you put yourself in their 'shoes' (skates), it is really difficult to be calm and controlled
while all of these things are happening on the ice, and us fans sitting in our living rooms or at the
games feel those feelings too.
The built up frenzy after continuous little problems on the ice, mixed with bad calls/non calls by
officials do tend to come to an explosion once in a while, 'a fight', and after the fight, the air
is cleared, and the game goes on, and I also find it very amazing, (as a woman) to see how men can
immediately shed the anger from a fight, and even pat the other one on the shoulder, and return to
normal feelings, and get on with the game.
If anyone ever punched me in the face, I would be so mad I would hit back, and be mad at that person
for the rest of my life. lol
What the author is doing now is still suffering from his hockey life, and realizes how it hurt him,
it seems, although I have not read the book, but it seems that way to me, from your description.
His hockey life is not the life of todays hockey player.
Kerry Fraser said that statement a couple of years ago, not long after rule changes were made, but
since then they have figured it out, there is no confusion, rules are very clear now, but officials
are not able to see everything, game is too fast, and on top of that, they just make mistakes, as
the game is much easier to see from above, and on televisions, and we get instant replays, they
don't.
A few senior officials retired last season, so it seems some of the officials are fairly new to
the NHL, and it will take some time for them to become as good as the ones who retired, I guess
that is to be expected, but 'confused'? no.

perron is still playing with the blues, just saw him the other night. He was out for a long time
but back now. A very good player.

Injuries will keep happening, can't be prevented unless the NHL decides to have 'non contact' hockey,
which would end up with no spectators. We can see non contact hockey any time, in many rinks.
That is not what the players want to do, they love their game as rough and as fast as it can be,
they are the ones who desire to play that way, it is their game, and the concussion issue is being
addressed, the punishment handed out better and better all the time, so it seems the problem with
most, is all about fighting.
The medical staff is right up to snuff on concussions, so the down time for players is being addressed
much better now, although in the end, it is the player who really knows if he is ready or not, even
after medical clearance, so the responsibility rests on 'him', in the end, as it should.

If the majority of the fans wish a game with no fighting, then they must gather in mass and relate
that to the NHL, through group meetings, letters, etc, and stay away from the games until fighting
is gone, but until they do that, it is the NHL and all who are connected, who are responsible for
making that decision.
fans can whine and complain, but I only see that from a small amount of people, and mostly people who
hate hockey and don't attend games, and talk about the past when they did watch, and they continue
to live in the past when it comes to hockey, but somehow see themselves as an expert on how the
game should be, but they think it is still like they remembered it, and it is much different indeed.
I watched it in the past for years, saw the gradual change, saw the big change after the lock out,
and see the game today as better than ever.
I see all of the people in hockey as much smarter than ever, the players much better.
Coaching is fantastic, scouts are better, drafting is better, minor hockey is better.
All equipment is better, medical staffs are better, they have sleep doctors, dieticians and there
is no such thing as ignoring the health of one's body, fittness is so important now, there are no
players who are lazy, they can't be.
One can see the improvement of the mentality of players when they are interviewed, as many are very
well spoken, and not one dumb jock, who is considered a knuckle dragger, those are gone from the game.

OK, i'm outa here, we will probably get banned permanately for taking up so much room, sorry to all
about that, I will shut up now. lol

 

[Mowich]

Get banned for a long post - not a chance talloola. I enjoyed reading your post very much. You always make good points about the game and your knowledge of hockey present and past is phenomenal. Thank for taking the time to reply.

Now I am off to watch the Hockey Day in Canada games. Jets and Pens up first. Go Jets!

 

[talloola]

I just watched nashville defeat chicago to give chicago their 6th straight loss.

Its very interesting at this time of the season, approx 25 games remaining, to see the jogging
of position in the standings, and it is also surprising to see a few teams which were thought to
be very strong, now sliding somewhat.
chicago blackhawks, not sure whats going on there, but I don't expect them to stay in 13th spot
for long, but they just don't look like themselves right now.

san jose sharks, sitting in 9th, aren't looking as strong as I would have expected at this time
of season, we'll see.

pittsburg penguins sitting in 8th, is OK, and malkin is leading them strongly, and without crosby,
they are still holding their own, and could make a move before long.

boston bruins, in 6th place right now, don't look well at all, they have lost their strong work
ethic, and seem to be showing a bit of 'doubt' about themselves, they might not regain their
reputation again this season, depends on what happens at the trade deadline, maybe they will make
a move, and do some wheeling and dealing.

nashville is doing great, 5th spot, have taken a step upward this season, and have a confidence about themselves
that could carry them thru a couple of rounds of playoffs this year.

st. louis is in 4th spot, and look very strong, they are big and strong, and now coached by hitchcock,
so they will have good structure from here on in, but like nashville, don't score many goals, but they
also may make a move on trade deadline.

vancouver, is in number 3 spot, holding their own, have done lots of winning of late, even though they
are not showing quite the strength of last season, the twins most of the time are not the leaders we
all expect them to be, and I don't really know how all of this will end, they can't keep winning when
their game isn't sharp and at their best.

rangers are in 2nd place, and for me the surprise of the season, playing very consistent, work very very
hard, are very responsible at both ends, and their goalie is great, thought they might have stumbled
by now, but I certainly don't see any sign of that happening at all.

detroit, number 1, and tonight they just broke the NHL record for consecutive wins at 'home', at 21,
and they easily beat dallas, and look like they are ready for all comers, their road record is only
500, but if they keep winning at home like they are, no team will want to go there.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
I am very focused on seeing how all of these teams do from here on in, and I have no idea just how
the dust will settle at the end of the season.

I just heard today that 'rick nash', of columbus, has stated that if the management of that team want him
to put aside his 'no trade' clause in his contract, he is willing to go to another team, if he agrees
with the choice made for him, so I would imagine quite a few teams, as we speak are scrambling to
figure out how to make a deal to acquire him before Feb. 27.

1 Detroit CEN 80
2 NY Rangers ATL 79
3 Vancouver NW 76
4 St Louis CEN 75
5 Nashville CEN 72
6 Boston NE 70
7 Philadelphia ATL69
8 Pittsburgh ATL 69
9 San Jose PAC 68
10 New Jersey ATL 68
11 Ottawa NE 66
12 Florida SE 65
13 Chicago CEN 65
14 Los Angeles PAC65
15 Phoenix PAC 63
16 Toronto 62

 

[wulfie68]

I heard that Nash was willing to move too, but he's also the type of guy that it is going to be very costly to get. I just hope he doesn't end up with the Rangers (where careers die) or Montreal (where non-francophone careers die). I hear some murmurs out of Cannucknuckleheadville about a Luongo for Nash swap but I can't see that being enough for Nash, at this point: Mason is already a decent goaltender but the rest of the team in front of him has gaping holes).

I also laughed when I heard about the new Sports Illustrated NHL player poll, talking about the all star players that are the easiest to get off their game/intimidate. Kessel scares easy, NHL players poll claims

1. Phil Kessel
2. The Sedins
3 Alexander Semin
4. Patrick Kane
5. Ilya Kovalchuk

The top goaltenders to get rattled were Luongo and Mike Smith. This is all pretty subjective (and a lot of BS in some cases) but I thought it was interesting. Last month Dion Phaneuf was voted the "most over-rated" player in a similar poll... these guys sure don't like the Leafs

 

[Walter]

Looks like the Rangers and Red Wings are good for the final; both are hot and solid.

 

[TenPenny]

Last month Dion Phaneuf was voted the "most over-rated" player in a similar poll... these guys sure don't like the Leafs

'These guys' being the NHL players, so you have to think there's some validity to it.

I certainly haven't seen much from Phaneuf to account for his 'C' or his image.

 

[wulfie68]

'These guys' being the NHL players, so you have to think there's some validity to it.

True but it loses a little credibility in that the polls are anonymous thus there is no way for the info to really be verified. The anonymity really is a double edged sword in that without others knowing who said what, some guys may be willing to be more open but at the same time it could all be made up on some S.I. hockey beat writer's desk...

 

[talloola]

I heard that Nash was willing to move too, but he's also the type of guy that it is going to be very costly to get. I just hope he doesn't end up with the Rangers (where careers die) or Montreal (where non-francophone careers die). I hear some murmurs out of Cannucknuckleheadville about a Luongo for Nash swap but I can't see that being enough for Nash, at this point: Mason is already a decent goaltender but the rest of the team in front of him has gaping holes).

I also laughed when I heard about the new Sports Illustrated NHL player poll, talking about the all star players that are the easiest to get off their game/intimidate. Kessel scares easy, NHL players poll claims

1. Phil Kessel
2. The Sedins
3 Alexander Semin
4. Patrick Kane
5. Ilya Kovalchuk

The top goaltenders to get rattled were Luongo and Mike Smith. This is all pretty subjective (and a lot of BS in some cases) but I thought it was interesting. Last month Dion Phaneuf was voted the "most over-rated" player in a similar poll... these guys sure don't like the Leafs

yeah, that poll is dumb, and being anonymous makes it null and void, and it isn't accurate anyway.

I can speak for the sedins quite accurately, nothing intimidates them, and they are afraid of nothing.
If the article stated that the sedins aren't great skaters, aren't mean players, aren't big physical
tough players, I would agree, but mentally they are among the toughest in the NHL
Don't know about kessel, but he is a great goal scorer,a quick thinker on the ice, and a gamer, and I
would have him on my team any day.
Semin is lazy, I have noticed that.
Kane is just small, but very talented, so he has to play the game that many small
players have to play, so he doesn't get squished on every shift.
Kovalchuk is a very talented, fearless player, and physically tough, I saw him
fight 'once', and he was the victor quite quickly.
Polls like that are only looking for controversy, but they aren't really interested in being constructive
or positive, and they show they have very little knowledge of what they are talking about, and seems they
don't really care, they just want something to talk about.

I don't think any NHL player is scared or easily intimidated, just being in the
NHL proves that to me, or they never would have made it that far to begin with,
probably not even to major junior.

Looks like the Rangers and Red Wings are good for the final; both are hot and solid.

they will be tough competitors in the playoffs, but once those playoffs start, anything can
happen, and just because teams are at the top at the end of the season doesn't mean a lot, any of
them can rise to the top during playoffs, injuries can happen, a team can just get hot, and who
is matched up with whom also makes a difference.

last season canucks could have been out of the playoffs after the chicago series, it was just the
one save by luongo,(overtime), then the one goal by burrows that sent canucks thru to the next round, but
just change that save to a goal, and chicago would have won the series.

It is a fine line in playoffs.

And there is still about 25 games or so to go, and things can still change quite a bit.

eg. calgary is on the brink of being in the playoffs now, only 5 points behind chicago, so
one never knows, calgarys team was trash for a long time this season, but with quite a few
changes in personnel, they have now started playing very well, and any team meeting them will
have to play well to win.

chicago has sunk to a new low, BUT they can also turn it around over the next 20 or so games,
and rise to the top again.

It will be interesting to watch.

He doesn't state that the teams police themselves, talloola. He states that the players are left to police themselves as is evidenced by by the fact that there are still players in the NHL, call them what you like, who are the designated 'fighters' on the team and who are given the job of 'taking care' of certain opponents.

It may prevent players from having 'body guards' as such but you and I both know players whose only job is to cause as much trouble as they can and they get away with it time after time with barely a slap on the wrist. I am sure you could quickly name a few of them.

I agree, talloola. It is not the game left unprotected, rather it is the players. At this time, the penalties and punishments handed out by both referees, who are just as befuddled as the players, and the league are so unevenly distributed as to leave both parties in a quandary. As former referee Kerry Fraser states: “The officials are so confused, they don't know what is or isn't' a penalty. That's just the reality of it."

They are tallola but what about the reasons behind them. Why do players get concussions? Is there anything that can be done to prevent them from happening?

I completely agree, talloola.
There has been progress, talloola and I don’t advocate ‘dwelling’ on the past either. However, there are times that the past catches up with us and we are forced to look back as will happen this fall when the trial of Tod Bertuzzi begins.
Moore-Bertuzzi civil case has 2012 start date


There will always be fights in hockey just as fights happen in other sports. It is the way fights are dealt with that separates the NHL from other types of sports.

Don't blame you a bit for feeling that way.

It is the reasons behind the 'planned fights' that need to be addressed in my opinion.

We can only hope that they do just that.

And has happened when a player has sustained numerous head shots in fights over a number of years.

And some current medical studies would back that up.

That does not apply across the board talloola. Some former 'fighters' have spoken out about the anxiety and stress they have undergone prior to a fight and that their only release comes after the fight is over. Some of them have taken to alcohol and drugs in order to get through.

Again I would point out that fighting is not allowed in other sports and when it happens is dealt with severely so why should hockey be any different. Football and rugby are 'manly sports' with a lot of physical contact and pent up emotion. Yet let any player stoop so low as to punch another and they are met with an automatic game expulsion and the possibility of further suspension.
There are those within the game who also question the need for fighting. Not all of them are united in their enjoyment of the fight but you won't catch them showing anything but positive emotions on a nationally broadcast game.

Not completely.

True, but sometimes one goon is all it takes to knock out a star player.

As a matter of fact players like Matthieu Schneider who is currently with the NHLPA; Murray Costello, former player and past pres of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association; Keith Primeau who played 15 years in the league; David Branch – pres of the Canadian Hockey League; former 15-year Flyer Ian Laperriere; Alyn McCauley who played with the Leafs, Sharks, and Kings but was forced to retire at age 30 due to injuries; David Perron formerly of the Blues, and many others I could name, have all come forward to speak about changes needed in the NHL.


And the stats covering viewing audiences for Olympic hockey or IIHF hockey would back you up on that, talloola. Sure the game has its fanatics who insist that fighting etc be an integral part of the game but I believe the majority of fans do not feel that way at all. I believe the majority of fans would rather be treated to a fast paced, well-played game that showcased the true talents of the athletes involved.

Just as the former goon turned author is now doing.

Again, the same could be said of football which is not exactly for the faint of heart.

It is all of that talloola but under controlled circumstances such as those we see in Olympic and IIHF hockey the game is just as exciting and just a rough, fast, and dangerous but without the injuries seen in the NHL.


All true.

Again, all true.

Then they shouldn't be critical of the game should they.

And you would be right in doing so, talloola.
What I am specifically opposed to is the fact that current penalties and fines levied do not match the gravity of some of the incidences of extreme violence such as throwing a player head first into the boards with obvious intent to injure. Nor do they do much to discourage behavior such as slashing and tripping either of which has the potential to cause serious injury.
I do not believe the game of hockey to be violent. I do believe that some players are the very embodiment of violence and that the sooner the league is rid of every last one of them the better. Yet as I write that I believe, given the correct application of a clear and binding set of rules and regulations, the need for enforcer types would vanish. Until that happens, the punishment must start fitting the crime.

Improvements in the game will only come about when some of the dinosaurs that currently mask themselves as NHL owners get past the idea that blood and guts are a necessary part of hockey. As more owners like Mario Lemieux start to speak out against the current state of affairs in the league, the greater the chances are that players will get the protection they deserve and the game of hockey will remain a treasured part of our lives.

I just have to add, that when mat cooke was doing mean things to other players,several times, (mark sevard had to retire
because of concussion), I notice mario lemieux did nothing to him, or said nothing about him, as his owner, and he
only stopped playing later, when he was finally suspended after new rulings were introduced, but lemieux
did come out and complain about 'other' instances with 'other' teams.

A couple of the penguin players openly criticized cooke at the time.

 

[TenPenny]

yeah, that poll is dumb, and being anonymous makes it null and void, and it isn't accurate anyway.

I can speak for the sedins quite accurately, nothing intimidates them, and they are afraid of nothing.

Pretty much right on schedule, and exactly what I was expecting.

You can speak for the Sedins?
Wow. That explains everything - you're their official spokesperson.

 

[talloola]

Pretty much right on schedule, and exactly what I was expecting.

You can speak for the Sedins?
Wow. That explains everything - you're their official spokesperson.

I did not speak 'for' the sedin's, I spoke my opinion about them, as hockey players.

Can you speak sensibly about any hockey player without being sarcastic, or ignorant.

Just one will do, don't strain yourself.

 

[TenPenny]

I did not speak 'for' the sedin's, I spoke my opinion about them, as hockey players.

You said that you spoke 'for' the Sedins.
That's what you said, don't blame me for what YOU said.

'I don't agree with the results of the poll, so therefore it's wrong.'

 

[Mowich]

I just have to add, that when mat cooke was doing mean things to other players,several times, (mark sevard had to retire because of concussion), I notice mario lemieux did nothing to him, or said nothing about him, as his owner, and he only stopped playing later, when he was finally suspended after new rulings were introduced, but lemieux did come out and complain about 'other' instances with 'other' teams.

A couple of the penguin players openly criticized cooke at the time.

I agree that Mario should have done something about Cooke much earlier, talloola. For the blind-side hit on Marc Savard, Cooke was neither given a penalty nor was there any follow-up suspension - something that might have prevented him from going on to make the knee-to-knee hit on Ovechkin and the check from behind that sent Fedor Tyutin into the boards headfirst during the 2010/11 season. The fact that both hits did not result in serious injury was pure happenstance. Cooke didn't receive any penalty for the Ovechkin hit but he was suspended for 4 games after the Tyutin hit but that wasn't enough to get the message across as he later came from center ice during a game with the NY Rangers to deliver an elbow to the head of Ryan McDonagh. The latter hit happened shortly after the GM's and Bettman had met to discuss plans for addressing the problem of concussions. During that meeting, Mario suggested that fines be levied for teams that employed 'dangerous players' but it wasn't until the public outcry against Cooke's behavior that he finally stood by his earlier words and applauded the NHL after they suspended Cooke for the remaining 10 games of the regular 2010/11 season and the first round of play-offs. Since then, Mario has been outspoken about the need to address dangerous plays and players, and for that I heartily applaud him.

 

[talloola]

I agree that Mario should have done something about Cooke much earlier, talloola. For the blind-side hit on Marc Savard, Cooke was neither given a penalty nor was there any follow-up suspension - something that might have prevented him from going on to make the knee-to-knee hit on Ovechkin and the check from behind that sent Fedor Tyutin into the boards headfirst during the 2010/11 season. The fact that both hits did not result in serious injury was pure happenstance. Cooke didn't receive any penalty for the Ovechkin hit but he was suspended for 4 games after the Tyutin hit but that wasn't enough to get the message across as he later came from center ice during a game with the NY Rangers to deliver an elbow to the head of Ryan McDonagh. The latter hit happened shortly after the GM's and Bettman had met to discuss plans for addressing the problem of concussions. During that meeting, Mario suggested that fines be levied for teams that employed 'dangerous players' but it wasn't until the public outcry against Cooke's behavior that he finally stood by his earlier words and applauded the NHL after they suspended Cooke for the remaining 10 games of the regular 2010/11 season and the first round of play-offs. Since then, Mario has been outspoken about the need to address dangerous plays and players, and for that I heartily applaud him.

yes, I agree, all of that is very accurate, and so much has improved since then, and lots of work to
be done for the future as well, but I think it is going in the right direction.

You said that you spoke 'for' the Sedins.
That's what you said, don't blame me for what YOU said.

'I don't agree with the results of the poll, so therefore it's wrong.'

its called an opinion, my opinion is a result from watching the sedins and others for
many years.

i've yet to read something accurate and positive and constructive from any of your posts,
you seem to live to jump all over anything, like a grumpy snagglepuss, who has disobeyed their
parent 'again', and is taking it out on somone else.

life is good, I feel it, give it a try.