USA distancing itself from Canada

[pastafarian]

sanch, what ARE you babbling on about?

Who says I agree with anything else Thobani has said or written?

Go tilt at feminist windmills all you want, I have no knowledge of, and no interest in academic feminist theory. If you would read my posts, you'd know I don't see Canada as any more respectful of human rights than any other country.

Try reading what I write, not what you think I mean or what you want me to have said.

 

[Curiosity]

Pastafarian

The BBC reporter who broke the story, Greg Palast also noted discrepancies surrounding results and exits polls in Ohio and New Mexico during the 2004 election, which were also noted by a MSNBC reporter whose name I can't recall. More on that story here

The MSNBC "reporter" who you can't recall is....
Alexandra Pelosi - daughter of Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader in the House - one time producer of one political program for NBC. Hardly an unbiased, objective source.

 

[pastafarian]

No, actually it was a middle-aged man. I'll look it up.

 

[Curiosity]

Re: RE: USA distancing itself from Canada

No, actually it was a middle-aged man. I'll look it up.

Pasta

I did - I thought it was the guy from San Francisco too - 35 years old...looks like a young Peter Sellers. Then I scrolled a bit more and found the NBC link to Pelosi's daughter Alexandra....

Sorry - I thought you were covering it up....They are both on Google if the FBI hasn't shut them down yet lol....(they are being served subpoenas but that is off topic)....

 

[pastafarian]

In the meantime, there's lots of other analyses that confirm the observations that there were major discrepancies and they all favoured Bush, including districts in which Bush got more votes than there were registered voters. :lol:

Here's one:

In ten of the eleven consensus battleground states,5
the tallied margin differs from the predicted margin, and in every one, the shift favors Bush.

In this report, I have: (1) documented that, in general, exit poll data are sound, (2) demonstrated
that it is exceedingly unlikely that the deviations between exit poll predictions and vote
tallies in the three critical battleground states could have occurred strictly by chance or random
error, and (3) explained why explanations for the discrepancy thus far provided are inadequate.
The unexplained discrepancy leaves us with two broad categories of hypotheses: the exit poll
data are wrong (or misleading) in ways that have yet to be documented, or the count is off. The
most important investigations concern verification of the tallies and allegations of fraud on one
hand; and the exit poll data and methodology on the other. Particularly useful statistical analyses
would compare the “shift” in states, counties and precincts where safeguards are strong vs. those
where they are suspect, but such analyses require NEP’s raw data.

 

[Curiosity]

Pastafarian

OK thanks - I'll have a look see - I was concentrating on Pelosi only in my earlier search.

 

[pastafarian]

Wednesday's Child, I won't pull any punches when i think i'm right and i'll be quick to ridicule points of view I think are based on propaganda or ideology, but I'll play fair with my sources an evidence and i will admit when I'm wrong, even if I discover it. I'm more interested in what's true than being right, but you're gonna hvae to show me that I'm wrong.
Ther person i'm thinking of may just be a news reader, but I recall at the time he was remarkable because he was the only person affiliated with a mainstream news service who was making the claims.

 

[pastafarian]

The guy's name is Keith Olbermann.

 

[Curiosity]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0211/04/asb.00.html

Pastafarian

OK - here is one link - from CNN - and it is way down in the interview by Aaron Brown....I'll just quote from it out of the whole thing... Woops - the portion I linked to is listed below.

OK Keith Olbermann wrote that information? Not Pelosi? OK

 

[Curiosity]

Pastafarian This is from a CNN Show with Aaron Brown - in 2002.... It was about her documentary "Journey with George". I keep losing the link. I'll put it in when I get this paste done...

BROWN: Tell the truth -- you probably spent about as much time with the candidates as you can bear in 10 and 20 and 30-second long increments on TV. So if someone proposed to you that you spend pretty nearly every waking moment with a campaigning politician for, oh, let's say 18 months or so, what exactly would you say to that?

Alex Pelosi is the daughter of Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, a one- time producer for NBC news said, Oh boy, yeah, I would really like to do that. She came away with an extraordinary documentary that offers a compelling look at what campaigning is really like and what one campaigner, in this case, George W. Bush, is really like.

Miss Pelosi joins us in a moment but first a little bit of the film.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDRA PELOSI, PRODUCER, "JOURNEYS WITH GEORGE": Do you think that you've evolved as a candidate?

BUSH: Evolved as a candidate? PELOSI: I mean, how has your life changed in a year?

BUSH: I'm losing hair. My hair's more gray.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alex, you're losing hair as well.

PELOSI: Yeah, my hair's falling out because I became a vegetablearian.

BUSH: Then I suggest you start eating meat.

PELOSI: Tell us how you changed in the last year.

BUSH: Well, let's see, I started off as a cowboy. I'm now a statesman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: "Journey with George" is on HBO tomorrow. Miss Pelosi is with us tonight in New York. It's nice to see you.

Thank you.

PELOSI: No, thank you.
-----------------------------------------------------

There is another writer in San Francisco name of Alex Pelosi - a male.

 

[pastafarian]

OK Keith Olbermann wrote that information? Not Pelosi? OK

I don't know what K.O. wrote. I only saw a clip of him from election night discussing the exit poll discrepancies with a few people.
I find the Penn State paper convincing after a skim, but i.m not going to say "It's true" without reading it carefully. I've been bitten before and I hate admitting I'm wrong online :wink: .

I haven't really followed the 2004 story because since Gore lacked the balls to fight for his presidency in 2000 and Kerry again in 2004, why should I care if the US Dems are too feeble to contest their own elections?

Let the US democracy self-destruct. Nothing I can do about it. I only got into it to address the issue of whether or not a case could be made for Bush not deserving the 2000 presidency. I think it's pretty clear that such a case an be made and therefore Dr. Thobani's "opinion" is valid, whether or not it's correct.

I'm still amazed that the Dems rolled over so easily. No wonder the Republicans have been kicking their sorry butts.

 

[I think not]

Pastafarian

No disrespect but I think we are getting way off topic, If you want to debate how the US will self implode start another thread. I'm up for it.

In the meantime both WC and Sanch made valid points. The speaker blasted the US (Good for her), with Canadian tax payers money. Human beings only like to attach themselves to the bad news. Like it or not, which I tend to believe you like, Americans are becoming more aware of the anti-Americanism up North.

Whether that benefits the US and Canada, I have no idea, but I would tend to believe both countries will lose. Most Canadians are left wing, this is a fact. That would mean that the big bad neighbor to the South is inherently a society of automatons, because apparently only socialism is the "progressive" and "enlightened" political philosophy. Capitalism by contrast creates societies of greed and dichotomy.

It has never ceased to amaze me how everyone can decry the US system and yet we have managed to survive quite well for 230 years. We have skeletons in our closet like everybody else does. But we don't spoonfeed our people with anti-Canadian propaganda either. So, I personally think the issue lies with Canada, not with the US. I have read a few posts here that suggest to be "patient" for 3 more years and Bush will be gone. What a joke, anti-Americanism in Canada is chronic. Which alos helps Canadians "indetify" themselves. I have another idea, you claim the US will self-implode? I feel Canada is half way there already. I doubt if in 50 years Canada will even exist as it does today, but I think the US will still be around, for one vert basic reason, our society is transparent, something socialism or "fake-socialism" can't even hope for.

 

[Curiosity]

Pastafarian

All opinions are valid as is Sunera's. My bi*tch was the timing and place where she decided to let fly on the Canadian government dollar. She was taking down a lot of good will between the two nations who have historically been tied at the hip in many gestures of assistance and cooperation - I would not like to see that torn any more than it has been in the past six years.

Unless we learn to cooperate - our government elected officials won't lose - the general population will.

ITN wrote something perhaps on another thread about keeping the peace among the people in spite of our government leaders.

I think it is a fine idea. We aren't sheep and we can differ and debate and lock in on our favorites, as long as we (the people) stay within amicable range and assistance for each other.

 

[pastafarian]

Most Canadians are left wing, this is a fact

Most Americans are right wing, this is a fact.

That would mean that the big bad neighbor to the South is inherently a society of automatons, because apparently only socialism is the "progressive" and "enlightened" political philosophy. Capitalism by contrast creates societies of greed and dichotomy.

This doesn't follow from anything we've been discussing and is a topic for another thread. Again, you're trying to paint me as anti-capitalist and pro-socialist. They are partly economic systems but mostlyideologies, which means that they're both flawed. Each has insights that are useful and each makes assumptions that are false.

You'll never understand what i'm trying to say if you can only see things as "white hat" and "black hat", "either/or" real life is more complicated than this. Just because the US is not the "good guys", doesn't mean anyone else is the "good guys".

Where did I claim the US would implode? I didn't.

Where do people get the idea that if you're critical of US policy, you're anti-American? It's idiotic.

Stop whining about supposed Canadian Anti-Americanism and ask yourselves why the whole world is moving away from the US like they do from the big scary drunk guy at the party who wnats to fight everybody he thinks is looking at him funny.
Canada owes the US squat and vice-versa.

Countries interact because they have common interests not because their leaders kiss each others asses. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Why did the US support Saddam when he was gassing the Kurds? Why did they support Pinochet, Somoza and Suharto?

Why did Reagan sell guns to Iran after they killed over 250 Marines? Why did the US support the Taliban for years?

Because the citizens of all these countries gave impromptu speeches about the benevolence of Manifest Destiny?

Wake up, and learn some world history.

All opinions are valid as is Sunera's. My bi*tch was the timing and place where she decided to let fly on the Canadian government dollar. She was taking down a lot of good will between the two nations who have historically been tied at the hip in many gestures of assistance and cooperation - I would not like to see that torn any more than it has been in the past six years.

Fair enough. While I don't agree, it's as valid a response as mine. Hell, it may be correct. What I object to is the hysterical lying about how she said the US "deserved" 9/11.

 

[I think not]

Most Americans are right wing, this is a fact.

Wrong, most Americans believe socialism is a cesspool of elitists playing games of philosophy while ignoring the realities of the world. If you believe it to be right-wing, that's your choice.

This doesn't follow from anything we've been discussing and is a topic for another thread. Again, you're trying to paint me as anti-capitalist and pro-socialist. They are partly economic systems but mostlyideologies, which means that they're both flawed. Each has insights that are useful and each makes assumptions that are false.

I'm not trying to paint you anything, you do that very well on your own. I agree with your last statement however, each system has its flaws.

You'll never understand what i'm trying to say if you can only see things as "white hat" and "black hat", "either/or" real life is more complicated than this. Just because the US is not the "good guys", doesn't mean anyone else is the "good guys".

More stereotypes, you're now painting with an even wider brush.

Where did I claim the US would implode? I didn't.

Let the US democracy self-destruct. Nothing I can do about it.

That's close enough.

Where do people get the idea that if you're critical of US policy, you're anti-American? It's idiotic.

Nowhere, but when you mix lies under the guise of an "opinion" it has distorted into flagrant anti-Americanism. Furthermore, most people who criticise the US, can't help themselves but to go further and degrade it's people and it's society and conveniently ignoring "other" societies, always.

Stop whining about supposed Canadian Anti-Americanism and ask yourselves why the whole world is moving away from the US like they do from the big scary drunk guy at the party who wnats to fight everybody he thinks is looking at him funny.

Not so fast, there isn't "supposedly" anti-Americanism in Canada, it has existed since your country's birth. Practice what you preach and learn your OWN history. The countries that are "moving away" from the drunk guy are the countries that play the philosophical morality card, like Canada, and sit it the sidelines while history plays out, because they love to fund their social programs.

Canada owes the US squat and vice-versa.

The Peace Arch along our border says you don't know your history, once again.

Countries interact because they have common interests not because their leaders kiss each others asses. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

This is entirely correct, but it is also correct that our peoples have gone beyond "interests" as evidenced by the daily interactions, of friends and relatives across our borders.

Why did the US support Saddam when he was gassing the Kurds? Why did they support Pinochet, Somoza and Suharto?

Why did Reagan sell guns to Iran after they killed over 250 Marines? Why did the US support the Taliban for years?

Because the citizens of all these countries gave impromptu speeches about the benevolence of Manifest Destiny?

Wake up, and learn some world history.

I won't get dragged into another cold war debate with you, you should wake up and learn some world history, I am quite well versed in it, not the revisionists version, the actual history.

 

[sanch]

Well Pasta you did stake a position and in this sense you keep company with others who randomly throw out names, segments of history and events and hope they magically stick together. In your sense of history or current affairs you compare me to bin laden. You call that coherence? You might go over the litany you just spewed out and think out how it might be interpeted. You sound very angry.

On the topic of the thread I personally have not witnessed any real increase in anti-Americanism or anti-Canadianism on either side of the border. I spent 2 months in Canada in the last year in Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City and everyone was very friendly. I drive a car with US plates and so people do not know I’m Canadian. In conversations of course there is a very strong anti Bush slant. Canadians also have a weird tendency to lump all Americans together. Your president did this and your country did that. They even do this to me knowing that I'm Canadian.


In the US the people I know have a very positive image of Canada in as much as they know anything about Canada. I am though hyper alert to any critique on either side of the border. In the US both the left and right have their pet issues with Canada but I don’t know how much of these concerns trickle down to the population.

On the seal issue for example I don’t know any Canadians who are aware of the negative publicity the seal hunts generate. I may know the wrong Canadians. There are full page ads in the New York Times asking people to boycott Canada. The intent of the depiction is to make Canada, and by default Canadians, appear barbaric.


http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/12/62626.html

 

[tracy]

I work with a woman who is definitely leftist in her politics. She and I agree on a lot of politics and we are both animal lovers. She was shocked when I told her I didn't think there was anything wrong with th seal hunt, but it certainly hasn't negatively impacted her view of Canada. She still plans to move there.

 

[I think not]

A leftist moving to Canada? Bizarre! :lol:

Just kidding around, I don't see why the seal hunt would make anyone change their minds about Canada. It's not like the entire population goes out on some cultist killing spree.

 

[karra]

There's a rumor circulating here in Capital City that hoards of far left types intended to flock to the US should the Prime Minister in-waiting ascend - 'till they realized George is still in charge - properties along the 49th are selling like hot cakes. . . .

 

[sanch]

I know there was a lot of talk about people packing up to Canada after the last US election. They were going to live somewhere sane. I wonder what they think their next move is. Maybe Bolivia.