U.S. Suffers Major Iraq Attack, 22 Killed

[Rick van Opbergen]

All I am trying to say is why to we start feeling sad when people of an invading army die and we don't feel as sad when we see reports of 1000's of people dying. Are the US soldiers more humans than the other people.

To whom are you directing this? I agree with you that people don't seem to be as sad when Iraqis die compared to when Americans die. However, that does not have to do with the idea that people view Americans are "more human". When you turn on the TV, you will see the families of Americans who died in Iraq; when you watch Fahrenheit 911, you can "imagine" how people close to those killed Americans feel like. That picture does not exist when it comes to the killed Iraqis. They are a largely anonymous mass. There are no families who can tell about how they feel about their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers and children getting killed. In the Western world, people are not familiar with the families of the Iraqi civilians killed so far, and have no image of their suffering. Besides that, the number of killed Iraqis is so high, that they are slowly becoming a "number". As Stalin allegedly said "one dead person is a tradegy; 1 million dead persons are a statistic" (or somewhat in that order).

Where in hell did I say that? Both are people and do not deserve to die. Do not twist my words for your own agenda. Read carefully what I am writing then give your opinion. If you don't have an opinion, keep quiet.

Huh? When I read what Just the Facts said, he pointed at the media. And whether or not you agree with it, eventually it's his own opinion, which he is entitled to.

 

[moghrabi]

All I am trying to say is why to we start feeling sad when people of an invading army die and we don't feel as sad when we see reports of 1000's of people dying. Are the US soldiers more humans than the other people.

To whom are you directing this? I agree with you that people don't seem to be as sad when Iraqis die compared to when Americans die. However, that does not have to do with the idea that people view Americans are "more human". When you turn on the TV, you will see the families of Americans who died in Iraq; when you watch Fahrenheit 911, you can "imagine" how people close to those killed Americans feel like. That picture does not exist when it comes to the killed Iraqis. They are a largely anonymous mass. There are no families who can tell about how they feel about their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers and children getting killed. In the Western world, people are not familiar with the families of the Iraqi civilians killed so far, and have no image of their suffering. Besides that, the number of killed Iraqis is so high, that they are slowly becoming a "number". As Stalin allegedly said "one dead person is a tradegy; 1 million dead persons are a statistic" (or somewhat in that order).

Where in hell did I say that? Both are people and do not deserve to die. Do not twist my words for your own agenda. Read carefully what I am writing then give your opinion. If you don't have an opinion, keep quiet.

Huh? When I read what Just the Facts said, he pointed at the media. And whether or not you agree with it, eventually it's his own opinion, which he is entitled to.

Let me take the second point first. "Just the facts", in my opinion was not saying what the media was saying. He was rebutting me for feeling with the Iraqis. How can the media here feel with the Iraqis as he is saying? He is entitled to his opinion of course.

As for the first, I have a diferent feeling about this war. I see the faces of the families who lost a whole bunch of kids in one bomb. I see them on TV and I cry with them. It is so emotional you won't beleive it. Imagine losing your wife, mother, father, and 7 kids and you come out to bury ALL of them at the same time. can you imagine the pain, hatred, what is going through your mind at that time. This is called murder. Mass murder.

The Hell with Stalin. one or a million is a lose. The point is let the americans be exposed to the other side and see what their men and women in uniform are commiting in the name of democracy. Show them the truth.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

As for the first, I have a diferent feeling about this war. I see the faces of the families who lost a whole bunch of kids in one bomb. I see them on TV and I cry with them. It is so emotional you won't beleive it. Imagine losing your wife, mother, father, and 7 kids and you come out to bury ALL of them at the same time. can you imagine the pain, hatred, what is going through your mind at that time. This is called murder. Mass murder.

The Hell with Stalin. one or a million is a lose. The point is let the americans be exposed to the other side and see what their men and women in uniform are commiting in the name of democracy. Show them the truth.

Look, I'm not trying to give an EXCUSE here for Americans or other Westerners for not feeling as much with Iraqi families as some are feeling with American families. I'm trying to give an EXPLANATION. Look, I fully agree with you that all those Iraqis killed is not "collateral damage" (as some tend to say) but simple mass murder. Don't you think my heart freezes when I see an Iraqi woman running through the street in total shock after she just lost her family after a US bombardment?

My point is as what you said: show them the full story. That there is another side which is hurt, which is probably struck even harder (although not only Americans, but I guess also the rest of the world should realize that). My comment about Stalin however is that at one point, people just hear the news say "so far 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the invasion", and this number is so high that people are getting ... how to say it ... distanced from all of that. People don't look at the faces anymore, people are not getting familiar anymore with the personal tragedies, they just hear ... a number. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[moghrabi]

I totally understand you, Rick. I think we are thinking the same. I know what you meant about Stalin's statement. But how we as human beings ignore the screams of the other side. i think you are one of the few who are feeling with them, but trust me, there are a lot of people that do not count them as humans. Or if they know how to count, they call it collateral damage.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I just hate that word, "collateral damage". It's just a carte blanche to ignore international rulings ... and get away with it.

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: U.S. Suffers Major Iraq Attack, 22 Killed

I just hate that word, "collateral damage". It's just a carte blanche to ignore international rulings ... and get away with it.

Bingo.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Did I win the jackpot?

 

[moghrabi]

Yes. I'll send you to Iraq to be the special representative for the President of the Republic of Iraq Mr. Saddam Hussien. Or you can choose one of the smaller prizes such as being a puppet minister, or a puppet UN representative to a puppet regime put by illegal invasion..... more????

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I'll go for the best paycheck.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: U.S. Suffers Major Iraq Attack, 22 Killed

I wish I heard that from you or from any American when it was announced that 100,000 civilian died for no reason.

:?: :?: :?:

I hear it all the time. Other than the specific 100,000 civilians part. I get quite the opposite message you seem to be getting in the media at large. It seems Americans deserve to die, they asked for it, and all Iraqi's are civilians.

Where in hell did I say that? Both are people and do not deserve to die. Do not twist my words for your own agenda. Read carefully what I am writing then give your opinion. If you don't have an opinion, keep quiet.

Where in hell does it say I said YOU said that? 8)

 

[Just the Facts]

Let me take the second point first. "Just the facts", in my opinion was not saying what the media was saying. He was rebutting me for feeling with the Iraqis.

Please take your own advice and read carefully, Rick is exactly right.

I also presented no point of opinion, but merely a reflection of the weight of what I'm hearing in the media. Not to mention on this site. The overwhelming argument in the very vocal anti-war movement is STOP KILLING, not STOP GETTING KILLED.

Thus, my only point was that I AM hearing whet YOU WISH to be hearing:

I wish I heard that from you or from any American when it was announced that 100,000 civilian died for no reason.

Then you jump all over me and tell me to be quiet... <shrug>

 

[Just the Facts]

Let me take the second point first. "Just the facts", in my opinion was not saying what the media was saying. He was rebutting me for feeling with the Iraqis.

I have no idea where you got that impression.

 

[moghrabi]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. An apology is in order for you "Just the facts". I have no idea where I got that idea from either. I think I typed too fast before thinking.

Sorry again.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: U.S. Suffers Major Iraq Attack, 22 Killed

Sorry for the misunderstanding. An apology is in order for you "Just the facts". I have no idea where I got that idea from either. I think I typed too fast before thinking.

Sorry again.

I heard once a wise man say that 99% of all conflicts between people are based on a misunderstanding.

It's great to communicate! 8)

Peace.

 

[moghrabi]

You are very wise. We do not need to have a conflict, rather we need peace.

Thank you.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: U.S. Suffers Major Ir

I was wondering what the heck you guys were arguing about. Ya know, when that happens to somebody else, it's funny. When it happens to me, it's still funny, but I don't think so until later.

This thing with the bomb in the middle of the mess tent isn't funny though...for either side. I heard the US is doing door to door searches and arresting people for being Iraqi again. That pushes more Iraqis towards the insurgents, so the US does more searches and arrests more people.

Neither side seems capable of figuring it out.

 

[moghrabi]

really we were not arguing. I confess to misreading his post. It is my mistake.

As for the actual bomb in th middle of the mess tent, no it was not pretty. But my argument started when I said "Why do we always feel sorry when the GI die in this kind of way?" Why don't we, in the west feel the pain and suffering of thousands of Iraqis who lose their whole family in one shot?

You can read from the top, Rev, I got a bit out of whack and emotional. Poor Just the Facts, he got the end of the stick for no reason of his own.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

I'm not satisfied with the information given us concerning this most recent attack.

I believe that it would be in the U.S. interest to have it appear as a suicide bomber rather than a rocket attack.
A rocket attack would point out directly, just how vulnerable the American forces are.
They are sitting ducks!

I was listening to a reporter today while she explained what it was like getting a meal inside the compound which was bombed.
She said that she was in the tent 2 days earlier. She noticed that as soldiers came in to get their meals, they quickly grabbed it and left the tent. She claimed that she interpeted this as "soldiers being so dedicated that they tended to eat-on-the-run. That they were too busy to sit in the tent and enjoy a meal.
However; as she asked soldiers about it, they said that this was not the case. The soldiers had been taking rocket attacks for the past 2 weeks. That is why the soldiers took their food and ran.

I was also thinking about how hard it must be on the troops. Every night as they closed their eyes to sleep, they wonder if their tent will survive a random rocket attack. It must be very hard on the soldiers mental state while living under these conditions day after day. It would be like sitting in your house and waiting for the cops to arrive .... pretty tense!

The U.S. claims that 90% of new Iraqi-trained units quit or run away during a battle. That they are cowards or the like.
I was thinking that they take the U.S. money and march around parade squares with U.S. troops .... but refuse to shoot their own citizens. Just like in the Ukraine recently and where the army and police stayed aside.

I remember Northern Ireland. British soldiers went insane. They were surrounded by enemies and could not identify them.

Calm

 

[Reverend Blair]

really we were not arguing. I confess to misreading his post. It is my mistake.

Exactly Moghrabi. We've all done it. Misunderstandings are funny when they happen to somebody else.

We've seen this whole thing before, Calm. Vietnam, Ireland, Afghanistan when the USSR was there and now again, various wars in Africa and South America since the beginning of colonialism. Everybody always denies that it can happen again until it happens again, then they claim that this time is somehow different.