Turkey does not deserve the punishment the EU contemplates.

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Now Northstar..look into Frances history with its own seperatist groups, It is only recently it has allowed Breton to be spoken, and its still illegal for to speak Breton in a government institution (like a school), many Bretons are denied education in their own tongue.

Similar stories for Corsican and Basque.

Turkey is as bad as you say, but I think you're viewing the REST of the world through rose coloured classes. Its like sitting in the bottom of an outhouse exclaiming how vile a particular dropping is..forgetting that all that around you is the same damn crap and just as rank.
 

Zzarchov

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Thanks for the links. They confirm Kurds are still largely muslims, so the Turks oppressing them has to do with culture not religion, doesn't it?


The Kurds are a different Ethnic Group.

They are actually ALOT like the Basques, their country is currently split between three other countries where they are the minority in each.

Turkey (Where Turks are the dominant ethnic group)
Iraq (Where Arabs are the dominant ethnic group)
Iran (Where Persians are the dominant ethnic group)

Its not just culture, they also consider themselves different races.

Their Ideal plan is a new nation of Kurdistan cut out of all three countries. Neither Turkey, Iran, nor Iraq like this Idea.

It goes over as well as Spain and France treat Basque Separatists who try that, and is repressed just as harshly. Turkey actually treats the Kurds with the most restraint. Iraq tried to commit genocide.
 

jimmoyer

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Zzarchov and Northstar both present two accurate looks at Turkey's entrance into the EU.

Which is why I've been back and forth on that issue.

The EU and Turkey. Two hypocrites sizing up each other.

And yet I don't mean to imply moral parity either.

The EU (despite it member states' past and despite recent
French posing a false righteousness) is possibly more forward looking than Turkey sinking
further into religious intolerance.
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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thanks jimmoyer, but l am just warming up...It is religious differences that are at the root of the matter, as the Kurds are seen as infidels, the whole lot of them. Confused? So was l, but you have to look into the basis of the Islamic culture and the weave of Religion. Muhammad was part of the Quran and after his death the split between the followers of Muhammad begun. This is a very general statement, so l suggest you read wikipedia's version which is the least biased.
THIS begins to give you a glimmer of the hows and whys behind the fanatic feverous hatred both within the divided Muslim faith and how, even while they were instructed by Muhammad not to kill each other, they have.
So in Turkey, it is run by Fundementalist Islam and they consider anyone that is outside of this idealogy to be an 'infidel". The way in which they attacked the Kurds was exactly the way the Quran instructs them. Deception, Ambush, and the level of cruelty and violence was nothing short of an evil heindonous crime, but on top of this they have celebrated and enjoyed the cruelty, again avocated by the Quran.

The Kurds are a mixture of people that to this day have gone throught hell, and to this day have not had justice...

The injustices in Turkey are not ancient history, they are current. Turkey has been trying to get into the European Union for years, even while it has made backstabbing comments like, 'They ar enothing but a Christian Club"...and they continue to stand behind all the autrocities they commit and yet feel no remorse for. Why, because it was in the name of Allah and they deserve everything they desire.

Here are some realities-

1. Government Jobs, military service, or any Positions of any worth are kept for those people with the education that is government prescribed. This means they have to attend Muslim schools and study Islamic doctorines, and Islamic History ala the Quranin schools that are government approved to teach this. This is eight years of 'secular education' the law of 1997 prescribed that the only people who can get in have to have eight years in Muslim public schools, followed by Muslim high school, and has a system whereby non-Muslims get an automatic reduction of their entrance exam marks.
The fee to get into these schools is higher for any infidels.

2. The non-Muslim bible study and prayer meetings cannot just happen without a long complicated application procedure. Eight Christians were arrested for meeting in a home to discuss the bible and where arrested for 'INSULTING ISLAM"facing up to three years in a Turkish Jail. While being held they were humiliated, beaten and tortured. The imprisionment and the trial spanned three years from 2000 to 2002, when they were finally released for lack of evidence, but threatened not to re-form the prayer group.

then there is the odd journalist who dares to comment-


ISTANBUL, TURKEY (ANS) - Mar 7/05 - "'Christian missionaries infiltrating our country! Islam is slipping out of our hands!' These words represent the epitome of a very hot debate in Turkey in recent weeks," writes Mustafa Akyol, a writer and columnist living in Istanbul and the author of the forthcoming 'The Opium of the White Turks,' a critique of the Turkish secular elite.

Akyol says that "what made (these words) more surprising than ever was that they belonged not to a conservative Muslim, but to Rahsan Ecevit -- the influential wife of Bulent Ecevit, Turkey's former prime minister and longtime guru of left-wing, secularist ideology.


Isa Stanboli, 82, Served Churches In Beirut, Damascus, Jerusalem, and Cairo, Helped Plant Churches In Egypt and Syria (ANS) -Oct 2/03 - Isa Stanboli, 82, passed from this life on August 28. Isa was the son of a Muslim mullah in Kutahya, Turkey, and was raised as a strict Muslim. As a young man in the 1940's, he served as chief of police in Adiyaman, Turkey.

He said that during that time he ordered the beating and jailing of an itinerant Christian worker for passing out Christian literature in the city. ...he was gloriously converted through the preaching of an Armenian evangelist," said Hagerman.When his hometown in Turkey learned of his conversion, several men were sent to kill him, Hagerman said.

"But God miraculously delivered him by suddenly giving him supernatural strength as they were mercilessly beating him. Recognizing God's intervention, two of the same men later came to him to apologize."

-turkey, assist news service

The man who dared to post this was immediately arrested, the newspaper was closed down and assets siezed he was taken into jail and beaten and tortured.

here is yet another case-


ISTANBUL, TURKEY (ANS) -Jun 28/02- Following the news from Compass News Service that a Turkish Christian facing up to a year in jail for an alleged insult against Islam…Compass Direct said, "Timur, 33, was accused of making a slanderous comment against the Muslim prophet Mohammed in May 1999, when he was detained for 24 hours for distributing free New Testaments on a public street. Turkey's laws on freedom of religious expression allow such distribution activities, although police officials routinely arrest individuals on the basis of an alleged complaint from some 'anonymous citizen.'

"Timur was released without charge after being held overnight and beaten by local police, but six months later, the state prosecutor opened a slander case against him."

Assist news service

that's not all, these are just a few examples, this is an Muslim Government whose Quran teaches a hatred and cruel viciousness that is hard for our western minds to understand. Read it, verse after verse about how it is okay to inflict pain on any non-Muslim, and celebrate the use of violence, intolerance and robbery...
and you might want to read 'Tea with Terrorists'...then you will have a glimpse of why Turkey is not allowed into the European Union.
 

#juan

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Turkey should quit denying their history. I have no doubt that genocide occurred, but to put this whole thing in perspective, Germany is a member of the EU, so somehow they managed to get beyond their past. Maybe the problem is Turkey's current behavior.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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History tends to repeat itself, and the Historical facts are bone chilling in light of what we are seeing STILL happening today. Why? Because the deeply ingrained roots of hatred and violence that comes from the foundation of the Turkish culture- the Law of Islam. It feeds this inhuman and irrational continued attitude and hatred.
 

I think not

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Turkey should quit denying their history. I have no doubt that genocide occurred, but to put this whole thing in perspective, Germany is a member of the EU, so somehow they managed to get beyond their past. Maybe the problem is Turkey's current behavior.

No, I think the problem the EU is facing is whether or not to allow 70 million Muslims into Europe to move about freely. The rest is PC bull****.
 

Sassylassie

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No, I think the problem the EU is facing is whether or not to allow 70 million Muslims into Europe to move about freely. The rest is PC bull****.

Oh they are moving freely in fact in a couple of years most of the EU will be an Islamic states like Turkey, it still doesn't dismiss the dismal human rights record of this country. Hello the Pope cowed down and attented a Mosque instead of a Catholic Church to pander to the unappeased masses in Turkey. Why is it that when Muslims' torture and enslave Christians they refuse to explain or apologize because it's in the name of Allah but when the Muslim community is insulted (the fact that non-Muslims breathe air) they demand the "West" apologize and pander and appease them? Perhaps it's time we told them to sod off and ride off on the ass they rode in on. Turkey is going back to the dark ages where their male's knuckles drag on the ground and they don't talk they grunt, I'm not surprised thou no spine or back bone from the so called moderate Muslims in Turkey-gobble gobble. I hope the old adage "You sow what you reap" come back to haunt these vile pigs. If in doubt I could post numerous articles on the new Radicals in Turkey and it's not stuffing I assure you.
 

Zzarchov

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Well Sassylassie, one of my good friends, from Kosovo..would have a differing opinion from you about what happens when Christians feel insulted in Europe by a Muslim Minority.

I believe the word is genocide.

On the Other Side:

Turkey is not slipping "back into the Dark Ages", its far richer..more secular and liberal than some of the newest EU countries. Look it up. It also has a stronger rule of law.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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ZZ, once again making vague comments without any relivant facts...

Anyway, getting back to Turkey, I totally agree with you. I think everyone should understand a little known fact about Muhammad and how the nasty Islamists bow in a certain direction, and how the Pope, in an effort to appease the ridiculous charade of the whole-Mosque moment, bowed to whatever direction he was told to bow in.

The truth of Muhummad was that when he had his epilepic seizures and his 'revillations' he was so excited he went to Mecca and told the Jews and tried to have himself declared a prophet. His stories where hopeless in fact, and showed he was iliterate with no knowledge of the Torah, they were wild lacked any sense, so the Jews rejected him and told him to go away. Unable to gain credibility, he was left to attack the Jews and sieze their wealth. He then began his verses of hatred towards the Jewish people. When he captured the Synogogs and converted them into places of worship he decided to face the opposite direction than the Jewish faith, to show disrespect.

So the Pope facing the wrong way was pleasing to the IMAM because he thought it meant that the Pope was disrespectful. The cool thing about God is that you don't have to face a certain way, or hit your head on the floor, or lift your butt into the wind....

The Muslims of Turkey are still, to this day following a ancient cultism of violence and satanic verses [so-called by the author, Muhammad} and it isn't tolerant, or peaceful at all...it is about taking anything and everything in the name of Allah, for all [SATANIC VERSE} Woreshippers in the most violent cruel way possible...This is not working with civilization simply because it is against civilization, it is against every little social nuance of civilization, except of course those things that aid in the spread of anthrax, or that can spread other forms of chemical warfare, or that can build weapondry, or that can poision our air, water, or attack out communities...between blackberries and cell phones, satellite imagry and nucluer weapons the civilized response from turkey is lacking any sincere apologies and it is lacking any sincere responsibility, and it is lacking any suggestion of change.

Turkey is merely hoping that the world will forget all the nasty autrocities it has commited and celebrated and profited from.
 
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Zzarchov

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Actually Northstar..I did post the relevant facts. Go look them up yourself.

Yes, Turkey has done naughty things in defence of Nato..or did you forget the PKK Kurds were also communist and Europe made sure the reprisals were extra harsh (gotta keep the commies at bay)

I considered having a debate with you..but you're just intolerant.

If you want to bash religion fine, but you have odd criteria for showing it "Muhammed is a Satanist and God couldn't have spoken to him because he wasn't Jewish?" , I guess Saul of Tarsis (Aka, St.Paul) must have just been delusional then. Jesus wouldn't speak to a non-jew who doesn't know the Torah. So then any christian who isn't of Jewish ancestry can't be a real christian..Man does that clear up alot of misconceptions.

No wonder Europe and Christianity are so bloody, I mean..they even have a history worse than Islam. But now I see its because they aren't really christians.

And Thats explains this too "The cool thing about God is that you don't have to face a certain way, or hit your head on the floor, or lift your butt into the wind....", I guess that means christianity is out too, same with Judaism.

The big problem is this pope..who by your logic must also be Satanic.

"Europe (including European Turkey) is merely hoping that the world will forget all the nasty autrocities it has commited and celebrated and profited from."


OR..Newsflash... Maybe all of that is wrong, your just a bigot, and people can believe in whatever faith they want.

Turkey is not some Muslim society, it is secular, and vehemently so. Secularism is the basis of Turkish politics (much like France). It is European to the core, its part of Europe (unlike Cyprus, an EU member), its a big part of European history (its borders once ran alot deeper into Europe) and IT USES THE LATIN ALPHABET. If it were middle eastern, it wouldn't use the Roman Alphabet.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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The situation with Turkey is all about the Quran, since the government is ruled by Fundementalist Islamist. This gives us insight into the reasons why they have absolutely no remorse for anything they have done. The more Infidels they can murder, the more fulfilled Mohammad's Satanic Verses are.

The good people of Turkey, deserve to have a government that is not ruled by religion. Currently they do not. They instead have a government that criminalizes freedom of speech including freedom of religion.

I have posted examples of this above. BUT there is more, and the only way in which we can understand what motivates such sheering hatred that jsutifies baby killing and murder of thousands of people in the name of ALLAH is by looking at the root. The root of Turkey [AND THE arab middle-east} is in the foundations of Muhammad.

Muhammad's father was the keeper of the Rocks, where people would travel to a shrine, and hand over their rocks, and he would store them. The largest rock, thought to be a meteor, they called ALLAH, and he was the Moon God. Muhammad holed himself up in a cave for a while when he was in his forties and grieving the loss of his older wife and his uncle, when he came out he told people of his illustions and they decided they were from ALLAH.

Muhammad felt he had to gather followers so he went to Mecca and told the Jewish High Priests. Muhammad couldn't read the Torah, so his rendition of events was not accurate, and from distant memories of a cousin who was also receiting from memory. He wouldn't listen to reason of factual information and when his demands turned to threats and he asked to have wealth turned over to him due to his epilipsy and his 'visions' the Jews told him to leave.

The miffed Muhammad then wandered back to his nomatic people and began to rant and rave and commanded a slave take notes. Thus the self-titled one and only true Propecy was made 'SATANIC VERSES', {the prophecy lies in the title in that the verses are straight from SATAN, and Mu admits this}, this also fulfilled the prophecy of JESUS, when he told us of false propets and persecution.

To this day the followers of Muhammad have found that his verses are useful, and the Quran containing the SATANIC VERSES is followed by fundementalist Muslims.

Thus, the reason for the hatred, the level of violence and the actions of deception are all part of a good Muslim following the Quran and delivering INFIDELS [which include those muslims who are not following the satanic verses properly, Christians and Jews, and any other NON-MUSLIM faith] to Allah.

The political policy of Turkey is imeshed and ruled by Islamists, and this is why freedom of relious belief and freedom of speech is considered a crime, and that pilaging, murder and assault to non-Muslims is considered to be fine.

The shocking part is that there are people in the world who say that this is acceptable for some reason or another. Murder, robbery, and assault is NEVER acceptable.
 

Sassylassie

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Turkey a progressive society, nope. I guess they couldn't find a Christian to slaughter here's an article to show how backward this country is:


Turkish Airlines gets the hump

Some say camel meat tastes like 'coarse beef'

A job well done is worth celebrating, but Turkish Airlines say staff went too far when they sacrificed a camel.
To mark the last delivery of 100 aircraft, maintenance workers clubbed together to buy the beast - and then consume it.
The sacrifice took place at Istanbul international airport.
"They didn't ask permission," a spokeswoman for the airline told the BBC, adding that the boss of the offending staff had been suspended.
He will remain off work while the incident is investigated.
Camel is eaten in Turkey, while the sacrifice of animals - usually sheep - is performed during the Festival of Sacrifice, marking the prophet Ibrahim's willingness to sacrifice his son when God ordered him to.
"But it wasn't anything to do with that," said Belgin Alisan of Turkish Airlines, which was last week accepted into the Lufthansa-led Star Alliance.
"They went too far. We are really quite shocked." Top-selling daily Hurriyet said 700kg of camel meat had been distributed among the workers.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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How can anyone say Turkey is ruled by Islamic Fundamentalists? It isn't exactly the Taliban. I mean, we're talking about a country that actually banned women from wearing headscarves in universities, state schools and government offices.
 

Sassylassie

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Another article on this Progressive goberment. Sorry but a christian doesn't stand a chance at equality in this country.



Protestant missionaries face nine years for insult to Islam

Suna Erdem, Istanbul

When Hakan Tastan wanted to amend the religion on his Turkish identity card, his enthusiastic championing of Christianity exasperated the official barring his way. Eventually, the official gave up trying to oppose the controversial change. “Change this heathen’s religion and make him go away,” the devout Muslim told his clerks.
More than ten years later, the missionary zeal of Mr Tastan and his fellow Christian convert, Turan Topal, has led to much graver things than being called names.
NI_MPU('middle');They face up to nine years’ jail after going on trial last week for “insulting Turkishness” during their religious work, under the notorious Article 301 of the Turkish penal code. It is the same law that put Orhan Pamuk, the Nobel literature laureate, in the dock, and which the European Union wants amended.
The case against two members of the tiny Turkish Protestant community has attracted criticism from the EUand cast a shadow over Pope Benedict XVI’s visit this week.
Mr Topal and Mr Tastan, who are charged with illegally gathering information on people and “insulting Islam”, have faced public anger in Turkey, where a mistrust of Christians has been growing, fuelled by the Iraq war, the EU’s critical attitude, the Pope’s comments linking Islam with violence and the Danish cartoons row.
At last week’s hearing, a friend was punched and bystanders told them to leave the country if they didn’t like it.
“Where are we supposed to go? We are Turkish. I am a patriot. I hang out the Turkish flag on national days and have a picture of Atatürk (the founder of modern Turkey) in my office,” says Mr Tastan, 37.
“There is a lot of misunderstanding about us here,” said Mr Topal, 45. “They think that missionary work is part of a foreign-financed effort to split the country.”
Turkey is home to about 100,000 Christians, most from ethnic communities such as Greek Orthodox, Armenians and Syriac Christians, whose status is legally defined.
For Turkish Protestants, a community of about 4,000, that came into existence 20 years ago, there is no recognisable role. Mr Topal was one of the first converts 17 years ago. Mr Tastan, the son of an atheist and grandson of an Alevi Muslim, said that he read the Koran and then was given the Bible by a friend.
He converted during his mandatory military service. The pair and their lawyer, Haydar Polat, think that their indictment is part of a plot.
The three plaintiffs, young men aged 16, 17 and 23, contacted them through a friend saying that they wanted to find out more about Christianity. After two meetings, charges were filed.
The two missionaries were accused of calling Islam a backward religion and claiming that Turks would never become civilised unless they converted. They were also accused of trying to sell women and of possessing guns.
“I don’t mind going on trial for my religion. We expected to be accused and imprisoned for that — the Bible says so,” Mr Topal said, adding that Saint Paul was stoned for preaching in the Roman city of Ephesus, where the Pope held a Mass on Wednesday. “But some of those accusations are so revolting it’s upsetting — it just shows the mentality behind the case. They have this idea that we are rich and get a lot of money from abroad,” Among the accusing lawyers is Kemal Kerincsiz, an ultra- nationalist campaigner behind many of the high-profile 301 trials that have embarrassed the Turkish Government. Mr Topal and Mr Tastan have forgiven their accusers. “We have a woman in our group who puts up with so much from her husband who is a Muslim. But even she has to love him because the Bible says so,” Mr Tastan says.
 

jimmoyer

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This Turkey is like a Rohrshack inkblot test.

What do you see ?

Both sides of this issue emphasize a side of the two truths about Turkey.

Perhaps both sides are equally right about Turkey ???

Both literally and metaphorically this country straddles two continents, many cultures,
many contradictory tendencies, and a history with all of the regions surrounding it.

This may not be talking Turkey .....

But this thread is interesting...
 

Andem

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Mar 24, 2002
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The simple fact of the matter is that we don't want Turkey to join and most of us never have. There will never be an unanimous agreement between the member states to allow them to join.. Is it wrong for the EU to push the country into the 21st century and encourage them to embrace human rights? I don't think so.
 

Zzarchov

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Wow Sassylassie, Im surprised you'd be so blatantly anti-Muslim.

If a bunch of blue collar christians have a pig roast after a long ardous job well done no one says anything. But Muslims (since they don't eat pork) have a Camel BBQ and all of a sudden its a "sacrifice", they state on BBC its no any kind of religious observance, so why is it a "Sacrifice" and not a BBQ like it would be here?


Are we really that horribley Islamophobic?




AND THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT AS ISLAMIC FUNDEMENTALISTS?? ARE YOU SERIOUS??

You want to make a comment about Turkish governments being unready fine...but how about because its militantly SECULAR and the military has the right (and duty) to dispose of any government found to be violating the countries strict tradition of secularism.

I mean, seriously.. If you want to rant about something how about that a Duly elected government has been told to keep in line by the military because it has a religious leaning?

No one is telling Germany to leave the EU because it has Christian Democrats in power at times.


GOD , the amount of sheer idiocy and bigotry bothers me. "They are muslims, so they must hate all infidels, be barely intelligent, violent and not have any thoughts or desires beyond the Quaran".

They are just regular people who go to a different church on sunday and apologize for breaking slightly different rules in a dusty book.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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but how about because its militantly SECULAR and the military has the right (and duty) to dispose of any government found to be violating the countries strict tradition of secularism.

Militantly secular nations don't make changing religion a capital offense.

GOD , the amount of sheer idiocy and bigotry bothers me. "They are muslims, so they must hate all infidels, be barely intelligent, violent and not have any thoughts or desires beyond the Quaran".

The "poor poor pitiful us, we're just like you, why are you mean to us?" card just doesn't play anymore.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q="persecution+of+christians+in+turkey&btnG=Search


Edited for clarity