Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

Ocean Breeze

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from times online...a sign in page

Bush set to pull out 60,000 troops
By Tim Reid
Growing political and public aversion to the war in Iraq is forcing the President’s hand



PRESIDENT BUSH is planning a major pullout of US troops from Iraq amid rising opposition to the war on Capitol Hill and across America.
After a fortnight in which the political debate has rapidly moved from how to fight the war to how best to get out of Iraq, the White House is looking at reducing troop levels by at least 60,000 next year.



Confirming the worst fears of the war’s conservative supporters, who argue that more troops are needed to defeat the insurgency, senior military officials made clear yesterday that the Bush Administration’s goal is to cut troop levels from 160,000 to below 100,000 by the end of 2006.

Condoleezza Rice, the Secretary of State, far from denying the withdrawal plan first reported in The Washington Post, said that a gradual pullout of troops could begin “fairly soon”, and that the number of coalition troops is “clearly going to come down”.

Dr Rice told Fox News that the US will not need to maintain its present troop levels in Iraq for “very much longer”, because Iraqi security forces are “stepping up”. She added: “I think that’s how the President will want to look at this.”

The talk of withdrawal comes after a profound and swift change in attitude about Iraq in Congress. The issue, festering just below the surface for months, has exploded in Washington and is resonating loudly throughout America. In the past fortnight the war has eclipsed every other subject and is accelerating Mr Bush’s slide in the polls.

For the first time senior Republicans are demanding an exit strategy, and with nearly two thirds of Americans now believing that the invasion was a mistake, the political debate is focused on how to end US involvement.

The mood swing began after the US death toll in Iraq passed 2,000 last month, days before the indictment of Lewis Libby, Vice-President Cheney’s former chief-of-staff, for his role in the CIA-leak scandal.

Democrats exploited Mr Libby’s indictment to broaden the debate about how the White House made the case for war, accusing the Administration of manipulating prewar intelligence. Those claims triggered fierce rebuttals from Mr Bush and Mr Cheney. They alleged that Democrats, many of whom voted for the war, saw the same intelligence as the White House. Mr Cheney called the accusations “revisionism of the most corrupt and shameless variety”.

But polls suggest the Democrat claims had some success. For the first time, a majority of Americans believe that Mr Bush is dishonest. Only 29 per cent believe that Mr Cheney is honest. The President’s approval rating is 36 per cent.

With debate about how the White House led the country into war raging, the Republican-controlled Senate backed a resolution last week — by 79 to 19 — that a phased redeployment of US forces from Iraq should begin next year.

The sponsors of that proposal were John Warner, the powerful Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Bill Frist, the Republican Senate leader.

They denied that the move was to distance Republicans from an increasingly unpopular war before next year’s mid-term elections. But John McCain, one of the few Republicans advocating a troop increase, said of his party: “They’re nervous. They see the polls.”

Bill Clinton, the former President, then appeared to disavow his support for the war, declaring it to have been a “big mistake”.

The issue moved centre stage on Friday after John Murtha, a Democrat congressman and a decorated Vietnam veteran who voted for the war, called for a total withdrawal of US troops. That call provoked an ugly and at times hysterical debate in the House of Representatives on Friday night. In a moment of vaudevillian theatrics, one Democrat crossed the floor with his fists raised.

Although Mr Murtha’s proposal for an immediate withdrawal was defeated 403 to 3, Republican attacks on the former Marine’s patriotism backfired. Talk about withdrawal, recently at the fringes of debate, now dominates the agenda. In the past 48 hours several Democrats with their eyes on the 2008 presidential race have talked about a phased pullout.

Fred Barnes, a commentator on the conservative Weekly Standard, said: “These events are ominous . . . they suggest that troop removal has superseded victory as the primary American concern.”

Frank Luntz, a Republican pollster, said: “Americans are demanding a light at the end of the tunnel. Congress is responding to the question: when will it be over?”


face and butt saving tactic??? and they continue to have no regard for the nation /people they invaded and destroyed. :evil:
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

Canucklehead said:
Pulling out is never the answer.... just ask any healthcare professional :p
:lol: :lol:

unless it is "pulling out that scalpel " that was forgotten in someone's belly.... :wink:
 

Canucklehead

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Apr 6, 2005
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Welp, the U.S. has screwed Iraq and should, like a runaway father, be forced to make reperations until their 'baby' is able to care for itself... and that doesn't mean hovering with a shotgun in case anyone gets too close.
As much as I despise Bushco, I have to give them credit for never denouncing thier decisions, flawed or not. The Democrats are falling over themselves to disavow their decision to back the war in the first place... which is good in a way but exposes them as the unprincipled vote-whores they really are. Damn those peoples down South need a third alternative!!
 

Ocean Breeze

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The Democrats are falling over themselves to disavow their decision to back the war in the first place... which is good in a way but exposes them as the unprincipled vote-whores they really are

IMHO........everyone in politics is a "vote whore"...... :wink:

I would rather those that made a mistake ADMIT they made a mistake and then outline a plan as to how they plan to CORRECT it.........instead of "staying" the course like a blind and stubborn idiot. It is time for a lot more INTEGRETY ...

Those that are "disavowing" might just be sincere :roll: in the fact they have seen the light and changed their minds.... ALBEIT the fact it is too fecking late and too much death and destruction has occurred.

agree, having a VIABLE third party might make a world of difference and reduce this polarization.
 

Canucklehead

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I agree there is a slight chance that the Dems have seen the light but it's surprising that they too wouldn't want the U.S. to live up to their responsibility in Iraq after completely devastating the country. They yip n yap about U.S. image abroad blah blah blah yet they conveniently overlook the obvious that turning tail and running while a civil war breaks out isn't going to help their global position in the least.

Georgie should admit his mistakes but we both know that will happen about the same time hell freezes over. :(
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

Canucklehead said:
I agree there is a slight chance that the Dems have seen the light but it's surprising that they too wouldn't want the U.S. to live up to their responsibility in Iraq after completely devastating the country. They yip n yap about U.S. image abroad blah blah blah yet they conveniently overlook the obvious that turning tail and running while a civil war breaks out isn't going to help their global position in the least.

Georgie should admit his mistakes but we both know that will happen about the same time hell freezes over. :(

tell ya what I think.......and it might not be fully accurate...

I think both parties realize they have a humongous mess on their hands. They also see this mess from different perspectives....given the posture they come from. I also think that both parties are now acting out of EMOTION.....and not logic.......(reactive as opposed to proactive ) which means that they are opting. considering extreme solutions......or staged solutions to this mess. That would suggest strongly that they have lost "control" of the situation and are flying blind so to speak.

the other big problem is that with so much media control......we really have NO idea what shape Iraq is in.......(or how bad .......) We keep getting the US version....which will put a positive spin on it if they have to lie. Yet other world sources indicate it is very bad indeed.

Could care less about the US image......as it has been shot to hell some time ago and anyone with two brain cells knows that. The repuation went along with it. What matters now .....is the BEST option for the Iraqi people and THEY have to have a say in it.....and be listened to. They know their culture best, they know their problems best and their needs best. The US had better pullout its checkbook and start filling in some big numbers so the reconstruction can continue by the Iraqis as it is their nation .....and the US having broken it.....must now pay for it. These are jobs for the Iraqis and under Iraqi supervision. Get halliburton and such OUT of Iraq. as they are nothing but vampires. of the worst kind.

(just some random thoughts)

It is IRAQ that is the victim here. A victim of US atrocities.
 

Ocean Breeze

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November 26, 2005

The US Air Force’s senior officer, Gen. John Jumper, stated US warplanes would remain in Iraq to fight resistance forces and protect the American-installed regime "more or less indefinitely."

Gen. Jumper let the cat out of the bag. While President George Bush hints at eventual troop withdrawals, the Pentagon is busy building four major, permanent air bases in Iraq that will require heavy infantry protection.

Jumper’s revelation confirms what this column has long said: the Pentagon plans to copy Imperial Britain’s method of ruling oil-rich Iraq. In the 1920’s, the British cobbled together Iraq from three disparate Ottoman provinces to control newly-found oil fields in Kurdistan and along the Iranian border. The Sunni heartland in the middle was included to link these two oil regions.

London installed a puppet king and built an army of sepoy (native) troops to keep order and put down minor uprisings. A powerful British RAF contingent, based at Habbibanyah, was tasked with bombing serious revolts and rebellious tribes. In the 1920’s, government minister Winston Churchill authorized use of poisonous mustard gas against Kurdish tribesmen in Iraq and Pushtuns in Afghanistan (today’s Taliban). The RAF crushed all revolts against British colonial rule.

This is exactly what Jumper has in mind. Mobile US ground intervention forces will remain at the four major "Ft. Apache" bases guarding Iraq’s major oil fields. These bases will be "ceded" to the US by a compliant Iraqi regime.

The supreme weapon of modern warfare, the US Air Force, will police the Pax American with its precision-guided munitions and armed drones.

The USAF has developed an extremely effective new technique of wide area control. Small numbers of strike aircraft are kept in the air around the clock. When US ground forces come under attack or foes are sighted, these aircraft are vectored to the site in minutes and deliver precision-guided bombs on enemy forces. The effectiveness of this tactic has led Iraqi resistance fighters to favor roadside bombs over ambushes against US convoys.

The USAF uses the same combat air patrol tactic in Afghanistan, with even more success. In fact, this technique works well anywhere with fairly open terrain. The US is developing three major air bases in Pakistan, and others across Central Asia, to support its plans to dominate the strategic region’s vast oil and gas reserves.

While the USAF is settling into West Asia, the mess in Iraq continues to worsen. Last week’s so-called "constitutional deal" was the long-predicted, US-crafted pact between Shia and Kurd giving them Iraq’s oil and virtual independence. The proposed constitution actually assures American big business access to Iraq’s oil riches and markets.

The furious but powerless Sunni were left in the lurch. Sunnis will at least have the chance to vote on it in a 15 September referendum, but many fear it will be rigged.

The US reportedly offered the 15 Sunni convention delegates $5 million each to vote for the constitution – but was turned down. No mention was made that a US "guided" constitution for Iraq clearly violates the Geneva Conventions.

Chinese Taoists say you become what you hate. In a zesty irony, the US now finds itself in a similar position as demonized Saddam Hussein. Saddam had to use his Sunni-dominated army to hold Iraq together by fighting Kurdish and Shia rebels. His brutal police jailed tens of thousands and routinely used torture.

Today, Iraq’s new ruler, the US, is battling Sunni insurgents, ("al-Qaida terrorists," in the latest Pentagon double-speak), rebuilding Saddam’s dreaded secret police, holding 15,000 prisoners and torturing captives, as the Abu Ghraib outrage showed. Much of the Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama National Guard were in Iraq this week instead of at home.

Meanwhile, the Kurds are de facto independent, the Shia are playing footsie with Iran, and large parts of Iraq resembles the storm-ravaged US Gulf Coast – or vice versa.

hmmm.. now why is this not surprising???
 

jimmoyer

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It's not only NOT surprising, it isn't going to happen.

No matter what we try to do, manifest destiny lies in Iraq controlling its oil and making money off it by doing business with the west.

Saudis own the oil, don't they ?

Same will be with Iraq.

And while you see the owners of this oil not spread the wealth to their native countrymen, it will be the same as the Indians in America owning casinos who do not spread the wealth with their own brother.

The future of this matter will defy all ideologues.
 

Reverend Blair

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Pull out? Doesn't sound manly to me.

The US seems to build foreign policy on 1950's machsimo, Jimmy. F*ck, if you guys would learn to say, "I'll come on your tits," it would move all the way up to the 19fucking70s.

That's really what most of this about too, isn't it? Who has the bigger dick. I'll settle it right now...I'm willing to drop my pants in public and I bet Georgie's is smaller. All he has to do is show up. If he thinks he's man enough.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

jimmoyer said:
It's not only NOT surprising, it isn't going to happen.

No matter what we try to do, manifest destiny lies in Iraq controlling its oil and making money off it by doing business with the west.

Saudis own the oil, don't they ?

Same will be with Iraq.

And while you see the owners of this oil not spread the wealth to their native countrymen, it will be the same as the Indians in America owning casinos who do not spread the wealth with their own brother.

The future of this matter will defy all ideologues.

Have you assigned Iraq a US zip code yet??? Better get with the program. After all, you didn't kill all those people for nuthin' now did ya??? There HAS to be somethin' in it for ya........as isn't that the basic formula of US operations??? And it can't be just victims to practice your torture techniques on for the future torturers.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

jimmoyer said:
Zip code ?

666.

and that is the code for those poor people you claim to be "freeing" into some kind of perverse US style democracy??? Bet they will be glad to hear of your benevolence.
 

jimmoyer

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Nah, I just thought I'd follow your question with the zip code of hell, having grown used to your point of view.

I'm reminded of a story by my friend Robt Macomber, a story writer who travelled on a tanker captained by a German of 30 years experience with a Russian and Filipino crew. The ship left Columbia and was soon attacked by pirates at night. The grappling hooks hit, the pirates climb aboard. The Captain who had a very strong anti-American bias told Macomber and the others to hide back in the captain's headquarters. Macomber wondered why the Captain did nothing to prevent the grappling hooks from landing, or even to fire warning shots. He says to the captain, "Why can't you just plink at them?"

The captain has no time for this and looking to the security of his crew moves with his task.

After the event was over and major boxes of cargo were hauled off by the pirates, the German Captain comes to Macomber and asks, "Was ist das PLINK ?"

Macomber, tired of the usual prejudiced attitude, abandoned his attempts at changing the Captain's mind, and said," Well in America, when we shoot at something for the fun of it, we say we just plink at our target."

This of course reconfirmed the Captain's standard view of Americans.

http://www.robertmacomber.com
 

#juan

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Bush will say they'll pull out just to quiet the opposition but it won't happen. They will stay unless Bush is impeached.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Troop Pullout?? -Iraq

jimmoyer said:
We're in Iraq and a hard place.

We stay, we got problems.

We go, they got more problems.

yep........and if we could only turn back the hands of time and PREVENT the Stupidity of bush and HIS obsession with invading Iraq. He is the author of his own misfortune and has no one to "blame" but himself. ( but that won't stop him from trying.)

We are seeing the consequences of one fateful decision of one arrogant power hungry fanatic. .........and the ripple effect continues..

Wonder if in the years to come.........the world will ask....."why didn't we DO something more emphatic about preventing this bush insanity???

but one can only hope the despair that the Iraqis live in will eventually change into a more constructive course of THEIR choosing. By then , maybe their country will have been raped of all its resources.........so the US can leave , leaving its litter /garbage strewn all around ..............like they do every where they go. ( think bush visit to Buckingham palace. Garbage , trashing of plants in the gardens etc........and not one care in the world)