Too late to rescue U.S. economy?

[#juan]

I am not an expert in economics by any stretch of the imagination. Simply put you cannot spend your way out of an economic problem that is the result of spending your way into that same problem in the first place. Credit misuse is part of the problem, negative savings is another part, unemploymeant is another, unjust profit is important, poor distribution distribution of profit is very important, but by far the largest part is war and the offshoreing of industrial capacity. If an economy does not have domestic industry it cannot use that industry for recovery, if the wages are not earned they cannot be spent, and therefore cannot reinvigorate an economy. There is no move to address any of these problems, there is only a move to consolodate wealth and power with the ultimate goal of world domination. That is the declared direction and the verifiable course of a twenty year old military plan now in place. The economic crisis has been manufactured as has the terrorist enemy both are intimately tied to western imperialism and open warfare on the rest of the world not identified as western. It's as simple as that. IMO

Very well said Db. My opinion is that if they get out of the stupid wars, they should be able to turn things around. There is enough wealth in the American economy even with the foolish spending that has gone on to get it back on track. There are enough countries willing to sell oil to the U.S. to keep them going for the next fifty years anyway albeit at a climbing price. One thing they have to stop is the offshoring of jobs that only helps the corporate sector.

 

[Avro]

Very well said Db. My opinion is that if they get out of the stupid wars, they should be able to turn things around. There is enough wealth in the American economy even with the foolish spending that has gone on to get it back on track. There are enough countries willing to sell oil to the U.S. to keep them going for the next fifty years anyway albeit at a climbing price. One thing they have to stop is the offshoring of jobs that only helps the corporate sector.

Actually off shoring jobs helps developing countries and many jobs have been replaced by the service sector. Just look at our employment rate, when everyone on the left in Canada said free trade would kill us in that area and it has done no such thing. Working on the line at GM is no longer at option for work, people are getting paid for what they know and do in trade positions. In other words get off your asses and get training or an post secondary education.

The debt from the war is only large because the American public has never had to suffer for the wars over seas. If they had to suffer just a little the troops would have been home a long time ago.

 

[jimshort19]

Free markets are self-correcting. Corrections are not holidays.

 

[darkbeaver]

Free markets are self-correcting. Corrections are not holidays.

"Free markets", the term itself is moronic, if in fact there were any substance to your statement you could perhaps explain then Bushs bailout by way of cash infusion of public money announced just yesterday in addition to the infusions of the past summer.
So the idea of a free market is in of itself a stupid impossible concept, never seen in reality since the terms invention. You will do us the service of proper rebutal please.
Todays market is not free of infusions of money through the public purse via the government, exactly the mechanism free marketers have derided for decades as interfereing and damageing.
Socialism is perfectly acceptable as long as it serves only the institutions of the rich

 

[jimshort19]

Fortunately the markets will soon reach new highs. Unfortunately, today the nation's economies sputter, though they do not stumble. The wealthy are hardest hit. They will go back to work tomorrow, that much wiser, and create more jobs for workers. They will never stop venturing what they have, will be better stewards of fortunes that they cannot, woud not, consume.

On the other hand we have Dark Beaver, who did a dead cat bounce in 1975 and is never coming back.

 

[darkbeaver]

Actually off shoring jobs helps developing countries and many jobs have been replaced by the service sector. Just look at our employment rate, when everyone on the left in Canada said free trade would kill us in that area and it has done no such thing. Working on the line at GM is no longer at option for work, people are getting paid for what they know and do in trade positions. In other words get off your asses and get training or an post secondary education.

The debt from the war is only large because the American public has never had to suffer for the wars over seas. If they had to suffer just a little the troops would have been home a long time ago.

Off shoreing helps few in the recipiant countries where labour laws are virtually nonexistant, and wages are kept at subsistance levels. Offshoring concentrates wealth in the third world at the expence of those countries workers. Why would you think that moving jobs from the first to the third world was a net gain for either work force when it is demonstratably not. The debt for wars is large because of the burgeoning size of the western military and has nothing to do with western suffering or lack of it. You maintain that service sector jobs have replaced manufactureing jobs lost to globalization, this also is demonstratably incorrect, lost earnings because of globalization and free trade have not been recovered since the mid eightys. You can retrain all you want the jobs continue to migrate steadily to the zones where capital can realize enhanced profit. The srevice sector was sold to the public as a replacement for manufacturing jobs, something that was impossible from the beginning and continues to be, the size of the American debt proves that, personal and public credit has been stretched to the limit to maintain the illusion of prosperity, the power of that illusion can plainly be seen in your poor understanding of globalization

 

[darkbeaver]

www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/north_american_union/the_north_american_union_and_the_larger_plan_2007121884/

More recently, David Dodge, Governor of the Bank of Canada, in may 2007 said that a common currency with the U.S. is definitely possibel. What will happen is the power elite will cause the dollar to be devalued to the point where Americans will reluctantly accept the amero.


'The amero will be presented to the American public as the administrations solution for dollar recovery.' Bob Chapman "International Forcaster" newsletter Dec 2006.

 

[darkbeaver]

Very well said Db. My opinion is that if they get out of the stupid wars, they should be able to turn things around. There is enough wealth in the American economy even with the foolish spending that has gone on to get it back on track. There are enough countries willing to sell oil to the U.S. to keep them going for the next fifty years anyway albeit at a climbing price. One thing they have to stop is the offshoring of jobs that only helps the corporate sector.

Here's the fly in the ointment Juan the American economy has been and is based on conquest, in that respect it is no different than any empire of the past. The British Empire depended on two pillars military supremacy and economic monopoly which are mutually supportive. There is never any diviation from that basic formula of imperialism, that is exactly the reason imperialism is considered destructive and evil. The United States cannot abandone it's militarism (the foundation of empire) and survive in any recognizable approximation of what it is today, hence the necessity for gobal war, it's only interest is in the survival of it's ruling class and that of it's vassel states which it still has use for, but all of them including Canada will be exhausted and abandoned in the service of American power. That's just the way imperialism works, it's simplicity in itself and a matter of record in historical truth. So abandone any thoughts of deviation from that course it's just not possible. respectfully DB

 

[Toro]

Of course a common currency is possible. Twenty years from now, maybe.

But if it is going to happen, it will happen with full debate and part of the democratic process.

Changing a currency is extremely complex and complicated. It can't be done in the stealth of night with nobody else knowing except for some clever Internet posters.

 

[darkbeaver]

Fortunately the markets will soon reach new highs. Unfortunately, today the nation's economies sputter, though they do not stumble. The wealthy are hardest hit. They will go back to work tomorrow, that much wiser, and create more jobs for workers. They will never stop venturing what they have, will be better stewards of fortunes that they cannot, woud not, consume.

On the other hand we have Dark Beaver, who did a dead cat bounce in 1975 and is never coming back.

I can tolerate your appaling lack of contribution by way of sound argument for the simple reason every post you make reenforces my own position. That's the camp followers function Jim, while you paint your face and show us a bit of leg that's not enough for you to attain any signifigance, but it does display, amply, the abject poverty of your empty words and the void position of free market capitalism. The hard hit on the wealthy will one day happen, don't count on pieces of silver to save your masters for ever Jim, the meek always win in the end. That's why we're still here sweety.

 

[Walter]

Yep, cons screw it up then Libs come in and fix it.

Just like Turdoh.

 

[darkbeaver]

Of course a common currency is possible. Twenty years from now, maybe.

But if it is going to happen, it will happen with full debate and part of the democratic process.

Changing a currency is extremely complex and complicated. It can't be done in the stealth of night with nobody else knowing except for some clever Internet posters.

Full and democratic public debate has been relegated to the movies and softsoap popular novels for decades. The programe has in all likelyhood been worked out by now through the working groups of SPP and NAU convened at least ten years ago for this express purpose among others.

 

[Lester]

This subprime mess sounds like one big ponzi scheme

 

[Avro]

Just like Turdoh.

No, I was referring to the deficit left by Mulroney and the Reagan/Bush era.

 

[Avro]

Off shoreing helps few in the recipiant countries where labour laws are virtually nonexistant, and wages are kept at subsistance levels. Offshoring concentrates wealth in the third world at the expence of those countries workers. Why would you think that moving jobs from the first to the third world was a net gain for either work force when it is demonstratably not. The debt for wars is large because of the burgeoning size of the western military and has nothing to do with western suffering or lack of it. You maintain that service sector jobs have replaced manufactureing jobs lost to globalization, this also is demonstratably incorrect, lost earnings because of globalization and free trade have not been recovered since the mid eightys. You can retrain all you want the jobs continue to migrate steadily to the zones where capital can realize enhanced profit. The srevice sector was sold to the public as a replacement for manufacturing jobs, something that was impossible from the beginning and continues to be, the size of the American debt proves that, personal and public credit has been stretched to the limit to maintain the illusion of prosperity, the power of that illusion can plainly be seen in your poor understanding of globalization

The fact is Dark that unemployment is at a thirty year low and someone is buying all the houses where I live and it's not the idiots at GM I can tell you that. It's people who have gotten off their butts and gotten a good education, training and started their own buisness. That's what many people do, they don't whine about it they take action and succeed.


Sorry, I'm not in some no life conspiracy induced stupor thinking there is some cabal of CEO's and corporate evil doers trying to ruin our lives. I like the fact that our low end jobs are being exported to improve the standard of living in poor nations while creating a renaissance in our own country. If you had your way we'd all be truning soil on the farm while carrying our hammer a sickle.

Oh, and you clearly failed to grasp what I was saying about western suffering when it comes to the war in Iraq......don't worry, I'm not shocked.

Try stepping away from the computer now and then, it may help.

 

[Zzarchov]

Though no one here knows, when Bush was elected I mentioned that this would end with the country in a recession and at war. Now look at Harper doing his damnedest to follow along and blame it on the American economy.

Elect a democrat and let the war come to an end, and get the economy strong again. Remember when Clinton had everyone working, and surplus from tax revenues, cheap gas and no one was fighting for the freedom of a country full of people that hate Americans?
Whew those were sure messed up days eh?

The biggest part of that that bothers me is the egoism that America sets the stage for the world to dance too.

The world was a different place in the Clinton era, and Clinton really didn't do much nor have much sway, he didn't control the congress.

The problem isn't what America is doing, its that the rest of the world is doing in comparison.

You are in the mindset that its about if the country is doing great or the country is doing terribley. Those are irrelevant.

What matter is, compared to its rivals, is the country doing better or worse. You've got real competitors again for the first time in almost 20 years, it won't be the Clinton years again no matter who you get or what they do.

 

[Avro]

and Clinton really didn't do much nor have much sway, he didn't control the congress.

Really?! Ask Alan Greenspan what he though of Clinton compared to both Bush's and Reagan keeping in mind Greenspan in a libertarian.

 

[Toro]

Clinton was a better steward of the economy, but people give too much credence to politicians. Its not that it is unimportant but not as important as political partisans would have you think. What is more important is the stability and the institutions of the country and the productivity and resourcefulness of the people.

What is more important is monetary policy since it influences the supply of credit.

 

[dancing-loon]

Alright, even if it is a repeat of what was previously stated, here is my two cents worth:

... Hi M..;
Yes, I read all about his 'tax break' and the chqs he wants to send out, especially to the poor! But he is TOO late. It will have little effect on the economy. The recession spiral has taken place, people have spent all their money and used up all their credit, and must learn to pay it back. I know... it's hard to pay for a dead horse, especially if one has 'dead horse' payments on a consolidation loan of $50,000 or more, and that is what SO many people have. The sub-prime mortgage thing, well, that was a greedy invention by legal loan sharks (ie. many banks and investment companies) to lend mortgage money to the poor, the no-credit, and the bad-credit consumer at high interest rates.... when other things in the economy go wrong, and those people lose their jobs (ie income) then yes, the mtg goes bad, and 'tower falls'. It was a huge business in the US, and the European investors and Asian investors were huge...so now it's a global hurting...and thus I think a global recession and slowdown.
On Thursday, the Chinese Hangseng stock exchange fell more than 1300 points in one day! That is huge, and to me, unheard of. And we complain if we lose over 600 points in one week!

It's all a cycle... and this too shall pass and sunnier days will come back. In the meantime, there are good deals to be had out there in the stock market!

 

[dancing-loon]

Another update from the same friend out West... (her comments are in red.):

Breaking News from The Globe and Mail
Don't assume the worst is over


Rob Carrick

Tuesday, January 22, 2008

OTTAWA — Don't be fooled by this morning's stock market resurrection......with the stock market falling over 600 points yesterday and regaining more than 500 points today, it's just a game of yo yo. I would expect this to continue over the course of most of 2008.

Central banks strapped an oxygen mask onto the stock markets this morning, and the S&P/TSX got right up off the floor. The U.S. markets were still down close to 200 points, but that's only because were playing catch-up with yesterday's global market decline. By the standards of what happened on Monday, the U.S. markets have today sustained a mere paper cut...just a note: yesterday the US stock markets were closed due to Martin Luther King day...then last night there was an emergency meeting with the Federal Reserve discussing the world markets and their huge declines. The U.S. decided to lower the federal central bank's interest rate by .75% , and this avoided mass carnage of the US stock market today, but they still had a decline of 128 points. Canada lowered it's Bank of Canada interest rate by .25%. For both countries, this is just a temporary fix, and will not fix the credit problems nor avert a recession.

The biggest mistake an investor could make right now is to assume that the worst of this market decline is over. This is no time to do some power shopping in the bargain bin. .the other biggest mistake an investor can do right now is to sell, or bail out of the market. That's like jumping off a tall building, when there really is no reason to. Remember, take the emotion out of all of this, and it's just a 'market down turn'... and we all know that if markets can go up, they also can go down.

Nibble, yes. Buy a taste of a stock you've had your eye on. But don't get carried away because the markets are going to go lower before they go higher. This morning, one of the bigger bulls on Bay Street conceded this point.
“Despite some buffeting from globally leveraged energy and materials stocks, the TSX now faces the prospect of sustained selling pressure over the next quarter and possibly as long as the next six months,” said Jeff Rubin, chief economist and market strategist at CIBC World Markets.

Mr. Rubin sees a mid-year low of 11,000 for the S&P/TSX composite,.(...so do I. Really folks...it's so possible...and it's not just a Canadian thing, it's global...I show you below) which implies a 10-per-cent decline from today's level. He then expects a 2,000-point rally by year's end, and more gains ahead in 2009.
Some investors are going to be tempted to sell now and buy back at the bottom of the market. Unfortunately, likely to completely miss the market bottom and end up costing themselves money. The better plan: take some cash and add to your best stocks and funds every so often over the next few months.

This strategy is called dollar-cost averaging and its main purpose here is to allow you to catch stock prices at low levels while preventing you from committing all your new money just as the market plunges anew. There are academic studies showing that making lump-sum contributions to your investments is a better strategy on the whole than dollar-cost averaging.

But here we're looking at the psychological aspect of things as well as the financial. If you make the sensible move of buying stocks when they're falling in price, it's best for your piece of mind if you risk only a bit of money at a time.

© The Globe and Mail

Look at the global stock markets here: as of today, Tuesday January 22, 2008


S&P/TSX +508.75 12640.88 DJIA -128.11 11971.19 S&P 500 -14.69 1310.50 Nasdaq -47.75 2292.27 Venture +75.41 2465.93
DJUK
+7.18
242.46
DJGER
+.43
293.55
Nikkei
-752.89
12573.05
HSeng
-2061.23
21757.63

Ok... TSX mid February last year (2007) mid 13,400
HSeng (hong kong) just a few months ago was sitting at 29,000
Nikkei (Japan) also just last summer was sitting at around 18,000
Our Nasdaq was doing so nicely when it flirted with a high of 2700..not so long ago!
So... you can see that yes, markets around the world are having a tough time... and it's a great thing, as now it's a good time to buy into market, but in bits and pieces over time (dollar cost averaging)!!!

Hang in there everyone. This is NOT the end of the world, it's just a normal part of the economic cycle!!

--------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't mind checking out the bargain bin!!!