These looters...

[Andem]

What will the wolrd (let alone Iraq) do about this Iraqi museum being looted? I've read that this piticular site is among the world's top 5 most valuable museum, holding some of the oldest artifacts of human civilization.

It kind of makes me think... why are my tax dollars going towards these aid packages to aid these baboons? If they can go so crazy like this, why should we help them? I'm not trying to be heartless, however, I think the state of mind of these people is a little off.

I also blame the Americans for this. In the Geneva convention, it is required that the conquerers (occupiers) immediately restore peace and order. But the U.S. marines and soldiers all refused to do this. I saw several videos on U.S. military personnel stating something like "we aren't police". But is it not their duty to police the place they've conquered? Yes! It is... Infact, in several occasions, people would be looting places right in front of Americans, and still, nothing happened.

Alright, so the Americans are not keeping peace and order.... Yet another international law broken. So now they're asking many countries around the world to come in and police the region... Including the RCMP.

Anyhow, my point is... The Americans are breaking even more international law and they expect the world community to clean up the mess they made.... Too bad there aren't reparation payments due


Side Note: I'm on medication right now, so my post may seem garbled and disorganised.

 

[Anonymous]

I might be a little off here. But I think america is allowing other nations to come in to help rebuild Iraq.
Allowing it to be an international effort. Which to some Americans is an appauling idea, since our soldiers bled to free the country.

As to violation of international laws...well, there are some interesting articles writen by people smarter than me questening if the Geneva convention is even applicable in moddern warfare. Just something to wonder about.

As for looting...well, it happens in every war. Civilians and military both do it. But at least soldiers prevented the robbery of that bank.

The soldier's comments? Well, US military (esp. advanced devisions) are not trained in policing civilians...but as the main body of the military catches up the regular army will be able to take over those duties.

 

[Stretch]

ahh but they saved the oil wells....
just as well this invasion wasn't about the oil tho' eh?

 

[Shmad]

As for looting...well, it happens in every war. Civilians and military both do it. But at least soldiers prevented the robbery of that bank.

Ah, so this time they didnt blow open the safe and destroy the money while attempting to 'secure' it you mean?

 

[Anonymous]

This war has always been about the oil.

Anyone who says otherwise is...uninformed.

But all aspects of the debate were about the oil. France and Russia opposed action because they had lucrative oil contracts with Saddam.

Well, the US broke the eggs. Now we just need to make an omlette.

 

[Andem]

This war has always been about the oil.

Anyone who says otherwise is...uninformed.

But all aspects of the debate were about the oil. France and Russia opposed action because they had lucrative oil contracts with Saddam.

Well, the US broke the eggs. Now we just need to make an omlette.

That's a little funny thing to say. Go against half of the world just to please some corporations. I hope one day Russia, Germany and France all do something that *REALLY* pisses the United States off... Let's just wait and see.

 

[Anonymous]

Andem, if you think the war in Iraq was JUST to please some corperations you are sorely mistaken.

Essentially what the US government did (and by that I am refering to what I believe Mr. Bush and his cabuinet did) was...
1: to find a situation that needed to be dealt with (in thier opinion)...Iraq had had several deadlines to comply and did not do so, not until threat of force was brought upon them.
2: Find out what they could gain from a conflict (oil). Measure that against the pros and cons for the nation and them personally. Seeing that for them the risks were well worth the potential gains they acted.

Bush and his cabinete desire oil, many americans disagree with this...but there is a culture of apathy/inability concerning the government. Many Americans feel they can not be heard because the legally elected officials are making a 4 year dash to try and gain as much as they can personally within thier 4 years of office. And then they will try to clean up thier image just before the next election.

If I had my way Mr. Bush would not be the US president, but he is. So I have to accept that until he is no longer the president.

To address American military action as the will of Americans is wrong/untrue/misleading. It would be like saying the actions of all French Canadians represent the opinions of every Canadian, or vice versa.

Down sizing an issue to its common denominators is great for making issues simple and feeling better about one's personal political views. But to truely come closer to open communication we must not reduce the complexity of world events with dogma and partism. We must look at the more complex and difficult questions facing us all. And find resolution.

Viewing the world as Black and White will not help any other human being who doesn't fit your view of "good and true". It only makes it easier to hurt and condemn those you see as "wrong".

W-K

 

[czardogs]

Personally I think the US government should be held accountable for the looting of the museums and hospitals. They were warned months before the war by a coalition of academics etc that such events were likely to take place especially with the museums.

They guarded the oil wells and ministries rather easily so the same could have been applied to the buildings housing the most complete history of the region and maybe of all early mankind.

One tank and handful of troops would have done the trick. Considering how many were in the area to not even try is a crime without doubt. Some will even say they did it on purpose(turn a blind eye) just to help in the complete tearing down of Iraqi culture, will and history.

 

[Shmad]

Regardless if the US wanted it to happen, it just makes them look a whole lot worse than they already are..

 

[LuShes]

Whoo hooo I'm gunna go cross boarder shopping, buy illegal Iraqi antiques and musem things. Get my tires slashed from irate americans hating canadians..

Hmm maybe it will pay off in the long run... buwhhahha !

 

[Andem]

They guarded the oil wells and ministries rather easily so the same could have been applied to the buildings housing the most complete history of the region and maybe of all early mankind.

Funny, eh? They could keep peace and keep rioters/looters out of the oil refineries but they could not keep it in the streets of Baghdad!

All I can say is 'typical americans'. That's my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

What is there to "loot" in an oilfield? Not too much except very heavy machinery.

What is the terrain around oil fields? My guess would be alot of ope ground.

What is there to "loot" in a city? What isn't there?
What is the terrain in an city? Alot of open windows, and doors, and alleys, and hidding spots, and rooftops, and...well, fighting/defending in a city is harder than in a big open field.

The difference between seeing the real world, and one shaded by political biase is measurable by one simple factor. How easily can you label right and wrong?
If you see things as black and white...you might want to invest in something that will challenge your preconceptions because the color of "gods" brush was gray.

 

[Anonymous]

What is there to "loot" in an oilfield? Not too much except very heavy machinery.

What is the terrain around oil fields? My guess would be alot of ope ground.

What is there to "loot" in a city? What isn't there?
What is the terrain in an city? Alot of open windows, and doors, and alleys, and hidding spots, and rooftops, and...well, fighting/defending in a city is harder than in a big open field.

The difference between seeing the real world, and one shaded by political biase is measurable by one simple factor. How easily can you label right and wrong?
If you see things as black and white...you might want to invest in something that will challenge your preconceptions because the color of "gods" brush was gray.

 

[Andem]

In response to Wulf-Krigan:

You are simply twisting the situation and making up ever more excuses. From what I can tell, the city of Baghdad has wide enough streets for tanks to travel on. Why would they put so much effort into guarding oil wells [as you say] with no-one around and not protect some of the earliest artifacts of mankind?

I can see the black, the white, the gray and the colour. What I can tell you is that there was no effort at all to keep order in the city of Baghdad, instead allowing these people to run wild after their homes and streets were bombed.

 

[Anonymous]

Andem, I don't know you. And maybe you just happen to be the wisest and most intelligent human being ever. And you can see every angle of every problem. But I don't think you are all that. (though you strike me as fairly bright.)

See, it's perspective. Millitarily protecting oil fields is an objective. Why? Oil is needed for tanks. Art works, and ancient artifacts are not.
Why not park a tank outside a musseum? Well, tanks are NOT indestructible. Fighting in a city is the WORST military scenario. Cover is plentiful giving the attacker a major advantage. Civilian targets abound and must be avoided (and before you say it American and British forces made an effort to avoid civilians, but civilians did die. That's tradgic but if they were not careful many more would have died). All in all it's a crappy fighting ground. Generals weigh the lives of thier troops against the value of any objective and I infer the commanders of the forces in Iraq did not see art and artifacts as worth more than the life of thier soldiers. That's a value judgement that they made.

I agree it sucks art and priceless artifacts were looted. But isn't there a point where you should say "Couldn't a people regulate themselves?" I mean, Americans didn't make people loot. Though I think we can all understand why the looters looted. We sympathize with them, but no one wants to sympathise with the American point of view.

In the end people will only get along by understand one another. And firebranding issues for "ratings" or to "prove how wrong" someone is will get us all very little. Highlighting differances seperates. Highlighting similarities brings people together.

And Andem, just a quick question as I am hoping this is my perception and not your meaning but...
"...instead allowing these people to run wild..."
Were you attempting to equate the iraqi people to animals? In the vernacular I am familiar with the caloquialism (sp) "run wild" is associated with children, animals, and people of sub-par intellegence and is derogator towards the object of the action (running wild). Maybe it means something else to you or was a minor slip of the tongue clarification would help.

 

[Andem]

We obviously have very different opinions on what happen(ed/ing) in Iraq. In all truth, neither of us really know what is going on. But I believe things could have been much different.

And Andem, just a quick question as I am hoping this is my perception and not your meaning but...
"...instead allowing these people to run wild..."
Were you attempting to equate the iraqi people to animals? In the vernacular I am familiar with the caloquialism (sp) "run wild" is associated with children, animals, and people of sub-par intellegence and is derogator towards the object of the action (running wild). Maybe it means something else to you or was a minor slip of the tongue clarification would help.

IMHO, Humans do run wild, It does not mean they are not civilized, but every people and every civilization needs governing to be civilized. People do 'run wild' when there is no one to enforce rules (ie: Iraqi Military/Police). It's been proven time and time again.

For the record, I believe Iraqis are some of most educated and civilized people in that piticular region. Before sanctions and wars, Iraq and it's people were "living the life" so to speak. Richer than any of it's neighbours.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification Andem, I see what you meant now. Helps me understand! *does the "I get it" dance*

But yes, neither of us are/were there...but I can gaurendamntee you things could have gone alot differently. Whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view and your vested interests.