The West should be free to Critcize Islam?

[Sassylassie]

If we followed their "Example of behavior" we be in jail for inciting hate. However they are allowed to hold Rallies under the "Guise of Peace Protest" where they call for death, distruction, all the while frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog. Let us Christian try that and see how long we last in Canada before the PC crowd has us charged, free speech is suppose to be for all. Not in Canada anymore.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Doesn't the Islamic religion disparage against anyone who is not muslim? Doesn't it criticize non-believers? Doesn't it use the word "infidels"?

Yes to all of those, but there are civilized ways to do that, that don't involve killing or injuring anyone. Islam also quite clearly requires its followers to respect what it calls "people of the book," by which is meant believers in a revealed religion (i.e. it's had prophets reveal the word of God to them) that has a written scripture. In practical terms, that means Christians and Jews. And Islam for most of its history has been not really too bad at that, according to my readings, and certainly better than Christianity has been for most of its history.

On the other hand, Islam also prescribes beheading for apostasy. You can't be raised Muslim and then decide you don't want to be one, the Islamic state will kill you. Islam can't be a modern, civilized faith unless and until it recognizes that some people don't want to follow it and it allows people to abandon it without fear of fatal retribution. I think the Muslim view of God is far more transcendental than the Christian view. Modern Christianity has deep roots in ancient Greek philosophy and expects God to be rational, reasonable, and to some degree comprehensible to the human mind. Islam seems to put God so far beyond anything we can comprehend as rational or reasonable as to make Him a completely transcendental mystery who every now and then drops policy statements on us.

That, I think, (and let me emphasize that I'm not entirely sure) was the essential point the Pope was trying to make last week when he quoted a 14th century Byzantine Emperor who was a little critical of Islam: reason and faith can work together successfully, violence and faith are antithetical and cannot produce anything of value. Ever.

 

[thomaska]

Why does Islam merit more respect than say...Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church? Its all a bunch of unprovable manure. Puhhleeze,,give me a reason why the "god hates fags bunch", is less deserving of respect than the "behead the infidels bunch"

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Why does Islam merit more respect than say...Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church? Its all a bunch of unprovable manure. Puhhleeze,,give me a reason why the "god hates fags bunch", is less deserving of respect than the "behead the infidels bunch"

I think it comes down to the level of individual people. Fred Phelps is no more representative of thoughtful modern Christianity (read Bishop John Shelby Spong's books) than Osama bin Laden is of thoughtful modern Islam. The extremists don't properly represent the faith. I'd immediately agree it's all unprovable, though I don't think I'd call it manure. Mystic nonsense maybe, but not manure.

I once had a manager who was a Pakistani Muslim, very devout and deeply committed to his faith. He was also a very kind, gentle, compassionate, thoughtful, scholarly man, one of the best managers I've ever encountered, and the man after whom I modelled my own management style when I got to that level. He knew I didn't share his views, and we had many long and thoughtful discussions of these matters, from which I certainly learned a lot, and I've always hoped he did too. I had no feeling that he thought I should be beheaded. That man will forever be the face of Islam to me, and I perceive much of Islam's current public face as a terrible perversion, the same as I perceive most fundamentalist Christian stuff as a terrible perversion. That man, and his version of Islam as I came to understand it, certainly merit respect.

I am deeply grateful that I knew him. Without his influence, I would have quite a different, and probably much less tolerant, view of much of what I see and hear in the news.

 

[ponygurl]

Muslims are no more violent and their religion is no more violent than any other religion. And their religion may even be more accepting of other religions than many Christian groups.

Well.. I may live in a bubble, but I don't know of any Catholics that cut off hands if they suspect theivery, or bury a woman to her neck and stone her to death because her neighbour raped her.

Islamic law and the way it is interpreted and practiced in different regions in the ME is inconsistent. Afghans behave much differently than muslims in the UAE would.

Perhaps we do not, and should not, critisize their ways in their countries. But when their ways begin to encroach on our ways, then we have every right.

As a country with pretty much open borders for immigration, we HAVE to set limits on what we deem acceptable and what we do not. We have human rights and civil rights in this country that many islamics simply do not believe in or live by in their own country. As long as we are accepting immigrants that are islamics into our own land, we MUST voice our standards and set limits as to what is acceptable behavior.

 

[Said1]

I once had a manager who was a Pakistani Muslim, very devout and deeply committed to his faith. He was also a very kind, gentle, compassionate, thoughtful, scholarly man, one of the best managers I've ever encountered, and the man after whom I modelled my own management style when I got to that level. He knew I didn't share his views, and we had many long and thoughtful discussions of these matters, from which I certainly learned a lot, and I've always hoped he did too. I had no feeling that he thought I should be beheaded. That man will forever be the face of Islam to me, and I perceive much of Islam's current public face as a terrible perversion, the same as I perceive most fundamentalist Christian stuff as a terrible perversion. That man, and his version of Islam as I came to understand it, certainly merit respect.

I am deeply grateful that I knew him. Without his influence, I would have quite a different, and probably much less tolerant, view of much of what I see and hear in the news.

What else can I say except I agree and VERY well said.

 

[Chukcha]

Why does Islam merit more respect than say...Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church? Its all a bunch of unprovable manure. Puhhleeze,,give me a reason why the "god hates fags bunch", is less deserving of respect than the "behead the infidels bunch"

do you mean to say, that it's better to be beheaded by the muslim for being infidel, than being rejected by the christian for being a fag?

 

[Chukcha]

As long as we are accepting immigrants that are islamics into our own land, we MUST voice our standards and set limits as to what is acceptable behavior.

I suggest non-muslim women should be shopping around for burques, just in case. Soon, our democratic system will not allow us to walk around dressed up like "westerners", it might hurt the feelings of muslim minded who came to live in western "democratic" society.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Perhaps if we weren't so afraid to hold this religion to account it would be more apt to clean up its act. When someone criticizes the Catho;ic Church or Jehova's Witness' I do not hear people calling them Catholicaphobes.

Truth is, public criticism of Islam can have dead;y results.

M

 

[hermanntrude]

fuzzy, i like your position best.

-freedom to criticise is not the same as freedom to deride
-derision should be discouraged but not punished violently or by death
-we should all realise that everyone will be insulted by something and we cannot live our lives without upsetting people.

 

[MattUK]

What happens if we stand up to them? Will they back down, or will they get even more violent?

its a massive gamble. In a simple world, I would agree that standing up to them and telling them that whilst they live in the West, they play ball by our rules, and they would if they were punished when they didn't.

We are not in a simple world, and I also dont think that stading up to them will result in anything more than a hell of a lot of dead westerners. They have already showed on a number of occasions what they are capapble of, and provoking them further will only heighten tensions and lead to more and more deaths.

Its a horrid situation to be in. And the longer it goes on, the more I feel like I am unwillingly becoming an Islamaphobe. But I cant be, I would not survive a week without a vindaloo, and all the waitors at my favourite restraunt are Muslims and I like them!!

 

[Zzarchov]

What happens if we stand up to them? Will they back down, or will they get even more violent?

its a massive gamble. In a simple world, I would agree that standing up to them and telling them that whilst they live in the West, they play ball by our rules, and they would if they were punished when they didn't.

We are not in a simple world, and I also dont think that stading up to them will result in anything more than a hell of a lot of dead westerners. They have already showed on a number of occasions what they are capapble of, and provoking them further will only heighten tensions and lead to more and more deaths.

Its a horrid situation to be in. And the longer it goes on, the more I feel like I am unwillingly becoming an Islamaphobe. But I cant be, I would not survive a week without a vindaloo, and all the waitors at my favourite restraunt are Muslims and I like them!!

Pssh, get Vindaloo at a Hindu restaurant

Perhaps standing up to them will mean more dead westerners, not standing up to them WILL mean more dead westerners.

 

[MattUK]

Which leads to more western deaths though? And if they get more violent, where and when does it stop? When one side has destroyed the other?

Please, dont take me wrong, I am not saying bow down to them or anything, because as a free man I dont want that. But, I think we need to exercise great caustion whatever we do.

I am glad I am not the one who has to decide what to do.

 

[Sassylassie]

RSC wrote: Truth is, public criticism of Islam can have dead;y results.

Amen to that thought.

MattUK and Zzarcov I agree with both of your post, somedays it seems hopeless?

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

What happens if we stand up to them? Will they back down, or will they get even more violent? its a massive gamble.

We have stood up to fascism and tyranny in the past. What makes this different? If we cherry pick the religions we can and cannot openly criticize, then we empower those who hold themselves above criticism.

Islam is using this fear to increase its size and reach in the world.

M

 

[MattUK]

I am not saying DONT stand up to them, I am saying that we are going to have to be very careful about HOW we stand up to them.

If our governments become very rash in their decision making, it could affect us all. We would be very quick to blame our leaders for bad decision making if their action resulted in the deaths of five million innocent westerners.

Its the old "think before you leap" situation.

 

[Sassylassie]

MattUK wrote;Its the old "think before you leap" situation.
We are we are pandering to the Muslims to the ninth degree but that isn't enough. Below is an article from the UK, talk about pandering and appeasement-so how low do we crawl and how many rights should we give up to appease the sleeping Lion?

Met orders review after Muslim refuses to guard Israeli embassy

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Fred Attewill
Thursday October 5, 2006
The Guardian


[/FONT]Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, last night ordered an urgent review of a policy that allows officers to refuse certain duties on moral grounds after a decision to excuse a Muslim policeman from guarding the Israeli embassy.
PC Alexander Omar Basha, who is attached to the force's Diplomatic Protection Group, objected to being posted to protect Israel's embassy in central London from possible terrorist attack because he disagreed with the country's bombing of Lebanon. The officer had reportedly attended a recent anti-war protest.
Article continues
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A spokesman for Scotland Yard said Sir Ian had ordered a rethink of the service's policy to consider special dispensations on moral grounds.
"Having learned of this issue I have asked for an urgent review of the situation and a full report into the circumstances," he said. A Met spokesman earlier said allowances were occasionally granted to officers who objected to duties on moral grounds.
"In terms of the general protocol for officers requesting to be moved for any reason we'd say that on occasions, for a variety of reasons, an officer may have to be moved within a specific command," the spokesman said. "Each case is considered separately, balancing the needs of the Metropolitan police service against those of the individual and the role which they will have to perform." The case has provoked unease from those who worry that officers may be able to start picking and choosing their duties. John O'Connor, a former Flying Squad commander, told today's Sun: "This is the beginning of the end for British policing. If they can allow this, surely they'll have to accept a Jewish officer not wanting to work at an Islamic national embassy? Will Catholic cops be let off working at Protestant churches. Where will it end?"

 

[ottawabill]

no one seems to be careful about trashing my Christian faith?
As with all religons certain members go way overboard. I have not read a lot of the Koran but what I did read seems nice peaceful and helping of others. However you get idiotic Iman's who tell everyone to kill kill kill. It's the nut buckets not the faith.

I am Christian and faithful to teachings. These teachings (in my opinion) have nothing to do with Southern Evangelist's telling me the Euro empire is from Satan..or Northern Ireland killing each other. It's what members of theses groups use to promote they hateful agendas.

With all that said..this is a free and democratic country..well I hope it is!! Anyone has the right to their opinion...

Why can't I say Islam (or its followers)seems brutal to me.

Why am I told the the word Christmas is offensive to other people and I must only have a holiday tree??

Seems like different rules for different players to me

 

[MattUK]

But we are not dealing with peaceful Christians on this occasion. And this is my point.

No, never ever should we give in to these people, not in a million years. I am just talking about finding an amicable solution to it that does not involve us giving up our rights. Chances are it will never happen and world war three will start before you know it...

 

[ottawabill]

I agree

I agree, it's just that I feel we are dealing with backwoods middleages Arabs who happen to be Muslim.

The whole society is in the dark ages. Women are property, killing and maming are normal activites in the name of God..this people are nuts. We can't do much about their society but when they come to ours we can..and should....

If I am to live in my country and even consider goig to war to protect my way of life..then I should stand up to activitties within my borders that offend my way of life..should I not?