The Viet Nam War by Ken Burns

[gopher]

In tonight's episode of the documentary, Walter Cronkite is quoted as saying the actions of Chicago mayor Daley were those of a police state because people were not allowed to lawfully assemble or demonstrate and were attacked by the criminal police. I well remember how in those days the far right used to defend the government in its brutal repression of the citizenry and condemned people's 2d Amendment rights.

How times have changed.

 

[Curious Cdn]

In tonight's episode of the documentary, Walter Cronkite is quoted as saying the actions of Chicago mayor Daley were those of a police state because people were not allowed to lawfully assemble or demonstrate and were attacked by the criminal police. I well remember how in those days the far right used to defend the government in its brutal repression of the citizenry and condemned people's 2d Amendment rights.

How times have changed.

... and the Black Panthers and Weather Underground were waiting in the shadows for armed, Communist revolution.

It was a time of great stupid. We are in another one, right now.

 

[Bar Sinister]

This will not be popular.

The original justification for military action in Indochina by men like JFK, Dean Rusk, Robert McNamara was to stop the spread of Communism. However naive that sounds in retrospect, a case can be made that the war waged for that end was ultimately a success. When it was all over, Vietnam fell, Laos fell, Cambodia fell ... but that was all. The Communist insurgency in Malaya had been successfully defeated by the British and it did not return. Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, The Philippines were all vulnerable places but Communism spread no further.

We know what happened in Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines, but what we don't know is whether the Vietnam War had anything to do with stopping the spread of communism in those nations. There is actually very little evidence that that was the case.

 

[gopher]

... and the Black Panthers and Weather Underground were waiting in the shadows for armed, Communist revolution.

It was a time of great stupid. We are in another one, right now.

Why communist revolution succeeded in Russia:

Because it was financed by Wall Street.


The fact that Wall Street did not finance the Panthers, WU, or SDS is why commies failed to win here.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Really?? Post something from this century that backs your claims up. All the old witnesses have been shown to not have a clue what the fuk they are talking about. Now is your chance to open your big, big, big mouth.


David Cole did his research, that it doesn't fit with the bullshit you believe is why you are trying to discredit him. Very fuking lame on your part.
Try posting some.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-rabbi-not-even-1-million-jews-killed-in-holocaust/
'At least five million of the six million were total goyim,' ultra-Orthodox rabbi declares NY rabbi: ‘Not even 1 million’ Jews killed in Holocaust

Posting a link to an idiot who has no evidence for his anti-holocaust nonsense does not strengthen your delusional post.

 

[gopher]

We know what happened in Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines, but what we don't know is whether the Vietnam War had anything to do with stopping the spread of communism in those nations. There is actually very little evidence that that was the case.

I remember the war quite well and participated in extensive history books club discussions and writings. To this day I have yet to see any evidence which supports the notion that the war was to stop the spread of communism. On the contrary, all evidence suggest that it was for war profiteering. In fact tonight's episode of the documentary has a segment which suggests that profiteering was the actual intent of that criminal war of imperialistic terrorism.

 

[Nanoose]

I'v been watching that series - finding it quite interesting. Is ken Burns the producer of the series and is he the same guy that wrote - The Things They Carried?. Cheers!

 

[Bar Sinister]

I remember the war quite well and participated in extensive history books club discussions and writings. To this day I have yet to see any evidence which supports the notion that the war was to stop the spread of communism. On the contrary, all evidence suggest that it was for war profiteering. In fact tonight's episode of the documentary has a segment which suggests that profiteering was the actual intent of that criminal war of imperialistic terrorism.

I won't argue with you on that point although I think it is rather debatable. However, my post was intended as a comment on the fact that communism did not spread beyond Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos, not the reasons for the war.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'v been watching that series - finding it quite interesting. Is ken Burns the producer of the series and is he the same guy that wrote - The Things They Carried?. Cheers!

Burns is producer and one of two directors (the other is Lynn Novick). The Things They Carried was written by Tim O'Brien. He approves of Burns's work generally, but is not connected to it.

Y'know, you could have googled this yourself. Just sayin'.

I remember the war quite well and participated in extensive history books club discussions and writings. To this day I have yet to see any evidence which supports the notion that the war was to stop the spread of communism.

You mean aside from the fact that we were trying to help a nominally democratic quasi-dictatorship resist being taken over by a nominally communist dictatorship?

 

[Mowich]

I remember the war quite well and participated in extensive history books club discussions and writings. To this day I have yet to see any evidence which supports the notion that the war was to stop the spread of communism. On the contrary, all evidence suggest that it was for war profiteering. In fact tonight's episode of the documentary has a segment which suggests that profiteering was the actual intent of that criminal war of imperialistic terrorism.

2 billion dollars worth of aid/supplies to Viet Nam was actually diverted and sold on the black market. Somebody was raking in the dough.

All those who endorsed the treasonous Johnson/Nixon war should have read The Ugly American in order to realize the phoniness and unwinnable nature of the war. Only after the Pentagon Papers were disclosed did the vast majority of politicians and media finally speak out against that war. Too bad they had such short memories or they would have condemned Bush's war of imperialistic terrorism on Iraq because the excuses used to "justify" it were almost exactly the same as those used by the Vietnam war's apologists.

Both wars were clearly intended to enrich the wealthy. But none dare call it treason.

It is way too easy to judge when it is the past you are holding to account, gopher. You have to realize that people back then were not as well informed as we are today when breaking news is a touch away and there are eyes and phones everywhere. The news that was fed to Americans from the government was a pack of lies but no one was saying that and it was only later in the war that the MSM started telling them what was really happening. That, thanks to journalists who were on the front-lines and who traveled with companies seeing with their own eyes what was happening. 250 of them died in the war.

There are a lot parallels between Bush Jr's wars and what happened in Viet Nam, with that I agree. It is almost as if no one bothers to sit down and research the history of the country and what happened when it was invaded by foreigners. That applies to both Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[MHz]

You mean aside from the fact that we were trying to help a nominally democratic quasi-dictatorship resist being taken over by a nominally communist dictatorship?

You spelled 'the CIA (old German Nazis running the show one) wanted to become a drug dealer' wrong. That part hurt the narrative??

 

[Mowich]

In tonight's episode of the documentary, Walter Cronkite is quoted as saying the actions of Chicago mayor Daley were those of a police state because people were not allowed to lawfully assemble or demonstrate and were attacked by the criminal police. I well remember how in those days the far right used to defend the government in its brutal repression of the citizenry and condemned people's 2d Amendment rights.

How times have changed.

[FONT=&quot]"A democratic convention is about to begin in a police state - Walter Cronkrite" [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


The Democratic Convention in Chicago was nightly news here in Canada. I remember being absolutely horrified as I watched the demonstrators being clubbed - even as they were pitched in to the back of a paddy wagon. It was pretty gruesome stuff and really sobering.



Just imagine if that happened today. But back then, in a Gallup poll done after the convention, 56% of Americans polled, agreed with the police tactics. 56 percent thought the clubbing of American kids was A okay.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

So Tricky Dicky fixed the 1968 Presidential Election. I did not know that but it comes as no surprise that he would. Apparently he went behind the Johnson administrations' back and contacted the Saigon government who at the time were about to sit down to the peace talks that the Johnson administration had brokered. He told them to hold off as once he was elected, he'd give them a much better deal. When he did so, he committed treason. He was caught doing so on tape. He was also caught on tape lieing like a rug to Johnson that he had no hand in the matter. Johnson, of course, knew better. He'd heard the tapes. He knew Nixon was guilty but he refused to go public with his knowledge and of such moments are history made. A history that would see the office of the President smeared by a crook and a liar who but for fortune might never have held that august office and one that he was never worthy of holding.

 

[MHz]

The whole series is on youtube so why wait??

 

[gopher]

Mowich

It is way too easy to judge when it is the past you are holding to account, gopher. You have to realize that people back then were not as well informed as we are today when breaking news is a touch away and there are eyes and phones everywhere. The news that was fed to Americans from the government was a pack of lies but no one was saying that and it was only later in the war that the MSM started telling them what was really happening.

People were far more informed back then about the Gulf of Tonkin situation than many people today realize. I distinctly remember the book Truth Is The First Casualty which said that incident was a fake:


https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-...th-is-the-first-casualty-the-gulf-of-tonkin-/



The Pentagon Papers merely confirmed that the book was the truth all along. Thus, every American who was killed in Vietnam was killed by his own government. Everyone who defended the war, and those who continue to do so today, supported and support TREASON.



People were fully aware that the IAEA reported there were no WMD in Iraq at the time of Bush's invasion during his war of imperialistic terrorism. They willfully chose to disregard that truth despite all the efforts of Hans Blix to prevent that criminal war.

Today people see videos of police deliberately attacking and killing civilians and then pretending it was all justified. This includes videos of police agent provocateurs deliberately committing crimes. Despite all the evidence that these were criminal actions, the police go scot free and delusionals of the far right applaud. People even applauded when Dump pardoned Arpaio despite the fact that his crimes resulted in jury awards of $50+ million to his victims.



True, people are more informed today than in the past. But people were informed back then to a considerable extent. Why they chose to ignore the truth was and remains a matter of willful blindness and treason.

 

[Mowich]

The whole series is on youtube so why wait??

Why? Because I want to be able to digest each episode on it's own. So much takes place in each one that sitting down and viewing the entire series would not allow me to do that.

 

[gopher]

Very illuminating episode tonight. John Kerry spoke of atrocities committed by many American soldiers, how returning vets agreed he was a good spokesman for them, and how they threw away their medals because they knew the war was evil and imperialistic. The Pentagon Papers were disclosed proving that it was the American government that was criminal in that war. The frightening picture of the naked little girl burned by napalm was shown and this was the final nail in the coffin for the pro war crowd. After that nobody defended the Johnson-Nixon treason.

 

[Mowich]

Very illuminating episode tonight. John Kerry spoke of atrocities committed by many American soldiers, how returning vets agreed he was a good spokesman for them, and how they threw away their medals because they knew the war was evil and imperialistic. The Pentagon Papers were disclosed proving that it was the American government that was criminal in that war. The frightening picture of the naked little girl burned by napalm was shown and this was the final nail in the coffin for the pro war crowd. After that nobody defended the Johnson-Nixon treason.

While many vets did agree with most of what Kerry said during the hearings, many others thought his remarks regarding atrocities committed tarred all the forces with the same brush, gopher. Nothing was further from the truth. There are bad things done in war - in every war and yes they should be brought into the open and exposed but no one is best served when all members of a fighting force are accused of something in which they had no part. There were thousands on honorable men fighting in Viet Nam and best you remember that.

 

[TenPenny]

I think one of the big things that the public learned during the war was that the politicians were quite happy to boldly lie about how things were going, what the goals were, and what was actually happening. Once the public realized that the presidents were lying to everyone, including congress, the people lost respect in the office of the potus and the military leadership.


It's now an assumption that the White House is always lying about everything, and the military is doing things that are illegal and serving other objectives, because that's the lesson learned from Vietnam.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Very illuminating episode tonight. John Kerry spoke of atrocities committed by many American soldiers, how returning vets agreed he was a good spokesman for them, and how they threw away their medals because they knew the war was evil and imperialistic. The Pentagon Papers were disclosed proving that it was the American government that was criminal in that war. The frightening picture of the naked little girl burned by napalm was shown and this was the final nail in the coffin for the pro war crowd. After that nobody defended the Johnson-Nixon treason.

Kennedy started it. Sorry, goph, but if you want to characterize Vietnam as one long war crime, your beloved St. John is as guilty as Lyndon and Dick.

 

[justlooking]

Kennedy started it. Sorry, goph, but if you want to characterize Vietnam as one long war crime, your beloved St. John is as guilty as Lyndon and Dick.

Truman started it, giving money to the French.