The science of accupuncture (or lack thereof)

[karrie]

Your rash.....did it look like your hands were deep fried?

No, it looked like I'd been barehand picking stinging nettle. I still get the rash, but in smaller patches. It's not actually the skin, it's the nerves in my hands, which is what freaked the docs so bad. The docs have no answer as to what it is, or what to do about it.

Do you get a specialist such as a neurologist or someone who specializes in fibromyalgia, as well as a GP? Who is insisting on 'proving' depression? Whoever, that's inducing stress in you which worsens fibromyalgia symptoms AIUI. They should be smacked silly for that. Stress is at the top of the list for causing fibromyalgia symptoms, which you no doubt know all too well.

For all the neurological disorders that they've found the genes for, the theory is getting pretty widely accepted that a severely stressful/traumatic event will act as a trigger causing the dormant gene to become "active". Huge amount of research studies are indicating this *may* be the cause & effect thing, if so, then it becomes how to 'switch' the trigger off. You were in a very nasty high stress/trauma state for a prolonged period of time. If there is a gene for fibromyalgia, and I'm willing to bet they'll find one eventually, it could have well been 'triggered' by that traumatizingly painful episode for you IMHO. Not that that helps any. :::sigh::: But don't let a doc hassle you about depression, Karrie, that's not right and definitely not helpful. Besides its a form of blaming the victim in a way.

I was diagnosed by a rheumatologist, but, that was just for the diagnosis. I haven't seen him since. Since there's nothing they can really do, there's not much point I guess. As for trying to 'prove' depression, that was a huge issue when I lived up north. Thankfully, since moving here, the docs seem to have a bit more faith that I, and my family, know my own state.

 

[taxslave]

Well, what I have is fibromylagia, so, it's kind of considered a combination disease. The muscles go into spasm, but, the nerves also go haywire. When they really want to get you good, they'll even hook a TENS machine up to the needle. I don't know what nerve conditions that's indicated or contraindicated for though.

If you have any extended health coverage, it might be worth an assessment for you.



This is why I asked Dexter 'what kind', because it's not the 'conventional' usage, but they are quite firm in their support of the science behind it.

When it comes to release techniques, I have had that done as well, and yes it's the same theory. The problem is the pain level. A needle hurts and stings, but not nearly as bad as someone pushing on a tender point. When I'm really desperate for relief, I'll lie on a hardwood floor. That's enough to bring tears to my eyes, as the nerve bundles press against the floor. I can't let someone else work on any of those painful spots very easily.



Like I was saying above, meditation seems to be a large part of how it works as well when applied in a calming, surface manner. It literally draws for you a grid of sensation to focus your mind upon, and as Cliffy pointed out, the practitioner will then discuss with you what you wish to achieve and what is standing in your way. The power of meditative states has been proven to allow people to acheive a great amount of healing by enabling them to reduce stress and thus increase immune function. I think that's a huge part of the placebo effect.

There is no placebo effect involved. Acupuncture and acupressure work. Limits are mostly determined by the skill level of the practitioner.
Do you really think Big Pharma would let something that cuts into their profits become mainstream?
Most of us, myself included would rather be out for surgery rather than watching it.

 

[petros]

No, it looked like I'd been barehand picking stinging nettle. I still get the rash, but in smaller patches. It's not actually the skin, it's the nerves in my hands, which is what freaked the docs so bad. The docs have no answer as to what it is, or what to do about it.

Were you ever tested for mycoplasma?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Acupuncture and acupressure work.

I don't think anybody's said otherwise, only that they don't work via the mechanism claimed or to the extent usually claimed by traditionalists.

 

[karrie]

Were you ever tested for mycoplasma?

No, because none of my symptoms fit with it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...seeks to dissect it and strip away the faith in it that makes it work so effectively.

Well personally, if it's faith in it that makes it effective, I'd want to know that before submitting to treatment.

 

[karrie]

I don't think anybody's said otherwise,.

I'd argue that your first post sounded like you were asserting that all it does is cause pain. It came off as quite dismissive of the effect, even though reading further explanations point to what you really meant.

Well personally, if it's faith in it that makes it effective, I'd want to know that before submitting to treatment.

I don't believe it's just faith. Like I've said, the meditative quality of it is crucial. To have someone literally draw out for you something to focus a meditation on is a great way for people who can't meditate otherwise to concentrate.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I'd argue that your first post sounded like you were asserting that all it does is cause pain.

Really? Guess you never know how you're going to be understood. Or not. I didn't mention pain at all, all I said was that it seems to work for some conditions in some people some of the time, but to a lesser extent and by different mechanisms than are usually claimed for it. That's the conclusion I draw from everything I've read about it, which is a good deal more than just Robert Carroll's essay. I just thought it was a pretty good summary, so I provided the link.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Actually the title of the thread is a bit misleading. If acupuncture was a science it would be much easier to prove its effectiveness. No one argues about the medical effectiveness of anesthesia, immunization programs, or most types of surgery. The fact is that accupuncture lacks clear scientific evidence to support many of its claims. I recall one study involving accupunture in which some patients were given treatment according to the doctrines of accupuncture and an equal number simply had needles inserted into their body at random. The number of people reporting relief from their medical problem was identical which seems to indicate that accupuncture is more about the placebo effect than about real medicine.

I will freely admit that I am quite skeptical about most claims made by practitioners of new age medicine; especially since certain treatments like candling and cupping were abandoned as quackery by most physicians during the 19th century. Nor is anyone going to convince me that aromatherapy has any practical use other than making the room smell nice; at least not until someone conducts a proper scientific study.

 

[karrie]

Actually the title of the thread is a bit misleading. If acupuncture was a science it would be much easier to prove its effectiveness. No one argues about the medical effectiveness of anesthesia, immunization programs, or most types of surgery. The fact is that accupuncture lacks clear scientific evidence to support many of its claims. I

So how exactly does the thread title fail to address the fact that this was a debate about the science, or lack thereof, surrounding accupuncture?

 

[karrie]

I'll bump this for you Bar while you're on, because I'm really curious about the answer.

 

[Bar Sinister]

I'll bump this for you Bar while you're on, because I'm really curious about the answer.

Actually I wasn't going to reply. I don't usually get into shouting matches. But I will give you an example of how the title caught me. Let's say I introduced a thread entitled "The Fallacy of Accupucture (or lack thereof)" The change of wording really changes the way the subject is viewed. My little post was simply pointing that out. Sorry if you found it offensive.

 

[karrie]

Not offensive, I was just curious as to what your issue was with it.