The palaces in the sky

[Dexter Sinister]

There should be a doer of every act, so who is the doer of this universe?
For any building there should be a builder, who then is the builder of this universe?

Don't say there isn't any; this is insisting on vain claim.

Who is then the maker of this universe? Who inserted all this system and order in this universe?

That's one of the oldest fallacies around on this subject, it's a line of argument that goes nowhere because it leads to an infinite regress or the falsification of the original premise. It's obvious what your answer to these questions would be, you'd say it's god that answers them all, but that's not really an answer, it's more a way of avoiding an answer. Where did god come from then, who or what made him, some greater god? And then who or what made that maker, and so it goes, into an infinite hierarchy of builders and creators.

The usual response is some version of the claim that god was always here, but if you're going to take that line you might as well just claim that the universe was always here, it explains just as much. What you're really trying to do is explain something complex and mysterious by postulating something even more complex and mysterious as the cause, which explains nothing. It also violates the original terms of the argument: everything that exists must have had a creator, but you try to exempt the creator himself from that condition, which invalidates it. The argument produces either an infinite regress, or it self-destructs. So then you'll change the premise to everything but the creator had a creator, which is another fallacy known as begging the question.

This line of argument is simply not useful, it can't go anywhere or prove anything.

 

[eanassir]

A wise Inuit Elder was once told about God and Jesus by a Christian missionary. When the missionary finished, the Elder asked about the fate of his ancestors who died without every having a chance to know and believe in God and Jesus. The missionary explained that since they were ignorant of God they were innocent and went straight to heaven. The Inuit Elder then demanded to know, "So why are you telling me about God?!"
:^)

Every associater or idolater is in Hell forever​

When the Quran ayat revealed that whoso associates anyone or anything with God, then God forbids him Paradise and his resort will be Hell forever, then many believers came and asked Prophet Mohammed - salam be to him - about their fathers, brothers and relatives who had died before the Islam: what will be their fate in the afterlife.

Oday son of Hatim Taee asked the prophet about his father who was an excellent example of generosity and had died before the Islam; the prophet said: Every associater or idolater is in Hell. Oday surprised and was disappointed and said: How could this be: he was the most generous of all the Arab in his time?

Khansa, a female poet asked him about her brother whom she loved very much and he died in the pre-Islam period: the Prophet said: Every associater or idolater is in Hell. So she was disappointed and sad and said: How could this be, he was a good man: brave and generous? and she said: You have increased my sadness about my brother.

And so on, they were asking the prophet about their dead relatives and he answered them: Every associater or idolater is in Hell forever.

So this aya 5: 101-102 was revealed concerning this subject:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَاء إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ وَإِن تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْهَا حِينَ يُنَزَّلُ الْقُرْآنُ تُبْدَ لَكُمْ عَفَا اللّهُ عَنْهَا وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ
قَدْ سَأَلَهَا قَوْمٌ مِّن قَبْلِكُمْ ثُمَّ أَصْبَحُواْ بِهَا كَافِرِينَ

The explanation:
(O believers, question not about things which, if they were shown to you,would vex you;
yet if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they will be shown to you.
God has pardoned that;
for God is Most Forgiving, All-Clement.

Some people before you questioned [their prophets] such questions, then [likewise] denied them.)

It means:
Don't ask your prophet about such things, that if you know the answer you will be sad, but you will know the truth when the Quran is revealed telling you that every associater and idolater is in Hell forever.
The nations that passed away before you, also asked their prophets the same questions then they denied the answers as have you denied the words of your prophet.

And I asked Abu Abd-Allah about the associater or idolater in a remote island when no one near him to acquaint him about the monotheism and exclusive devotion to God alone: what will be the fate of such a man? He said: God will cause another man to come near him and acquaint him, and if a people savage in some islands, then God will choose one of them to inspire him and reveal to him that God is One and they should abandon the idolary; so that in the afterlife they will not say: we were not aware of this "exclusive devotion to God alone."

سورة المائدة
سورة المائدة

======================================================

That's one of the oldest fallacies around on this subject

No, it is not any fallacy; you always avoid this question.

You resort to a fallacy that who created God?
But first of all you admit there is God Who created everything in the universe.

The fallacy of who created the creator is refuted because it will be a vicious circle, and there should be an end of these creator, and there should be One Eternal Who created them all, or else this vicious circle cannot exist.

===========================================================

I surprise of many people seeing all this marvelous creation, and they doubt or deny the Creator, and they give their words the veil of philosophy or science.
How can any wise man imagine that all this universe and its rules, laws, systems and everything in the existence and all this has come to existence spontaneously or haphazardly or without wisdom or purpose.

 

[gerryh]

The explanation:
(O believers, question not about things which, if they were shown to you,would vex you;
yet if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they will be shown to you.
God has pardoned that;
for God is Most Forgiving, All-Clement.

No, the "God" that you preach about is NOT all forgiving or lenient. The "God" that you preach about is vengeful and unforgiving. The "God" you preach about picks favorites from among his children and threatens eternal damnation to his other children. This is not the work of a loving Father. The "God" that you preach about is not the God of Abraham, nor the Almighty Father that Jesus Christ has told us about.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

No, it is not any fallacy; you always avoid this question.

You resort to a fallacy that who created God?
But first of all you admit there is God Who created everything in the universe.

The fallacy of who created the creator is refuted because it will be a vicious circle, and there should be an end of these creator, and there should be One Eternal Who created them all, or else this vicious circle cannot exist..

As usual, you haven't understood anything I wrote and you made exactly the logical error I predicted you would.

 

[Cliffy]

And what if, like the Buddhists say, this is all a dream and the Universe is god dreaming itself into existence?

There are a lot of "what ifs" but unless you are god, you can only guess at what, if anything, caused all this to come into existence.

 

[damngrumpy]

All I can say after reading this stuff is Oh God.
Well actually the man has a right to say what he wants, but the fact is the Muslim Holy Book
is nothing more than the writings of a mad man on drugs in most cases. Now the Bible that is
different. It according to some had two dozen main books of the Bible originally. The problem
was the Church was going through a political struggle and the only way to resolve it was to have
four books of the Bible that contradict each other at times. Face it you all have a choice here,
you can believe a bunch of blood thirsty people who were likely on drugs writing the book of
Islam, the Old Testament was likely written on drugs too. There were legions of Angels, there
were burning bushes that God spoke through, and of course the downing of the wall of Jericho.
Then there is the present Bible a book that likely had some real legitimacy at one time time
with books on the left right and center. No man couldn't leave things alone, the Bible became
a political book, with the rantings of Mathew Mark Luke and John.
Not to be outdone, Pope Gregory began messing with the characters in the Bible. Mary not
mother Mary but Magellan, went from being a follower of Jesus to a prostitute, and Jesus saved
her. All this while Gregory was selling shares and passes into Heaven if you bought a brick to
build the Rome Headquarters for the Church.
Not to be out done the kings of Europe began having the Bible rewritten to better reflect the
issues of the day King James comes to mind as the most prominent. Martin Luther then came
along and made his changes.
Now of course we have Televangelists and home spun preaches giving their versions of things.
The Muslims have gone from Holy Books to Bombs.
Can anyone see why some of us believers and otherwise have some problems with organized
religion and the visions people see?
As for mansions, I know how God can give me a mansion right here on earth, in less than two
hours the lotto numbers will be called, if God wants me to have a mansion please give me the
vision that tells me what the numbers are for tonight. Other than that I am not depending on
pie in the sky. If you think this is crazy then read the above stuff you posted and the other ones
for that matter.
Oh and God Bless You.

 

[eanassir]

All I can say after reading this stuff is Oh God.
Well actually the man has a right to say what he wants, but the fact is the Muslim Holy Book
is nothing more than the writings of a mad man on drugs in most cases. Now the Bible that is
different. It according to some had two dozen main books of the Bible originally. The problem
was the Church was going through a political struggle and the only way to resolve it was to have
four books of the Bible that contradict each other at times. Face it you all have a choice here,
you can believe a bunch of blood thirsty people who were likely on drugs writing the book of
Islam, the Old Testament was likely written on drugs too. There were legions of Angels, there
were burning bushes that God spoke through, and of course the downing of the wall of Jericho.
Then there is the present Bible a book that likely had some real legitimacy at one time time
with books on the left right and center. No man couldn't leave things alone, the Bible became
a political book, with the rantings of Mathew Mark Luke and John.
Not to be outdone, Pope Gregory began messing with the characters in the Bible. Mary not
mother Mary but Magellan, went from being a follower of Jesus to a prostitute, and Jesus saved
her. All this while Gregory was selling shares and passes into Heaven if you bought a brick to
build the Rome Headquarters for the Church.
Not to be out done the kings of Europe began having the Bible rewritten to better reflect the
issues of the day King James comes to mind as the most prominent. Martin Luther then came
along and made his changes.
Now of course we have Televangelists and home spun preaches giving their versions of things.
The Muslims have gone from Holy Books to Bombs.
Can anyone see why some of us believers and otherwise have some problems with organized
religion and the visions people see?
As for mansions, I know how God can give me a mansion right here on earth, in less than two
hours the lotto numbers will be called, if God wants me to have a mansion please give me the
vision that tells me what the numbers are for tonight. Other than that I am not depending on
pie in the sky. If you think this is crazy then read the above stuff you posted and the other ones
for that matter.
Oh and God Bless You.

Ha ha ha, damngrumpy, I am coming to you sooner maybe.

No, the "God" that you preach about is NOT all forgiving or lenient. The "God" that you preach about is vengeful and unforgiving. The "God" you preach about picks favorites from among his children and threatens eternal damnation to his other children. This is not the work of a loving Father. The "God" that you preach about is not the God of Abraham, nor the Almighty Father that Jesus Christ has told us about.

gerryh, you are like that Mogog prince: this is his story in summary:

The story of the Gog and Mogog prince with the Muslim reformer

Gog and Mogog: we call them Maghool and Tatar invaded the Muslim world with two waves of invasion separated by a considerable period of time: the first one by Genghiz khan, and the second by Timur Lang.

In the first invasion, they were idolaters, in the second they came as Muslims but did not understand anything other than the external appearance, not the essence of the Islam.

So, in the second invasion, they were Muslims, and evenso they invaded the Muslim cities: plundering and killing.
One of their princes came to Syria, to a city: I think it was Hama.

Just before their coming, there was an excellent reformer called Ibn Taymia: he taught people the exclusive devotion to God alone and advised them to abandon the patron imams and patron sheikhs but that only God is the True Patron.

The traditionalist scholars complained him to the ruler of Hama city, and while they were judging him, the messenger of the Mogol prince arrived: the Mogol at that time were terrifying exceedingly: all people were fearful of them and of their violence.

The Mogol messenger said the army was near to the city, and he demanded they all surrender unconditionally, and that the ruler, the scholars and sheikhs altogether go out of the city to welcome the Mogol prince or else they would have vengeance on the whole city.

So the ruler, the scholars and sheikhs were silent and did not say any word, except Ibn Taymia the reformer who said to the Mogol messenger:
We shall not surrender, and will fight you if you dare come here, so return to your prince and tell him: if he is a true Muslim, let him go back and leave the Muslim city in peace.

Then he turned to the ruler and said: Your duty now is to strengthen the wall of the city and take the utmost alarm and put guards on the wall of the city, and to address people to stand firm.

Then he said: While my duty is to speak to this Mogol prince and advise him to retreat and leave the city in peace.

So he went to that Mogol prince and said to him: God will cast you in Hell fire, if you fight Muslims. And if you are a true Muslim it is forbidden that you fight them.
The prince said: What is this Hell, because no one ever told me about it? All of them tell me about Paradise and its prosperity, hoor and palaces.
The reformer said: They have cheated you and have not told you the whole truth; because as there is Paradise for those who obey God, there is also Hell for those who transgress on people and associate others with God.
And he went on advising and teaching him until that prince took his army and went back and left that city in peace.

And it is mentioned in the Quran 40: 2-3

تَنزِيلُ الْكِتَابِ مِنَ اللَّهِالْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ . غَافِرِ الذَّنبِ وَقَابِلِ التَّوْبِ شَدِيدِالْعِقَابِ ذِي الطَّوْلِ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ إِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ​

The explanation:
(Revealing of the Book [: the Quran, including wisdom and admonition] from God, the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

The Forgiver of sins [for the obedient], the Accepter of repentance [of those who repent],
Who is Severe in punishment [to the associaters];
and shows favor [on believers by guiding them aright];

there is no god [in the universe] except Him;
to Him will be the resorting [after your death.]

المتشابه من القرآن

 

[gerryh]

Like I said, the "god" you preach about is not "God" that Christ taught us about. The idolator would be you and your mohamed.

 

[eanassir]

All I can say after reading this stuff is Oh God.
Well actually the man has a right to say what he wants, but the fact is the Muslim Holy Book
is nothing more than the writings of a mad man on drugs in most cases. Now the Bible that is
different. It according to some had two dozen main books of the Bible originally. The problem
was the Church was going through a political struggle and the only way to resolve it was to have
four books of the Bible that contradict each other at times. Face it you all have a choice here,
you can believe a bunch of blood thirsty people who were likely on drugs writing the book of
Islam, the Old Testament was likely written on drugs too. There were legions of Angels, there
were burning bushes that God spoke through, and of course the downing of the wall of Jericho.
Then there is the present Bible a book that likely had some real legitimacy at one time time
with books on the left right and center. No man couldn't leave things alone, the Bible became
a political book, with the rantings of Mathew Mark Luke and John.
Not to be outdone, Pope Gregory began messing with the characters in the Bible. Mary not
mother Mary but Magellan, went from being a follower of Jesus to a prostitute, and Jesus saved
her. All this while Gregory was selling shares and passes into Heaven if you bought a brick to
build the Rome Headquarters for the Church.
Not to be out done the kings of Europe began having the Bible rewritten to better reflect the
issues of the day King James comes to mind as the most prominent. Martin Luther then came
along and made his changes.
Now of course we have Televangelists and home spun preaches giving their versions of things.
The Muslims have gone from Holy Books to Bombs.
Can anyone see why some of us believers and otherwise have some problems with organized
religion and the visions people see?
As for mansions, I know how God can give me a mansion right here on earth, in less than two
hours the lotto numbers will be called, if God wants me to have a mansion please give me the
vision that tells me what the numbers are for tonight. Other than that I am not depending on
pie in the sky. If you think this is crazy then read the above stuff you posted and the other ones
for that matter.
Oh and God Bless You.

You are a materialist and your views are materialistic;
you did not read my posts carefully to know that what I mean is that there are now the ethereal palaces and mansions high up in the sky, not seen by the material beings, and that when you will die you will see such mansions, but if you keep to this materialistic opinions, you will not go to such ethereal mansions.

There was one: Balaam son of Bosor, at the time of the ancient Children of Israel in the time of Joshu son of Nun; he was righteous worshipper of God, but then he deteriorated and inclined to stay on earth rather than going to Paradise following his death; that was because of his disobedience and his love for wealth maybe. I think you may not read this

(And recite to the [Jews] the story of [Balaam] to whom We gave Our signs, but he was stripped off them, and Satan pursued him, so he became one of those who beguile.

Had We pleased We would have raised him up [to Paradise] because of that [: his piety and worship]; but he inclined to [stay on] the earth, and followed his [own vain] desires.)


The above is the explanation of the Quran 7: 175-176
وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأَ الَّذِيَ آتَيْنَاهُ آيَاتِنَا فَانسَلَخَ مِنْهَا فَأَتْبَعَهُ الشَّيْطَانُ فَكَانَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ
وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَرَفَعْنَاهُ بِهَا وَلَكِنَّهُ أَخْلَدَ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ

تفسير سورة الأعراف
تفسير سورة الأعراف