The logic of Humanitarian Intervention

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

yeah, well I find it quite interesting, because most people over here know that Maragret Thatcher based her economic and political policies on old Enoch (although, he stated that "if she agreed with my economic policies, she didnt understand them").

I think what he was talking about there was that Britain hd a very strange bunch of relationships before WW2, Germany and Japan both wished to be like us, envyd us (especially Japan, but certainly to an extent Germany), and these were our enemies in that war, whereas we ended up sideing with the two countries who had envious eyes on our global power and influence, America for sure.

Enoch was mostly upset because he lived in Singapore for a while and after it was invaded he desperatly wanted to see the day when the union jack was returned to the island...but it wasnt our flag that was raised there.

Fact is, at the beginning of WW2 Britain was still the worlds largest superpower, and obviously many other countries wanted that place, whereas, like france, the Axis side's (and russia) would have only been too happy for us to keep our empire, the US actively sought the dismatling of this once great nation, we had to morgage off what we had for our very survival, a naval base here, independance promises there, all the while they drove a wedge between Britain and here colonial countries, such as Australia, seeing how we couldnt protect them while fighting ourselves, who comes in and plays the dashing knight eh?.

Underpinned, undermind, force into ruin, I'm sorry but just who now has the power and influence britain gave up eh?.....Thats why Mr Powell did not like America, he saw the country for what it was, Kind of like Tommy Gunn in Rocky 5..but remember, there's only one Rocky Ballboa lol

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

soz...thats actually a very popular view in the UK, not just mine, I hear some old dude on TV the other day when asked about britain's special "relationship" with the US, he went c-r-a-z-y!!!, he said "what relationship?, they turned their backs on us, sought to ruin us" pretty popular view, especially after reading that FDR sided with Russia against Winston Churchil and britain, stating that "good old uncle Joe just want peace, he doesnt want any gains from this war" he also thought WE wanted the balkans....how deluded can you get?, or how much of a friend are you to think that eh?....as I say, very popular view indeed, I'm surprised youve never heard it before, then again, it's that US bubble

 

[I think not]

Translation: You're pissed you're a mediocre power at best, learn to live with it, every dog has its day, that includes the US.

Distorting history and creating myths doesn't constitute fact and smug remarks about a "US bubble" perhaps prevents some of you to see you live in your own bubble? Look at Blackleaf, he thinks the best thing that ever happened in the history of the world was the birth of the English. :roll:

So Enoch wanted to raise the Union Jack in Singapore and didn't, and? I'm sure the people there are thrilled having broken away from the yoke of colonialism.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

oh that old "yoke of colonialism" rubbish, I suppose America is any better, when will you admit you are no different to us?...you take land, you colonise is and to hell with the previous occupiers.

it's not distorted ITN, and I have not created this "myth" it's a common theory in the uk and around the world...ask Blackleaf......Yoke of what exactly anyway?....all the other countries such as Canada, Australia etc could have joined you but they didnt.

it is a distorted myth to believe you were in anyway under the yoke of britain anyway....if we were so bad, why did george washington want to join us?, what yoke was he under then?.......nah it's all PR, PR mixed with a large population of bitter irish americans sturring up trouble......it's EXACTLY like the example I gave you, you are like the british, you are the most like british of any nation.

 

[Jay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

Thats shocking Jay...why did the Irish need aid? lol they wernt even in the war....I know for a fact that Britain was the first to pay off that debt though....an American Historian told me

 

[Jay]

But it doesn't leave a lot of room for the argument the "USA actively sought the dismatling of this once great nation".

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

I dont think it's really that relevent as far as tht goes though....for a couple of reasons, 1. Britain obviously got the lionshare of aid because it was basically a floating platform against the nazis and anything against them had to pretty much go thru us, and we were fighting the Nazi's the longest yada yada yada....

But I think Powell's standpoint had more to do with FDR's staunch opposition towards colonialism. Personally I think the word Colony is the main bit, I expect he didnt understand how America could say anything about colonialism from being borne out of it....I think maybe thats where it came from

 

[Jay]

I wonder what Tony Blair thinks about "colonialism".

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

same thing as GW Bush I think....really, if GWB thinks it...then so does Tony!! lol

but Enoch was more left-wing than tony blair, certainly as traditional Labour MP he'd be totally against colonialism.....but he's not a "traditional" labour MP so thats actually an intreging question...nice one Jay

 

[I think not]

oh that old "yoke of colonialism" rubbish, I suppose America is any better, when will you admit you are no different to us?...you take land, you colonise is and to hell with the previous occupiers.

The yoke of colonialism rubbish? Yeah that’s a very credible statement there Daz. America is vastly different than the British Empire, if you don’t know that then you don’t know your history.

it's not distorted ITN, and I have not created this "myth" it's a common theory in the uk and around the world...ask Blackleaf......Yoke of what exactly anyway?....all the other countries such as Canada, Australia etc could have joined you but they didnt.

What’s not distorted? That the US sought to dismantle the British Empire? You did that all on your lonesome, you didn’t need any help. And again you are defying history, I don’t know about Australia, but Canada attempted multiple times to free itself from British rule and as the benevolent “civilizing” force you were, you hung anybody with such notions.

it is a distorted myth to believe you were in anyway under the yoke of britain anyway....if we were so bad, why did george washington want to join us?, what yoke was he under then?.......nah it's all PR, PR mixed with a large population of bitter irish americans sturring up trouble......it's EXACTLY like the example I gave you, you are like the british, you are the most like british of any nation.

We are in many ways like the British, it is part of our heritage, this is a fact. I’m not getting into a debate with you on the American Revolutionary War….again. Whereas your population was suffering at the time, your King decided otherwise. We were the only former colony to have successfully revolted. You need to get past this already.

 

[I think not]

I dont think it's really that relevent as far as tht goes though....for a couple of reasons, 1. Britain obviously got the lionshare of aid because it was basically a floating platform against the nazis and anything against them had to pretty much go thru us, and we were fighting the Nazi's the longest yada yada yada....

You are contradicting yourself, if the US sought to dismantle the British Empire you would not have gotten a single penny in aid, nor would you have received assistance through Lend-Lease. Make up your mind already.

But I think Powell's standpoint had more to do with FDR's staunch opposition towards colonialism. Personally I think the word Colony is the main bit, I expect he didnt understand how America could say anything about colonialism from being borne out of it....I think maybe thats where it came from

So FDR was against colonialism and this is a bad thing how exactly?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

because he was sat, as the head honcho for a country that was founded by colonialism, god the Texians, the Louisianna land grab, the continuing push towards the "wild west" that was colonialism you know?, you didnt enlighten any native americans you know?....I love this, it's like Thomas Jefferson, lovely man, hated slavery, wanted it banned...oh except the 256 slaves that he owned.

Canada tried to free itself multiple times?, ah you mean that trecherous william McKenzie fella, well, if you do know your history then you'd know the vast majority of canadians were completly against this, it was just the US being it's usual self and sturring up trouble and dissention, like they tried everywhere else that the UK had a foothold.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

they fought to stay with the british, and not become a country a minor part of the most hypocritical nation on earth, their very reason for being was because they wanted to stay with us and not join your bunch of turncoats

 

[I think not]

because he was sat, as the head honcho for a country that was founded by colonialism, god the Texians, the Louisianna land grab, the continuing push towards the "wild west" that was colonialism you know?, you didnt enlighten any native americans you know?....I love this, it's like Thomas Jefferson, lovely man, hated slavery, wanted it banned...oh except the 256 slaves that he owned.

Land grab? I realize you have a problem comprehending the Louisiana Purchase as actually being a purchase from France, the British Empire was used to taking rather than buying, God forbid your royalty ever had to fork over any money for anything eh? How else would they have paid for all those court functions. Thomas Jefferson huh? For someone who makes claims in the Kenya thread that it was perfectly acceptable at normal at the time, your comment is a bit of twist, no? Want to make a comment without being bias? It helps promote your credibility.

Canada tried to free itself multiple times?, ah you mean that trecherous william McKenzie fella, well, if you do know your history then you'd know the vast majority of canadians were completly against this, it was just the US being it's usual self and sturring up trouble and dissention, like they tried everywhere else that the UK had a foothold.

Now now don’t forget Robert Nelson and Upper Canada’s Fifth Column during the War of 1812. Treacherous to the crown perhaps, you’re familiar with the crown right? The one that rules because they happened part of a “fortunate phuck”. The US abandoned any aspirations with British North America after the War of 1812, but hey, if you want to give credit the US for dismantling a tyrannical oppressive world empire, we’ll take it.

they fought to stay with the british, and not become a country a minor part of the most hypocritical nation on earth, their very reason for being was because they wanted to stay with us and not join your bunch of turncoats

Still mad about the only colony to give your royals the finger? The only ones that fought to stay with the British were the Empire Loyalists that controlled all of Upper and Lower Canada, the people were being oppressed, they tried to revolt and failed, if you were as benevolent as you actually think, you would of let them govern themselves. But you saw it fit that their laws be ratified in London upto 120 years after the War of 1812, at which point you decided you couldn’t afford “policing” your colonies any longer. And yet you still held on to their rights to modify their Constitution till 1982, very benevolent of you.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

Oh do come on.....who are you trying to kid?

America was not born out of democracy, or it's love for the common man, it was "pull the ladder up jack and sod the rest"....god, I'd accept an indian shooting down britain for being oppressive (strangley they dont though), but I'll never accept it from America....I will never accept this rubbish, oh yeah, thats right, it was only a tiny tiny minority in canada that wanted to stay british eh?, yes I know about the family compact, but thats such utter nonsense, call a referendem now, see what the results would be.....stay loyal to britain, their forced to do that are they?...well maybe we should ask Australia, they just had a referendem, I wonder what the result of that was.

and you wonder why most of britain thinks like Enoch Powell towards america, because, believe it or not, a lot of people never bought into your repackaged rebranded version of a british idea, they could see through your "freedom for all.........except the black, the natives or anyone else who wasnt part of the former Anglo traitors" and they prefered their govenments to speak the truth and admit that everyone was indeed not equal.

Colonialism is when a group of people colonise a peice of land that is either unihibited or not currently inhibited by the said people...I dont care if you bought that land off the french or not...you didnt ask the native americans for that land did ya?....colonialism full stop.

full stop. Britain ruled over people, crushed their lives for nothing more than their nationality, their race, what family they were born into, that has never been denied, they ruled distant lands with an iron fist, no question........I will never buy this truth, justice and freedom for all nonsense, because that what it is.....America, given the chance, just like Afghanistan, just like Iraq, would do exactly the same as the British, your just jelous because you will never become as big as the british were, your empire will be pretty shortlived if it continues the way it is going.

 

[I think not]

America was not born out of democracy, or it's love for the common man, it was "pull the ladder up jack and sod the rest"....god, I'd accept an indian shooting down britain for being oppressive (strangley they dont though), but I'll never accept it from America....I will never accept this rubbish

It doesn’t matter what you accept or acknowledge in history, you got your royal asses kicked all the way back to Britain and 200 years later, you still can’t get over it. For now, your America’s bitch, you will continue to be that until the status quo changes, at which point America will become someone else’s bitch, but not the Brits, you’ve had your run.

oh yeah, thats right, it was only a tiny tiny minority in canada that wanted to stay british eh?, yes I know about the family compact, but thats such utter nonsense,

This is the way the British system of governance was setup, you think you had a million troops scattered all over the planet? No, you had loyalists in the respective colonies governing everything and keeping the population in check and squashed any hint of rebellion. You mentioned India, that’s odd that you would, since many bloody battles took place before even conquering India and many revolts were dealt with, the jolly ol British way. Economic sanctions which led to famine and disease that would wipe out millions the world over.

call a referendem now, see what the results would be.....stay loyal to britain, their forced to do that are they?...well maybe we should ask Australia, they just had a referendem, I wonder what the result of that was.

Because Daz, the proposed changes of changing the monarch and the Governor General were ridiculous, read beyond the result and look at the details. They were going to appoint a Head of State instead of electing one in their new “republic”. They were also very skeptical about Constitutional changes. Are you seriously suggesting people prefer to be governed by a monarch or system 10,000 miles rather than govern themselves? You’re not serious are you?

and you wonder why most of britain thinks like Enoch Powell towards america, because, believe it or not, a lot of people never bought into your repackaged rebranded version of a british idea, they could see through your "freedom for all.........except the black, the natives or anyone else who wasnt part of the former Anglo traitors" and they prefered their govenments to speak the truth and admit that everyone was indeed not equal.

Dude, who cares what the Brits think, you have become irrelevant in world matters, everybody knows when the US tells the Brits to jump, they ask how high. It’s common knowledge, no need to exert yourself.

Colonialism is when a group of people colonise a peice of land that is either unihibited or not currently inhibited by the said people...I dont care if you bought that land off the french or not...you didnt ask the native americans for that land did ya?....colonialism full stop.

This is your definition of colonialism? Then you must refer to the British Empire as mass murderers because you were constantly displacing and murdering people to take over land and steal their riches.

full stop. Britain ruled over people, crushed their lives for nothing more than their nationality, their race, what family they were born into, that has never been denied, they ruled distant lands with an iron fist, no question........

Not so fast, Britain enslaved countries in order to keep the wealth heading into the coffers of your benevolent monarchy. They tortured, murdered and oppressed peoples from all over the world, making a claim it ruled with an iron fist is putting it mildly.

I will never buy this truth, justice and freedom for all nonsense, because that what it is.....America, given the chance, just like Afghanistan, just like Iraq,

Who cares what you buy, you have freedom today because of all the nations that ran to your assistance when you needed it, yes including America’s. And you will never see America colonizing anyone, we will leave Iraq and Afghanistan as we have done repeatedly in the past otherwise your island would have been singing to another tune.

would do exactly the same as the British, your just jelous because you will never become as big as the british were, your empire will be pretty shortlived if it continues the way it is going.

Americans have always been isolationists, we weren’t even involved with the world until WWII. And who cares if our “empire” is short lived or not. We don’t have British smugness, that’s one trait we left to you after 1776.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

"We don’t have British smugness, that’s one trait we left to you after 1776."



funniest thing I've heard in years!!!!! maybe we should ask the rest of the world who's the "smuggest" arrogent, egotistical nation in the world today, oh you picked that up strait away....down to the fact the people who founded your little nation were of the same class as those you claim to be "smug".

my point about india was this: the british took india by devious, cruel manipulative mean, genocidal perhaps.......but, in india we set up some colonial from britain to reinforce the british empire in india, it was of course the indians who were the oppressed, not the said colonials.....you getting my drift here?

I expect the natives in india to hate britain (but actually they dont, I have been there, have spoken to a lot of indians and former subjects of indian-potuguese rule, they have no hatred for the british...certainly nothing that compares to americas).

the fact is, the very people we sent to reinforce british rule in other lands are the one's crying foul, thats what sticks in the gut, and not the REAL oppressed natives.

 

[I think not]

"We don’t have British smugness, that’s one trait we left to you after 1776."

funniest thing I've heard in years!!!!! maybe we should ask the rest of the world who's the "smuggest" arrogent, egotistical nation in the world today, oh you picked that up strait away....down to the fact the people who founded your little nation were of the same class as those you claim to be "smug".

Actually what you perceive as arrogance and smugness is really indifference to what you have to say about anything. That’s all we need, having to listen to the world on how we conduct our affairs and interests.

my point about india was this: the british took india by devious, cruel manipulative mean, genocidal perhaps.......but, in india we set up some colonial from britain to reinforce the british empire in india, it was of course the indians who were the oppressed, not the said colonials.....you getting my drift here?

Nope. Unless you mean the Brits planted in the colonies and you’re referring to them as colonials.

I expect the natives in india to hate britain (but actually they dont, I have been there, have spoken to a lot of indians and former subjects of indian-potuguese rule, they have no hatred for the british...certainly nothing that compares to americas).

And since you have been to the US how many Americans have you met that hate the British? I would say none. It seems you have a need to be acknowledged as a civilizing force when in fact you were a conquering force. You didn’t do anybody any favors, you invaded lands and killed to expand your monarchists greed for more real estate and money, whatever you did, you did in the name of the monarchy and that’s it.

the fact is, the very people we sent to reinforce british rule in other lands are the one's crying foul, thats what sticks in the gut, and not the REAL oppressed natives.

Daz your historical arrogance is impressive, you’re actually suggesting or implying that in the end all the colonies being under British rule had everything to gain and nothing to lose because they couldn’t govern themselves anyway.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: The logic of Humanita

I Do enjoy this banter you and I have ITN...it passes the time when writing essays very quickly...cheers