The Legacy of Pierre Trudeau

[L Gilbert]

Anyway, there will always be judgemental, invasive, and bombastic sorts of people who would love to have say over everyone else's lives. Big deal. My original point was that Turdeau did some good for the country and some not so good. I can't think of any PM who was all bad or all good. I am damned sure he was a better class of politician and man than the Liberals who followed him into the PMO.

 

[Tonington]

Anyway, there will always be judgemental, invasive, and bombastic sorts of people who would love to have say over everyone else's lives. Big deal. My original point was that Turdeau did some good for the country and some not so good. I can't think of any PM who was all bad or all good. I am damned sure he was a better class of politician and man than the Liberals who followed him into the PMO.

You can say that again.

Or not. I guess the quote does the job nicely.

:lol:

 

[coldstream]

Since you haven't added anything new to the debate Tonnington, and you've stated you don't want me to be repetitive, i'm not sure i can respond with anything but what i have already said. This isn't the first time in history homosexuality has risen to legitimacy and its influence has pervaded society. It is an event that spells the end civilizations and epochs, of an exhaustion of the civilizing impulse. Somehow homosexuality always appears in Legitimate or Revered forms at those time..

I'd refer you to Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West. Spengler was true religious skeptic, if not an outright atheist. But no book has better articulated the collapse of civilizations in precise and objective terms. But you only have to look at history, or microcosms of history, to know that it is a profound phenomenon that marks the end of ages and societies. Quite frankly kreskin might be right. I have been astonished at how quickly the moral rigour of our society has collapsed.

Whether it is a symptom, or an propellant i'm not sure. But in no way is 'it' going to stop with what it has already achieved. I'm not sure that young people in their teens and twenties realize what is at stake. And i'm not sure anything that we do will stop the momentum that has been built. We seem to be beyond the point of no return. God help us all.

From Gilbert

Anyway, there will always be judgemental, invasive, and bombastic sorts of people who would love to have say over everyone else's lives

Surely you can do better than that Gilbert. Try to address the issues rather than attacking the messenger; you won't appear so damn shallow and ignorant. It's certainly more polite.. and courageous.. to address your remarks directly to whom you intend them, rather than throwing out some senseless blather into the aether.

 

[Kreskin]

He did some good media scrums. This one the FLQ crisis:

Putting the debate aside and not to say whether he was good or not based on this, if you haven't had a chance to watch the video it is worth checking out. In the serious situation of the moment he used a lot of humor and sarcasm. Quite fun to watch him.

 

[talloola]

Putting the debate aside and not to say whether he was good or not based on this, if you haven't had a chance to watch the video it is worth checking out. In the serious situation of the moment he used a lot of humor and sarcasm. Quite fun to watch him.

Yes, that was entertaining and a perfect example of trudeau, the passionate, and right
in your face prime minister. I know he wasn't perfect, but that side of him was refreshing, and I like it.

 

[Tonington]

Since you haven't added anything new to the debate Tonnington, and you've stated you don't want me to be repetitive...

Where did I say that? I thought I said to keep on keepin' on.

Not a very good dodge CS.

This isn't the first time in history homosexuality has risen to legitimacy and its influence has pervaded society. It is an event that spells the end civilizations and epochs, of an exhaustion of the civilizing impulse. Somehow homosexuality always appears in Legitimate or Revered forms at those time..

Which civilizations ended because of homosexuality? More interestingly, which epoch?

Whether it is a symptom, or an propellant i'm not sure. But in no way is 'it' going to stop with what it has already achieved. I'm not sure that young people in their teens and twenties realize what is at stake.

Well, we're far off from the Charter now, and Trudeau. But what the hell, what is at stake when a homosexual couple can marry? How is it any different for society than if they were cohabiting same sex couples?

 

[jimmoyer]

This isn't the first time in history homosexuality has risen to legitimacy and its influence has pervaded society. It is an event that spells the end civilizations and epochs, of an exhaustion of the civilizing impulse. Somehow homosexuality always appears in Legitimate or Revered forms at those time..
-----------------------------------------------Coldstream----------------------------------------------------

I wonder how Alexander The Great or his father did all that conquering with the band of brothers they had ?

Or Julius Ceasar's army ? Didn't it take another couple of centuries for the thesis posted above to take effect ?

Long lag time.

 

[coldstream]

Which civilizations ended because of homosexuality? More interestingly, which epoch?

Spengler's foil was primarily the Greco-Roman civilization. But he touched on others as well, Egyptian, Babylonian. And if you're going to paraphrase my post, Tonnington., please do it correctly. The widespread collapse of the founding morality, which is always religiously based (as is the founding inspiration for that civilization), and which is unarguably Judeo/Christian for the West has always been coincidental with the decline of that civilization.

His thesis went well beyond morality.. to science, technology and economy, to the Arts, to forms of governance, which always increasingly were centred in self contained, remote cliques (does it remind you of our courts), to primary social components, family, schools and community. All went through periods of intense confusion and rapid disorganization. Although you could rightly argue that homosexuality has always existed in all societies, it's validation and legitimization ONLY appeared during times of precipitous decline. A vibrant culture bound by its founding religion.. has NEVER accepted homosexuality as moral or natural.. in any Civilization in history. It is only when those religions are in decay, that suddenly this specific phenomenon appears in ever more credible forms. I have conceded that i don't know if it a symptom or propellant.. but my guess is a bit of both. And it is with us in spades now.

An epoch is defined as a span of time marked by specific characteristics, which makes it a subset of Civilizations, but take your choice of microcosms of history. A good one is the Nazi era in Germany. In the wake of their devastating loss in WW1, hyperinflation.. the national socialists were infused with both homosexual cults and the occult, and aggressively denied, in fact persecuted German faith based groups.. Jews and Christians.. and of course it died in flames. What we are dealing with now, is not limited to a specific region, or circumstances.. it something that is pervasive throughout the West.. civilizational is scope. .

And as far as lag time, jim, the end of the Greco Roman civilization likely occurred over a period of a couple of hundred years.. before the Barbarians were at the Gate. But technology, and especially communication, has sped things up dramatically in the modern era. Some would say the barbarians are already at our gate, and it is only about 3 or 4 decades since the jaws of collapse have started to bite with avengeance.

 

[jimmoyer]

All went through periods of intense confusion and rapid disorganization. Although you could rightly argue that homosexuality has always existed in all societies, it's validation and legitimization ONLY appeared during times of precipitous decline.
--------------------------------------------------Coldstream--------------------------------------------

Greece at its greatest and prior, on its rise to greatness, was a very male-bonding society.

Again you're on to something here. But your selective target homosexuality is misplaced.

It is society's licentiousness.

That's your culprit.

And it is not circumscribed so to speak by homosexuality alone. Look at Romania becoming the white orphan child adoption center to the world, where parents just dropped their kids off and left them, just like France during the Robespierre period. People were having babies and just walking away from them !! And look at Today's TV voyeurism of cheating, body worship, sexual tensions. There's no boundary here. Especially from the heteros or "breeders" !!!
And look at the medieval attitudes of males toward women in the Middle East? Healthy for their society? Or is it a long burning cancer and psychological torment ?

But also,
what you're on to here, is a behavior known as sexual addiction or sexual predatory behavior. This is a condition known to all genders and to all sexual proclivities. It's a non-stop assault.

It is sexual addiction or compulsion or sexual predatory behavior is really what you are describing. Great pain on the part of the perpertator and victims is what is going on.

That's why your concern on just homosexual behavior is selectively misplaced.

I can tell you stories.

But I'll bet you the women can really tell the stories.

The stats on women being pressured, raped, abused is a silent epidemic. I'll bet you that one out of 4 women will nod their heads with personal experience.

 

[coldstream]

I largely agree with that jim, You cannot certainly limit the effects of decline to homosexuality. It has, however, even though it afflicts a small percentage of the population, even in desperate times, become the flagship cause of this paradigm of disassembly.. and as such has to be addressed... and recognized for what it really is. It has nothing to do with human rights, it has to do with survival.

 

[jimmoyer]

You hit it, Coldstream, we were talking about the abrogration of rights, but now we are talking about emphasizing "what is right" rather that what "our rights" should be.

Here's something from recently departed Solzhenitsyn:



Quote:
CRISIS OF WESTERN CIVILISATION

People in the West have acquired considerable skill in using, interpreting and manipulating law, even though laws tend to be too complicated for an average person to understand without the help of an expert...

It is time, in the West, to defend not so much human rights as human obligations.

Destructive and irresponsible freedom has been granted boundless space. Society appears to have little defence against the abyss of human decadence, such as, for example, misuse of liberty for moral violence against young people, motion pictures full of pornography, crime and horror.

It is considered to be part of freedom and theoretically counter-balanced by the young people's right not to look or not to accept. Life organised legalistically has thus shown its inability to defend itself against the corrosion of evil.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7540077.stm

----------------------this is from Solzhenitsyn------courtesy of a post by Dancing-Loon------

 

[Kreskin]

One human obligation could be not telling people they're going to hell everytime we disagree with their lifestyle. That would be the mature and responsible thing to do. Another would be removing those swindlers off of evangelist TV programs. Rather than promote organized stealing people could be encouraged to retain their money and help themselves. I'll bet if we put it to a vote whether or not evangelists should be fundraising on television they'd be punted in a heartbeat.

 

[coldstream]

Destructive and irresponsible freedom has been granted boundless space. Society appears to have little defence against the abyss of human decadence, such as, for example, misuse of liberty for moral violence against young people, motion pictures full of pornography, crime and horror.

It is considered to be part of freedom and theoretically counter-balanced by the young people's right not to look or not to accept. Life organised legalistically has thus shown its inability to defend itself against the corrosion of evil.

Well i won't try to outdo this great writer. But if you want to look beyond homosexuality, Certainly the sexualization of our culture.. which is everywhere one looks now, is a major contributor to our current state. Spengler would have assigned that to fragmentation of the institution of marriage as the seat of constructive, morally continent sexuality. We are left with the stunning contradiction now, that in a society riddled with sexuality, all of it exploitive, much of it targeted at those a society holds most innocent, its children.. we have a birth rate that is far below replacement ratios.

Population collapse was a major focus for Spengler. We have managed to completely disassociate sexuality from procreation, as a societal ethos, and the family is increasingly seen as something of an economic convenience rather than the wellspring of generations. 'Inconvenient' infants are aborted, often late into the pregnancy, as an unwanted side effect of sexual indulgence.. the prime objective has become gratification of the senses.. certainly not kids.

This is where our modern age dovetails with the legitimization of homosexuality and especially homosexual 'marriage'. What more apt symbol to enfranchise gratuitous, futile decadence as a 'right'. No culture stands to last, once its fundamental building block, the family, is turned into a trivial convenience.. or an absurdity.. free of any responsibility in fostering new life. It is sign of the most profound distress and disarray.

Our confidence in the future has disappeared, we are living for the moment in the most decadent of carnivales . Take a good look at 'Pride Day' parades as a emblem for the cultural values of our time. Hundreds of thousands show up, all in the guise of 'tolerance'.. for a celebration of human misery. They are circus freak shows, the spectators not drawn by compassion, but by voyeuristic delight in leering at those caught up in self destructive debauchery.

We have merely contrived a legal rationale to replace a true sense of moral purpose... the essence and character of what we are now defining as legitimate and credible has not changed, we have only put a patina of respectability on something that is fundamentally corrupt... and that is something that definitely includes, but goes far beyond homosexuality.

 

[jimmoyer]

But if you want to look beyond homosexuality, Certainly the sexualization of our culture.. which is everywhere one looks now, is a major contributor to our current state...
----------------------------------Coldstream------------------------------------------------------

We do want to look beyond. Your selection of just homosexuality is mis-placed. As you can now see, the epidemic has no borders, no gender limits.

The culprit is licentiousness. As it has been throughout history.

Homosexuality is a scapegoat. Even an examination of history bears the fact that this licentiousness is not limited to homosexuality. You will notice the whole society was having a psychological breakdown. In fact you could argue that marriage allowed for homosexuals would welcome a more tame existence than the predatory behavior you note.

It is how we behave, not who our sexual objects are.

The answer to Solzhenitsyn's legitimate complaint is a cultural answer, one that holds high a better behavior, one that doesn't just espouse like a child, "you can't take my toy away. I have rights !!!"