The fairy tale of Americanism

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

fuzzylogix said:
I think the episode of South Park in which Cartman has a flashback to 1776 sums it up. America wants to be both a country that loves and protests war.


America is both messed up and great because of it's history. Of the Ultra orthadox like puritan's, who were also somewhat Libertarian in mind. Many oxeymorons with in the early American communities which wern't really apart of the Canadian culture and the French Canadian culture.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Defining Americanism

Since the tragic days of September 2001, people across the planet and North Americans in particular entertained considerations previously limited in a general sense to anthropology and academic study. Enculturation discrimination, ideology and cultural self-definition became topics of conversation and debate throughout America. For many in the United States the horror of the WTC attacks served as confirmation that American’s were living in a hostile world surrounded by enemies.

Fear of the “Red Menace” communism, had been robustly inculcated as pervasive ideological and cultural absolute within the American psyche for decades. On the eve of September 11/2001 acknowledgement of the decline and collapse of the Soviet Union’s form of “manifest destiny”, the conversion of every nation to communism with ultimate control over the individual emanating from the Kremlin faded substantially. Americans since the earliest days of the republic had embraced their own notions of Manifest Destiny however.

John O’Sullivan a journalist first coined the phrase in a 1845 newspaper editorial about the annexation of Texas in which he spoke of “America’s manifest destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence for the free development of our multiplying millions.”

At this early juncture the idea of manifest destiny was in large part limited in scope to the continental United States and served to express the belief among Americans of the time that it was “Gods will” that Americans supplant the pagan practices of natives in the west.

With Gods blessing of course this expansion and acquisition of territories by any means necessary (near eradication of the plains Indians) found acceptance among Americans. The godless communist hordes, not enjoying the seal of approval of the Maker were exercising evil when they made and actualized plans and policies to achieve a similar purpose of course.

This early somewhat dichotomous perspective to significant degree epitomizes the sub-current of identity conflict evident throughout American history and which remains alive and well today.

This identity conflict involves a denunciation of America’s historical roots in Europe, expressed as a rejection of all systems of monarchy while simultaneously adopting many facets of European philosophy and social structure.

Americanism is substantively a modification and iteration of the prevalent ethos of the early Roman Empire.

“Benjamin Franklin exemplified the idea of republican simplicity as American minister to France in the late 1770s. The emphasis was on the duty of the citizen to be virtuous, and to fight for his country as needed. Corruption was associated with aristocracy, which Americans increasingly condemned.”
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Republicanism in 1776 meant more than eliminating a king and instituting an elective system of government; it set forth moral and social goals as well. Republics required a particular sort of egalitarian and virtuous people: independent, property-holding citizens who were willing to sacrifice many of their private, selfish interests for the rest publica, the good of the whole community. Equality lay at the heart of republicanism; it meant a society whose distinctions were based only on merit. No longer would one's position rest on whom one knew or married or on who one's parents were.”
“The Founding Fathers ultimately recognized the reality of an American society composed of many conflicting private interests, but they hoped that these would neutralize themselves and allow enlightened leaders who were free of selfish marketplace concerns and local partisan interests to promote the general good.”
Answers.com

Whoops that didn’t work now did it!
Although rejecting monarchial government the United States has developed an aristocracy predicated not upon “Divine Right” or historical precedence, but emerging from the very fabric of a people who have placed greater importance and emphasis on individual/personal “rights”. America fought its most costly war (in terms of lives lost) the American Civl war over the percieved imbalance between state rights and the rights and authority of the federal government. Slavery while often identified as the precipitating event with respect to the American Civil war, was in the final analysis, simply a symbolic issue with the right to own slaves as expression of state autonomy abrasively confronting the federal authority seeking to wrest control (slave owenership) from the hands of state assemblies.
The Modern Aristocracy
“In 2004, the 20 percent of households with the lowest incomes received an average tax cut of $250; the middle 20 percent received an average tax cut of $1,090; and the top 20 percent were blessed with tax reductions averaging $78,460. A third of the tax breaks—which Bush wants to make permanent—goes to the top 1 percent of households, those with an average annual income of $1.2 million.”
An article in the February 21, 2000 issue of US News and World Report pointed out that the average income of the richest 5 percent of families in 1979 was 10 times of that of the poorest 20 percent of families. In 1999, the income gap had been enlarged to 19 times, ranking first among the developed countries, and setting a record since the Bureau of Census of the United States began studying the situation in 1947.
The income of the executives of the largest US companies in 1992 was 100 times that of ordinary workers, and 475 times higher in 2000.
According to an assessment by the US journal Business Week in August 2000, the income of chief executive officers was 84 times that of employees in 1990, 140 times in 1995, and 416 times in 1999.
A survey shows that the real income of the one-fifth richest of the families in Silicon Valley has increased 29 percent since 1992, while the real income of the one-fifth poorest of the families in the valley decreased during most of the 1990s, and the current income for the poorest has bounced back to the same level in 1992, with the employees at the lowest rank now earning 10 percent less than a decade age.
A great number of Americans suffer from poverty and hunger. According to the statistics of the US government, over 32 million citizens, or 12.7 percent of the total population of the country, live under the poverty line. The incidence of poverty is higher than in the 1970s, and higher than in most other industrialized countries.
An investigation by the US Department of Agriculture in March 2000 showed that 9.7 percent of American families did not have enough food, and at least 10 percent of families in 18 states and Washington D.C. often suffered from hunger and malnutrition.
In 1998, 37 million American families did not have enough food. In the state of New Mexico, 15.1 percent of the families were under threat of hunger.
The number of homeless Americans has continued to increase. A study in the mid-1990s showed that 12 million US citizens were or had been at some time homeless. According to a survey of 26 large cities conducted by the Conference of Mayors, the urgent demand for housing increased in two-thirds of the cities in 1999 over previous years.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/GeoRegions/NorthAmerica/china03.htm

Manifest Destiny on a Global Scale
On average, 2.3 million U.S. troops were on duty per year from 1950–2000. Of this average, 535,000 troops (23 percent of all military personnel) were deployed on foreign soil.
The Heritage Foundation

This (without some necessary expansion and explanation) is the “America” in “Americanism”.

A nation ruled by the wealthy with the acquisition of wealth and exercise of conspicuous consumption, as it’s highest ideal coupled with a preparedness to actualize its “Manifest Destiny” over the face of the entire planet.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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I think not

Wonderful response and it will take me some time to get through it...(very much like the labor demanded to get through my contributions)...

I wrote my most recent post prior to reading your excellent presentation so I will ask you to forgive my seeming inattention to your efforts.

Again thank you and I'll respond when I've digested it...

Thanks again.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

MikeyDB said:
I think not

Wonderful response and it will take me some time to get through it...(very much like the labor demanded to get through my contributions)...

I wrote my most recent post prior to reading your excellent presentation so I will ask you to forgive my seeming inattention to your efforts.

Again thank you and I'll respond when I've digested it...

Thanks again.

It's fine, if you can just keep your posts a bit shorter it might help, but don't let me discourage you.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
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I think not said:
Some people have difficulty finding anything wrong with America, while others can take hours, even days enumerating and dissecting America’s perceived flaws. The latter is in fact one of America’s greatest strengths, an unparalleled transparency of society and government made abundantly clear via airwaves.

This is very well put and its very openness also makes the US an appealing target as there is so much data to digest and scrutinize. What critics also forget is the level of accountability that exists in the US.

Since the tragic days of September 2001, people across the planet and North Americans in particular entertained considerations previously limited in a general sense to anthropology and academic study. Enculturation discrimination, ideology and cultural self-definition became topics of conversation and debate throughout America. For many in the United States the horror of the WTC attacks served as confirmation that American’s were living in a hostile world surrounded by enemies.

I don't know anyone in the Northeast who went insular after 9/11. There was a lot of talk to this effect in the south and in places like Montana where people thought they needed to be better armed. But there are farmers in Saskatchewan who think along the same lines. America can't really be reduced to one mentality and there are a lot of subcultures.

But New Yorkers who should have been most traumatized by 9/11 got up in the morning and got on the train. The same happened in London and Madrid.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

I think not said:
MikeyDB said:
I think not

Wonderful response and it will take me some time to get through it...(very much like the labor demanded to get through my contributions)...

I wrote my most recent post prior to reading your excellent presentation so I will ask you to forgive my seeming inattention to your efforts.

Again thank you and I'll respond when I've digested it...

Thanks again.

It's fine, if you can just keep your posts a bit shorter it might help, but don't let me discourage you.

Yeah, can you keep your posts to maybe six or seven words. Oh, and make sure those words are monosyllabic too, so I can follow along.

Thanks.

:)
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
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Response to I think Not

“Helping countries remove themselves from the shackles of tyranny”

If we accept your argument that the United States has intervened in and prosecuted military operations as means to defeating “tyranny” in other nations, would you agree that it’s appropriate to examine predicates to this tyranny and at a minimum observe what role America itself had in establishing that tyranny?

http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/supfacts/id447.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57782-2005Apr15.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/carter12112003.html

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=2288&C=2186

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/609/609p24.htm

A strong case can be made that American industry and machinations (covert and certainly otherwise) of the CIA in the name of “protecting” American “interests” have played significant roles in both establishing and maintaining the very “tyranny” of which you speak.

I’d be interested in reviewing any information you can provide demonstrating situations wherein the United States intervened militarily in nations where it did not have substantial financial investments and where there is a more clearly identifiable rationale for that intervention based on the “moral” issue of fighting tyranny absent from the inducement provided by American industry to “protect American interests”.

“…if “failing” to you means one hundred million people dead at the behest of murdering communist dictators, then what on earth would you refer to as a dark era in human history?”

Would it be fair to use juxtapose the millions killed by U.S. supported regimes across the planet to say nothing of those in Nicaragua, Haiti, various African states and those killed directly by U.S. forces in Viet Nam and other places around the globe?


“Most Presidents during the cold war opted for stability at the expense of liberty and democracy”

That stability they opted for included support for bloody dictatorships and wars that cost thousands if not millions of lives across the face of the planet. It Certainly is true that the United States remained “stable” through spending billions on arms and deploying thousands of service personnel to regions identified as critical to American “national security”…read where American corporations had set up shop!

I’m suggesting you step back for a moment and try to empathize with the people of a good two dozen nations who have suffered death and destruction at the hands of or in the name of American “prosperity”.
These are the elements that produce a living hatred in the minds of those who survived and it is that hatred that permeates the world we live in today.

“You’ll have to forgive me, I am tired of trying to explain to people the US and the world isn’t run by corporations.”

Nothing to forgive I Think not, quite simply you’re wrong.

Your contribution impresses me as originating from an individual of some learning and sophistication (if you would) however it is jingoistic to a fault. Now there’s nothing wrong per se with patriotism so long as that patriotism is not held as justification for committing murder and contorting historical fact to serve as defense of the indefensible. Behaviour and attitude prepared to exercise any and all means to secure some particular end is dangerously similar to the fanaticism of the religious fundamentalist and worthy of the same disdain.

It may present an over-ambitious effort on many peoples part to set aside their patriotic zeal and confront the facts for what they are as opposed to what various U.S. administrations would have them believe.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Hi Toro!

Ok I'll give it my best shot, but could you provide me with some ideas that will permit fairly complex ideas to be conveyed in five or six words? :)

And along with that instruction I'd appreciate if you'd tell me how to avoid the highly probable confusion and "reasoning" gaps that can occur when ideas aren't more exhaustively sketched out...:)

This "sound byte" kind of communications is tough but I like the American way of turning "light" to "lite" and so on, it saves a lot of time I suppose...
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
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Greetings Sanch!

I’d agree that there has been a degree of “openness” historically but it’s suffered after 9/11. That said if you think for a moment that the people of America got the straight goods on the Gulf of Tonkin incident, or were given the truth about WMD in Iraq or heard in timely fashion that Reagan and North were conducting business with America’s sworn enemy, or are advised of the details in an enormous number of international “incidents” which have occurred over the years, you’ve been bamboozled I’m afraid.

One of the great strengths of America is seen in incidents like Woodward’s exposure of the Watergate debacle, and it is appropriate given the call for constant vigilance by Jefferson that American’s not simply accept what their government tells them as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth! :)

Nixon didn’t lie to the American people……yeah OK!

The Bush administrations both H and W have well documented histories of massaging the truth prior to delivery to the masses.

And that’s not absolutely a bad or evil thing. What it does though is (now in spades so to speak) is cast doubt on the veracity of any communiqué coming out of the Whitehouse or the Pentagon.

If you surf the Web and visit the Johnson Library and Museum (to name one) you can find many sites that shed considerable light on the quality and character of the messages the American people are given by their government.

In Canada, Canadians have never enjoyed the latitude given reporters and media to report the news and we pay for our unwitting ignorance continually.

Stephen Harper is of course setting a new benchmark for media manipulation and it may well be a dark day for all Canadians to have this sycophant of industry’s hands on the faucet of government communications.

Nice to have you participating!