The fairy tale of Americanism

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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OK kids you want a seperate thread you've got it!

Just understand one thing if you can, I'm not looking to crap on America or Americans, what I'm interested in is exploring why and how we come to believe the things we do.

What external influences for example contribute to our wholehearted embrace of lies and exaggeration...

Lies that frequently are exposed and in some cases eventually admitted-to by those who just may have an agenda fueled by misdirection and falsehood.

Bring it!
 

fuzzylogix

Council Member
Apr 7, 2006
1,204
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I think the episode of South Park in which Cartman has a flashback to 1776 sums it up. America wants to be both a country that loves and protests war.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,336
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Das Kapital
Hmmm. Lie? Have most Americans had plastic surgery, with remander being gang members? I think this came from watching cops and extreme make-overs.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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I don't know, is it Major League Baseball?
 

aeon

Council Member
Jan 17, 2006
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Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

fuzzylogix said:
I think the episode of South Park in which Cartman has a flashback to 1776 sums it up. America wants to be both a country that loves and protests war.


That was a very funny episode.
 

aeon

Council Member
Jan 17, 2006
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MikeyDB said:
OK kids you want a seperate thread you've got it!

Just understand one thing if you can, I'm not looking to crap on America or Americans, what I'm interested in is exploring why and how we come to believe the things we do.

What external influences for example contribute to our wholehearted embrace of lies and exaggeration...

Lies that frequently are exposed and in some cases eventually admitted-to by those who just may have an agenda fueled by misdirection and falsehood.

Bring it!



Tv news, same for Newspapers and radio, the way it is presented, of course fox news is the extreme, but it is mainly in everywhere, where it is suppositly free, of course i am talking about major league here, not independant.

Tv series, like for exemple 24 hours with keifer sutherland, where they almost exposed why it is justified to spy on american people privates life.

Movies, not a single major movie, that was released in the last 5 or 6 years that criticized war, what we saw it is completly the opposite.Of course there was a tons of underground documentary, that criticized the war, 9-11 etcc, but only f9-11 of michael moore got the public.


is that what you meant, by external influence?
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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I just know a lot of folk are going to razz me for posting this long-winded intro, and that's OK, I deserve it because I'm not very good at making my remarks brief and I think its an enormous subject to think and talk about....

So here goes....please bear with me :)

For as long as the people of any nation have subscribed to a system of electoral process as vehicle to endow authority upon ruling bodies, that process has been plagued by corruption and dishonesty.

I’m not suggesting for a moment that the rule of self-declared tyrants or fanatics employing “beliefs” and/or threat and/or use of violence and destruction to achieve their aims (authority to govern) is either a reasonable or even remotely desirable alternative. An electoral process capable of actualizing equality with fairness employing justice and integrity as cornerstones of its foundation is the more prudent course.

Justice integrity and fairness cannot be served however when wealth and the power born of wealth embraced within the electoral concept is abused. The facility to influence large numbers of voters through manipulation of media in addition to chicanery in the form of meting-out wealth, promises of prosperity, establishing hierarchies of status and reserving exclusive access to potential for self-sufficiency and independence have been and are the hallmarks of an electoral system that has established a chasm of injustice and inequity of vast proportions between the financial elites of any society and the greater majority of its citizens.

It is a systemic problem and a problem that can only be addressed through examining the predicates to injustice prejudice and inequality that plague our “democratic” societies.

Why is it for instance that it is only when the moneyed of any democratic society seek to expand their influence and control over others that moral concepts and some “ineffable” ‘higher-purpose’ is cited as rationale for sending the young people of any society off to die in war?

Why is it that there’s so little acknowledgement for instance that no one can remain isolated and insulated against conflicts that embroil millions across the face of the planet? Regardless of citizenship we all breathe the same air and drink the same water.

Why is it that some societies choose to enslave others on the basis of race or beliefs and exhibit a preparedness to abandon their subscription to values like tolerance and compassion and instead conduct ever-escalating acts of genocide and self-destruction while practicing inhumane atrocities as mechanisms enroute to establishing and maintaining “power”?

It is perhaps an indictment of all of humanity arising from the very nature of who and what we are as living beings. Is there a kernel of self-interest blossomed into the exercise of greed and cruelty that compels us to disdain for the lives of others?

We could examine just about any nation-entity from the ancient Greeks to the French to the British and Spanish and so on in our exploration however the great impediment we’d confront in using this examination of history is that our examination would by its very nature be influenced to some degree by various interpretations and the biases accompanying them.

We have the current dynamic of the United States and its immediate history beginning let’s say at the end of WWI to present day that we can access in our examination. I suggest this as our subject only because there are many people alive today who’ve been participants in this construct and experienced its evolution over a significant time.

Are there additional “players” to be necessarily considered as we explore this dynamic?

Indeed there are.

Are there examples among the societies of mankind that we can identify as having failed or are in the process of failing because those societies subscribed to self-defeating philosophies and an ethos that purposefully ignored and ignores the larger dynamic?

Certainly.

Let me present a proposition for your consideration.

We have watched as socialism has sputtered and failed in Russia and as it morphs in China; we have witnessed the collapse of dictatorships and grudgingly acknowledge the role capitalism has played in establishing supporting and maintaining dictatorships from Marcos and Pinochet to Somoza and Suharto as well as countless others.

The question begging for an answer is, how can a world power, a “super-power” synthesize its support of brutal regimes around the world with its avowed and robustly expressed position in support of freedom and self-determination?

Quite simply it can’t.

Or more precisely, wealthy industrialists and individuals who’ve achieved positions of power and authority consistently defer to their personal needs and philosophies regardless of consequence or outcomes affecting the poor the disenfranchised and the weak.

The United States represents a dichotomy of sorts, wherein tremendous generosity and great compassion exists right beside embedded prejudices of race and religion, subscription to moral theses that raise preservation of life and well being to lofty heights and moral ambiguity that declares a gallon of gasoline or a chord of lumber of greater importance than peoples lives.

The United States has elected, when its industrialists and power-brokers feel it necessary to suspend human rights and ignore international agreements and laws. At the same time no other nation on the face of the planet can lay claim to the overwhelming generosity the United States has exhibited time and again.

There is something wrong in America, and the way we can tell there’s something wrong is by surveying the huge numbers of poor and desperate folk in America. We can attempt to understand exactly why the land of promise that America once was has become a nation feared and scorned by many, but we can only come to fruitful meaningful and accurate conclusion if we are prepared to deal honestly and objectively with the facts we can establish to agree upon.

If you want to discuss this issue, I’ll give it my best shot, but let us deal in fact and not fantasy, in truth and not conjecture. Canada is a land of great promise hobbled by climate and a much smaller population living in a nation even larger than the United States. Some comparisons are valid and indeed appropriate however we must exercise some care in making comparisons.

I promise to be civil to those who practice civility and will make every effort to frame criticisms and opposing perspectives courteously and hope that you will too.
 

Swifty

New Member
May 19, 2006
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6
MikeyDB said:
OK kids you want a seperate thread you've got it!

Just understand one thing if you can, I'm not looking to crap on America or Americans, what I'm interested in is exploring why and how we come to believe the things we do.

What external influences for example contribute to our wholehearted embrace of lies and exaggeration...

Lies that frequently are exposed and in some cases eventually admitted-to by those who just may have an agenda fueled by misdirection and falsehood.

Bring it!








What external influences for example contribute to our wholehearted embrace of lies and exaggeration...

For myself it was "Bugs Bunny" that influenced me about America.
Still know other cartoon that can beat it. :)



why and how we come to believe the things we do.

Two words: Circumstances / Survival
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Hi Toro!

I suppose it's a combination of factors like for instance If we examine the geopolitical dynamic of our times, would you agree that it is America that tops the chart in terms of effect? Also (now perhaps this is a faulty assumption on my part) but I'm going ahead with it, because virtually every newspaper, the vast majority of electronic media i.e TV and radio etc., it is America that is the focus of world attention. I'd also suggest that the well recorded history (recent history) of change in America's foreign policies provides a table of reference that many folk regardless of their nationality are apt to simpy be more familiar with than some others.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Greetings Swifty!

Circumstances and survival eh?

Would survival encompass the idea that America (and Canada for that matter) have an implicit entitlement to cheaper gas than every other nation on earth (except for Saudi Arabia and a few others of course)???

What's happening in the world is more than a struggle for survival and although one might argue that "survival of ones "lifestyle" is a facet of survival as a general concept, the survival of everyone is placed in precarious balance when you consider that the United States has more nuclear weapons (and is perhaps prepared to use them) and has already demonstrated this preparedness during WWII.

Now I know that many believe that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were "necessary" but the point is that the nation with the killing power of the United States appears to be on a course that may invite or at least precipitate conflict with many...Iran North Korea etc.
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Toro

Care to comment on my response to Swifty?

Do you think it's reasonable to put America in the twenty-first century on equal footing with say the British empire when Brittania ruled the waves???
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

MikeyDB said:
Would survival encompass the idea that America (and Canada for that matter) have an implicit entitlement to cheaper gas than every other nation on earth (except for Saudi Arabia and a few others of course)???

America doesn't have cheaper gas. The reason why Americans pay less at the pump compared to Canadians or Europeans is because America doesn't tax it as much. But that's not "cheaper". That's merely a choice of wealth distribution. In many countries, including China, gasoline is subsidized by the government.

MikeyDB said:
What's happening in the world is more than a struggle for survival and although one might argue that "survival of ones "lifestyle" is a facet of survival as a general concept, the survival of everyone is placed in precarious balance when you consider that the United States has more nuclear weapons (and is perhaps prepared to use them) and has already demonstrated this preparedness during WWII.

The survival of "everyone" is not in a precarious balance. The precarious balance of survival applies to a few, in particular those who threaten the United States.

Besides, there will be no war with North Korea and there will be no war with Iran. Countries that are serious about developing nuclear weapons do not stand on top of rooftops and shout their intention at the top of their lungs with a bullhorn.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: The fairy tale of Americanism

MikeyDB said:
Toro

Care to comment on my response to Swifty?

Do you think it's reasonable to put America in the twenty-first century on equal footing with say the British empire when Brittania ruled the waves???

No.

America has no interest in maintaining an empire. This is especially true after America's experience in Iraq. Americans are not interested.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
Helping countries remove themselves from the shackles of tyranny has found a new definition from present day elitists; it’s called American Imperialism. or American Manifest Destiny (short the land acquisitions). Apparently this version of American Imperialism has morphed from the days of the French, when they sought to “export” their political virtues without the benefits of liberty, or the British Empire, according to the British, had a talent of government organization, the only catch was they had to occupy and rule the foreign lands under the yoke of colonialism. And most notably in recent years, the Soviet Union backed by a utopian belief system that plunged tens of millions into poverty and totalitarian rule under omnipotent states. While the elitists in Europe ignored the “walls of Europe”, American Presidents asked for them to be dismantled, pseudo-imperialism for sure or was it greed?

But of course, all this is history and left to the revisionists to ponder the morality of American intervention. Today, the world’s only “superpower” has, in the eyes of many, become the most anti-democratic force in the world, spreading not freedom and democracy, but McDonalds, Exxon and Jesus.

MikeyDB said:
We have watched as socialism has sputtered and failed in Russia and as it morphs in China; we have witnessed the collapse of dictatorships and grudgingly acknowledge the role capitalism has played in establishing supporting and maintaining dictatorships from Marcos and Pinochet to Somoza and Suharto as well as countless others.

Socialism “failing” is putting it rather mildly, if “failing” to you means one hundred million people dead at the behest of murdering communist dictators, then what on earth would you refer to as a dark era in human history? The dictatorships you speak of were the stabilizing force at the expense of liberty and democracy but necessary to halt the expansion of communism. Moral? Certainly not. Reality of the world? I would think so.

MikeyDB said:
The question begging for an answer is, how can a world power, a “super-power” synthesize its support of brutal regimes around the world with its avowed and robustly expressed position in support of freedom and self-determination? Quite simply it can’t.

Of course it can, and I believe you (like many others) look at it through a narrow lens. Most Presidents during the cold war opted for stability at the expense of liberty and democracy as I mentioned above, which basically meant backing up military juntas, particularly in Latin America. There was such a thing as a communist threat (if you believe the implementation of communism in the 20th century spread misery, despair and murder throughout the world). What say you about America’s lost wars in the 20th century? Vietnam for example, millions of people dead from all sides and the result have been millions enslaved under communist rule. Would they have been better off left alone?

MikeyDB said:
Or more precisely, wealthy industrialists and individuals who’ve achieved positions of power and authority consistently defer to their personal needs and philosophies regardless of consequence or outcomes affecting the poor the disenfranchised and the weak.

An undemocratic and poor nation is inherently anti-capitalistic and at odds with the interests of wealthy industrialists and corporations, so I’m not quite sure what you’re driving at.

MikeyDB said:
The United States represents a dichotomy of sorts, wherein tremendous generosity and great compassion exists right beside embedded prejudices of race and religion, subscription to moral theses that raise preservation of life and well being to lofty heights and moral ambiguity that declares a gallon of gasoline or a chord of lumber of greater importance than peoples lives.

The United States since its very inception represents a dynamic society never content with the status quo, constantly seeking to reinvent itself. Slavery, civil war, segregation, ghettoization, separation of church and state have all been manifestations of a country seeking to correct imbalances in society and put it on a path of progressive reforms. As for your gasoline people analogy, I find it shameful that you would attach a negative human emotion to a passport. I think it’s time you get off your horse. I thought you wanted to keep this civil?

MikeyDB said:
The United States has elected, when its industrialists and power-brokers feel it necessary to suspend human rights and ignore international agreements and laws. At the same time no other nation on the face of the planet can lay claim to the overwhelming generosity the United States has exhibited time and again.

You’ll have to forgive me, I am tired of trying to explain to people the US and the world isn’t run by corporations.

MikeyDB said:
There is something wrong in America, and the way we can tell there’s something wrong is by surveying the huge numbers of poor and desperate folk in America. We can attempt to understand exactly why the land of promise that America once was has become a nation feared and scorned by many, but we can only come to fruitful meaningful and accurate conclusion if we are prepared to deal honestly and objectively with the facts we can establish to agree upon.

Some people have difficulty finding anything wrong with America, while others can take hours, even days enumerating and dissecting America’s perceived flaws. The latter is in fact one of America’s greatest strengths, an unparalleled transparency of society and government made abundantly clear via airwaves.